How much chain can a CD 25 carry comfortably

[cmetzenberg]

i'm in the market for more chain. I found this http://www.ebay.com/itm/321236797979?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I asked the guy about quality and her wrote me "i How are you! Actually, we authorize the factory make chain according to our technical specification and control quality by ourselves, we witness factories make for us according to the request process, so, we are technical control and they just make for us only, we inspect each process in the factory."

What are your thoughts guys? should i buy it?

 

[thataway]

There is a reason that 7: 1 scope is considered ideal (more would be better). That is that R. Danforth designed his anchors for that scope, to have the proper angle for the set of the flukes at 32.5 degrees to the shank of the anchor.

The "Scope" should include the distance from the bow roller to the water as well as the depth of the water at the highest tide to be expected.

1: 1 scope, would be 10 feet of rode in 10 feet of water--probably not work well.

Boris may have looked at chain in 30 knots. It would still have significant catenary. When you get to 50 knots it is almost gone. By 90 knots, the chain is bar tight--and any catenary effect is gone-- ( for any purpose it is gone at 50 knots)--the addition of a weight (Kellet) along the chain would not be of much aid at 50 knots. I dove on a chain when the wind was steady at 70 knots gusting to 87 knots--no sag that could be noted.

I do disagree on the practice of not backing down on a line. Even at Powell this last week, I let the full force of the boat come back with the engine in reverse, before I made my final "run for the beach"..That way I knew that the anchor was well set. We had 40 knots of wind on one occasion, and the last night I anchored, I guess the anchor load to be in excess of 500 lbs on the anchor during some of the gusts. (I had two spring lines--one from each side of the boat to take the load off the primary rode, and avoid chafe. The problem is that one can never know when that gust of wind is going to come along, and cause the anchor to drag.

In cases it may be acceptable to let out full scope, back down hard, be sure the anchor is set--and then shorten up on the scope. I do agree that the first boat in an anchorage sets the precident for anchoring in that anchorage. If there are folks on 2: 1 or 3:1 scope--I will go elsewhere--or preferable go stern to the shore, and have my safe amount of scope. As to Power Squadron 3:1 scope--This is not accepted practice for people who cruise the world--and whose safety of their boats depends on their anchoring skills.

Weight in the bow: It is not desirable to put excess weight of the boat; it will cause hobby horsing, it will hold the bow down, when you want it to lift during going down wind and waves.

My C dory 22 came with 100 feet of chain (Cutter Marine)--I removed that, and went to 50 feet of chain, and 300 feet of Brait (1/2")--I have another 500 feet of anchor rode aboard, for stern anchors, to the shore, rocks/trees etc.

On my large cruising boats I had 200 feet of chain, backed with 400 feet of nylon rode on the primary anchors. This would allow safe anchoring in over 100 feet of water.

As for sleeping when anchoring--you develop a sense when things are not right. There may be rare occasions when an "Anchor watch" needs to be stood. Generally I wake up several times a night for "nature"--and take a look around--not just the anchor, but other boats, and critters of all types. A couple weeks ago, I saw a silent figure (Jay) paddling along in his powered kayak, and come to the aid of a McGreagor 26 whose stern was on the beach/rocks--and he took the anchor out a goodly distance and set it for them! (That was not the only boat he saved from poor anchoring technique during the gathering...)

 

[Hunkydory]

1: 1 scope, would be 10 feet of rode in 10 feet of water--probably not work well. ..)

other stuff clipped
Bob, you of course are absolutely correct & though I posted earlier I would not hesitate to anchor at a 1-1 scope, I would in actuality never do it or recommended anyone else to either. It was a improperly thought threw statement, that I realized just as I was going to bed late this evening & in the process of going back to this thread to correct, I found you had already noticed my error.

Thanks,

Jay

 

[RobLL]

I dove on a chain when the wind was steady at 70 knots gusting to 87 knots--no sag that could be noted.

Somehow I think there may be a story behind this some of us would like to hear.

 

[Clewless]

(I had two spring lines--one from each side of the boat to take the load off the primary rode, and avoid chafe.) The problem is that one can never know when that gust of wind is going to come along, and cause the anchor to drag.

I'd be interested to get the details of how these spring lines were attached.

 

[cmetzenberg]

Just want to make one quick point on this topic; line on bottom contact. Chain the bottom is great! line on the bottom can get really bad really quick, i've seen this go bad for some weekend warriors out at santa cruz island before. If you're line get wrapped around a rock it can easily chafe through with a boat surging back and forth on it. So regardless of of your chain/line ratio and depth/rode ratio; keep the line off the bottom or it wont really matter.

 

[cmetzenberg]

also i'm not a fan of leaving my line in the groove of the wildcat. I like to take the line off the windless and put on the cleat. I was just looking at the stock mounting of the windless on Kanaloa, I think i'm going to put a stainless/ aluminium backer plate on it; those washers looked scrawny to me.

 

[Sunbeam]

Alexander,

I'm sorry about this "chain origin" sidetrack to your thread; I hope it hasn't kept you from getting the information you sought. I didn't mean to "hijack" originally -- it's just that it was stated that ACCO chain was made or galvanized in China, and I had to look into that as to me it's a serious thing, since I did not want to buy China-made chain (especially not at ACCO prices), but I had bought ACCO chain, because I thought it was made in the U.S.A.

Anyway, I received a PM this morning from someone who though that the information I got from ACCO was from a press release, and so somewhat doubted its authenticity (because, okay, press release, I understand that). However, the information I received was not a press release, but was in the form of .pdf documents which were copies of their catalog pages. So a bit more "legit" in my book. I wanted to clarify that since it obviously wasn't in my earlier posts.

Now, can I prove the chain is made in the USA? No. Maybe there is a way, but I'm not going to to there with a metallurgy kit at this time (much as I'd love to be in Winona for fall colors right now! I can almost taste the carameled apples ). There is nothing wrong with being skeptical and checking into things (I do it all the time), but the catalog and the e-mail from Peerless in Winona are good enough for me at this point in time. I'm going to post them here and in my album so that others can see the source and make their own judgements.

Note that the first three pages are "ACCO" branded chain. The circled part shows the "Made in America" plus the US flag for all three of ACCO's marine chain types (G43/G30/BBB). The last two pages are "Boatman's Pride" branded chain. It is made in China, according to Peerless. The circles and "China" writing are from my contact at Peerless (named earlier in thread). These pages are also in my album in the "Ground tackle" sub-album.

 

[cmetzenberg]

at what point do we sacrefice quality for cost. 5.50 american vs 1.80 chinese. The galvanic coating wont hold up as long but for that price it probably makes for sense to just replace the cheap chain. I'm not really worried about the chain failing for my setup; the line or cleat will part/ rip off/ chafe before the chain fails.

 

[Sunbeam]

at what point do we sacrefice quality for cost. 5.50 american vs 1.80 chinese.

I would say each person should buy what they are comfortable with. To me the main thing is just having the data so I can make an informed decision, whichever way I decide to go.

For me it's well worth it to buy the ACCO for the relative peace of mind it gives me, and because I want American-made chain to still be available next time I go chain shopping. I like to anchor and trusting my ground tackle setup is important to me.

My whole 45' of 1/4" G43 ACCO chain (25' on main rode; 20' on secondary rode), plus US made shackles, at today's prices ($3.29 a foot for 1/4" G4), cost about the same as one fill-up of the boat gas tanks, and that's fine by me -- but that's not to say anyone else should make the same choices. One thing I really like about boating: It's one of the remaining places where, for the most part, each person can make their own choices and sail as they see fit. Yay for choice.

Sunbeam

PS: And that's not to say I don't economize in some areas - I pick and choose like most folks.

 

[Lost Petrel]

cost about the same as one fill-up of the boat gas tanks

Great way to put perspective on it Sunbeam. Because most of my cruising areas tend to be places where one has to be pretty self-sufficient, I want the best available in gear. Likewise I want the better quality to be available in the future, so too will buy American (or wherever quality is coming from).

 

[Alexander]

No sweat Sunbeam, we all learned something from the great discussion. Having been in the Peerless plant in Winona several times and having watched their processes in action , I believe they really make chain in America, but to be competitive in the market they must need cheeeeep stuff too. I'll buy ACCO and for what it's worth, Jamestown Distributers in RI have the best prices I can find but I don't know about shipping costs yet.

 

[Sunbeam]

No sweat Sunbeam, we all learned something from the great discussion.

Thanks for letting me know - I felt a bit guilty about the major tangent.

Having been in the Peerless plant in Winona several times and having watched their processes in action

That's pretty neat. If/when I get back to that area, I may try to take a tour.

Jamestown Distributers in RI have the best prices I can find but I don't know about shipping costs yet.

I shop at Jamestown on a regular basis - good folks. That said, I bought my chain through Defender (more good folks). At least at the time (2012) they had a good price including shipping (I was in the PNW when I bought it). Another place to check, anyway.

 

[thataway]

Galvanizing chain: The factory "galvanizing" is about 10 mil thickness. Hot dip galvanizing is about 30 mil. Guess which one lasts longer. I had to re-do ARCO chain after less than an year's use--the next hot dip was still good after 3 more years of similar service.

It does pay to have a chain re-galvanized--if you live in a state which allows galvanizing to be done. The cost of shipping can be a killer. It is not the galvanizing which would put me off on Chinese chain. I have seen both mild steel, hardened steel and SS steel Chinese fittings fail under very low loads, due to bad metallurgy, and manufacturing practices. For that reason I would not trust any boat or my life to these products.

The fitting of spring lines or snubbers: (chain--with a SS plate, or chain hooks (less desirable). I have two 20 foot 5/16" nylon lines which I tie to the main 1/2" Brait rode, with taught line (or rolling ) hitches. These are taken to two additional cleats I put on the very outside of the deck just foreword of the aft leg of the bow pulpit.

The story behind diving on a chain in high winds: We were anchored in the lee of Cabo Santa Elena, Costa Rica, in the Gulf of Papagayo. The wind had shifted several times and initially we anchored right off the beach, then in the lee of an Island: ( Isla San Jose), and at 3 AM we moved back to shoal water off the beach. The water depth was only 10 feet, and good sand holding. I had both a Danforth HT and a CQR set and holding well. I saw a a great chance to dive on the anchor and rodes when in high wind velocity. I worked my way down the lines and chain. (50 feet of chain, with 5/8" nylon rode on the Danforth, which was the secondary bow anchor, and 200 feet of chain (backed with 400 feet of 5/8" nylon) on the primary CQR plow). Both anchors were fully buried, as was the terminal part of the chain. From the buried point to the boat was bar tight. Sighting along the chain, as best as possible, it appeared to be straight.

 

[Sunbeam]

We were anchored in the lee of Cabo Santa Elena, Costa Rica, in the Gulf of Papagayo.

I once spent a week or so trying to get past that gulf - brutal! "They" always talk about the Gulf of Tehuantapec (which can be very rough, no doubt) but for me the Papagayo happened to be worse. However in our case, by the time we got to Cabo Santa Elena the weather was good; it was above there where we had it rough.

The Tehuantapec was like glass for the most part (we waited for that window) and full of turtles floating and resting. Super cool!

Good times

Sunbeam

PS: Good point about the metallurgy. I'd prefer excellent galvanizing, but the main thing is not to have a "surprise!" break due to sub-par metal. I can keep an eye on galvanizing if I have to.

 

[tsturm]

I use 100' of 1/4" ACCO chain & 400' of 1/2" three strand.


:thup :wink:

 

[Alexander]

Well, the learning just never ends. I have learned from a conversation with Lewmar tech that my limiting factor is not the ability of my CD 25 to carry enough chain to let me sleep at night but the windlass itself. I have a Simpson Lawrence Horizon 400 horizontal which was discontinued in 2005, (my boat is 2004). There are no parts available for it. This includes the plastic gypsy. Plastic gypsyies don't like large amounts of chain as it wears them much faster than rope both from abrasion as well as handling more weight than they are designed for. If it breaks or wears out I'll have to replace the windlass. So, compromises must be made. The 2 previous owners only put 400 hrs on this rig in 10 yrs so I think I can assume that they were not hard on the windlass also. It looks like new and shows no signs of excessive wear. My new plan is to install a compromise rode consisting of 25-30' of 1/4" chain which will allow me to use all chain in the water for 90% of our likely anchorages (Florida) and back it up with 100' of 1/2" nylon which can be added to easily if needed. When the windlass dies we'll rethink the set up. Avoiding $1000 vs changing my old habits is a no brainer for me.

 

[Sunbeam]

I learned something, too. I never knew there was a windlass with a plastic gipsy (who ever thought that was a going to be a good idea?).

I remember Florida as being pretty shallow, but it's still funny to hear "30' of chain and I'll be able to anchor with all chain most of the time." Actually, with small amounts of rode like that going in and out, no windlass wouldn't be that bad (relatively speaking) (not saying you shouldn't have one though).

I'm curious: When you were saying the rope could be easily added to, did you mean without using the windlass (i.e. just adding the more rope after the main rode is out)? Or is there a rope-to-rope splice go through the windlass okay? I've only ever used a windlass with chain, so this may be common knowledge.

If nothing else, this will give you more insight than you have now into how you tend to use the boat, and what you might want in your next windlass (vs. just buying one now).

Thanks for letting us know - I always enjoy follow up.

Sunbeam

 

[Alexander]

Frankenstein was the result of a boat project gone bad.
I'm now thinking that my present working windlass probably has some value on Craigslist now while it's working well so I think I'll replace it and quit worrying about it. Now trying to chose it's replacement. Lewmar 700 verticle, Lewmar 700 horizontal, or Lewmar pro sport 550. I had a 700 verticle on the Mainship pilot I just sold and loved it. It worked great with 100' all chain set up. It's also $200 cheaper than the horizontal version and has less stuff on deck I think the pro sport 550 is the replacement for the old horizon 400 and 600 series and has plastic casing above deck and maybe the gypsy too so It's my last choice. I'm going to measure for the verticle model tomorrow.

 

[Sunbeam]

I like your current line of thinking: Get the right one, the rode you want, and be done with it.

I did some reading and thinking before I bought the windlass I have yet to install. I got the Lewmar 700 horizontal. Although the tidy appearance of the vertical on deck was very appealing, I just couldn't totally convince myself that the vertical was going to make all its twists and turns without some "help," and I want to be able to boat solo with as little running below to assist the rode as possible. I spoke with two C-Brats who have the vertical (on a 22 and on a Cape Cruiser 23). The 22 fellow would go horiontal if doing it again (or no windlass), and although the 23 owner really likes the vertical windlass, he did say his crew has to "help" the rode down sometimes, and that if he wanted it to be a bit more self-stowing, he'd probably go with the horizontal.

I think the thing that might make the vertical one a bit more fussy on a 22 is that there is really minimum fall if you look at their recommended chart and compare it to the anchor locker -- especially as the rode piles up and the locker fills. The horizontal fares better in this respect. I would guess maybe the 25 has more fall though? Might be one thing to check.

Too, I'm used to manual horizontal windlasses, so the horizontal part just "makes sense" to me. It is a chunk o' metal on the deck though, and - at least on the 22 - somewhat disrupts the fair lead of a line coming over the roller and back to the cleat (not that you would necessarily leave a line that way over a long time period anyway). I imagine there are quite a few C-Brats who have the vertical and love it.

I don't know if it's available for the vertical (or even if it interests you), but for the horizontal Lewmar makes a wireless remote. I saw Jay of Hunky Dory using one at Powell last year and was instantly hooked, even though I usually stay away from gadgets. Haven't used it yet though, so can't report on actual experience. I think the remote can be fitted as long as the windlass has a "contactor" (the horizontal does).

One note on the Pro Sport 550, that might make it more or less desirable for your boat: It has the gipsy on port side, whereas the 700/1000 horizontal have it on the starboard side. I'm more used to it on starboard, so that was a point for the 700. But if your current windlass has the gipsy to port, maybe it would work better for the new holes, etc.

Sunbeam