Honda Carbureted Motor Opinions?

A

afglobemaster

New member
Looking for thoughts, experiences, and opinions on early 2000s carbureted Honda motors.

Noticed the 90 is a popular motor on Dory 22s around this time, but the mechanic advice I got locally was these motors suffer from Carb issues and could possibly need to have the carbs rebuilt every year after sitting winterized for 4 months. Even if I were to use stabil, non-ethanol, and starve the engine of fuel after each use. Also, pretty much said I'd have to get a new motor if I were to resell the boat to make it desirable ...

Do these motors carry that type of stigma to where folks shy away from buying boats that have them?

Thanks!

Joe
 
The older carbureted Honda 90 engines have a good service record. You can't leave them sit around without treating the ethanol laced fuel with a fuel stabilizer. We use Blue Marine Stabil when ever using ethanol laced gasoline in anything we own besides our cars. Running the engine dry of fuel and draining the float bowls seems to be a proven method to prevent carbs from getting gummed up. The newer engines have a higher alternator output along with being fuel injected. I seem to remember reports the carborated engines having over 8000 hours on them. A lot depends on how the boat would be used. Buying a proven engine used would not stop me from the purchase. Just establish a procedure to deal with the ethanol or find fuel with out it. Buying a new motor for an older boat makes it more sellable but I'm not sure the end return would merit the expense. My 2 cents
D.D.
 
I have a 2003 Honda 50 on my boat. It's been in storage since last October and I pulled it out last week. It fired up on one crank and I have done nothing to the carbs except what the manual says. I have never had a problem with it. I throw an additive in the gas to keep it fresh and drain the carbs in October when I put it away. It has started up every time so far.

Al
 
We have two carbureted 2006 Honda 40's on our 22 with about 1150 hours. Before longer term storage, i.e. 3-4 months, we run them dry, with sea foam in the fuel, drain the carburetor bowls and use blue stabil in the fuel. Just one carburetor needed a little work at about 800 hours. We are careful to flush with fresh water after every use and run salt-away through them every 2nd or 3rd use. Would I rather have fuel injected? Sure but these engines are doing just fine with a little preventative maintenance.
 
If it has a carb, then you need to keep your fuel fresh, and run stabilizer in it religiously. I sweeten things with Seafoam as well, to keep things clean on the inside.
Boats especially, seem to end up with more old fuel then they should in the tanks. Most folks don't recommend running the tanks to low. This results in a chance for the phase separation from the ethanol added fuels to accumulate at the bottom. The alcohol absorbs water. That, and the fuel blends nowadays because of regs, is where the trouble starts. Most fuel will start breaking down, in as little as a month.

If you use just a bit of prudence, and remember that the Honda carbs are set up to be super efficient, so they have small passages and jets, you'll be fine. The Onan genie we used to have on an RV, required running under a load for 30 minutes a month. They meant it.
I draw my tanks down with a siphon, at least once a year, and then refill with fresh fuel and stabilizer like the Stabil blue, and add Seafoam as well. The fuel I siphon off, I use in my lawn mowers, and car and truck.

Even FI cars and trucks can have issues with the ethanol added fuels, if they sit long enough. I've had problems with my 2010 Ford F150, because I was riding my Yamaha and not driving it. I didn't move it for close to 10 weeks last year. I've learned to run Seafoam in it as well.

If you do the preventive maintenance, rotate the fuel, and put them to bed with stabilizer in the fuel, you shouldn't have any issues. The more you use a boat, the better it likes it. :)
 
afglobemaster":uhamt7cr said:
...the mechanic advice I got locally was these motors suffer from Carb issues and could possibly need to have the carbs rebuilt every year after sitting winterized for 4 months. Even if I were to use stabil, non-ethanol, and starve the engine of fuel after each use.
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I have two carbed engines, a Yamaha 80 and a Honda 8. So not exactly what you are asking about, but same principle. I see something that may missing from your (mechanic's?) list, and that may be making the difference. I just can't tell by the way it is worded. At any rate, for layup type storage, just running the engine dry of fuel is not enough, because fuel will still sit and deteriorate in the carb(s). To avoid that one needs to drain the carbs as well. On my 80, that means removing the cowling and turning four screws, while holding up a rag to catch the dribbles. On the Honda there is a dedicated pipe where the fuel drains to the outside, so it is easier. But neither is hard, and although it is an additional step, there are so many other steps to properly putting a boat away that percentage-wise I don't find it to add much work or time.

Is the equivalent boat with an older/carbed engine worth the same amount as a newer one with an injected engine? I'd say no, but then one wouldn't expect to pay as much, either. I'd say my boat would have been priced just about exactly the additional amount of a re-power if it had had a newer engine. So the way I look at it, I got the Yamaha 80 for free (52 hours on it), and can re-power any time I want, with a new engine of my choice (or keep running the 80 and leave the money in the bank).

I did have all four carbs rebuilt (included in above figures) when I bought the boat, but that is because it had not been run in *years* Also I don't know if the carbs were drained - I suspect not. Possibly I could have gone with just a cleaning, but I wanted to completely service the engine, so I went all out. Figured I'd give the 80 a fair shot before re-powering. Also, I'd like to see if a lighter/better 90 may be coming out in future, and re-power then. After all, in Yamaha at least, the 90 is "older" and the 115 (a newer design) weighs nearly the same. The 70 is super light. I'd like a light 90 that is a blend of the two :D

One last note is that if you have a 90 (or any larger engine) as your primary, and a smaller secondary, then you'll likely end up with a carbed engine for the smaller one. I don't think any of the "portables" are injected. Now let me save Hardee a post and say that you could just go with injected twins :lol:

Sunbeam
 
Carbed is not as convenient as FI but they still run great! I concur with the others above as a Carbed outboard user.

If you have owned carbureted cars, mowers, etc... and are familiar with the choke to start concept, you will be fine with the usability difference. A bit more maintenance but it's easy stuff.

When we are answering this question in the future for someone who has never used a Carburated motor in their life, I will recommend FI to them.

Greg
 
Aurelia":2xgxdpko said:
Carbed is not as convenient as FI but they still run great! I concur with the others above as a Carbed outboard user.

If you have owned carbureted cars, mowers, etc... and are familiar with the choke to start concept, you will be fine with the usability difference. A bit more maintenance but it's easy stuff.

When we are answering this question in the future for someone who has never used a Carburated motor in their life, I will recommend FI to them.

Greg
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This is a good point. I spend time on a bike forum, and the younger guys(and some not so young), struggle with how a choke(enricher on the bike) is supposed to work. They live in fear of ever having to work on a carb. We've had almost a generation, of people who just climb in the car and turn the key.

My 90's like some choke to get going when their cold.
 
Aurelia":2pdkkkgq said:
This is a good point. I spend time on a bike forum, and the younger guys(and some not so young), struggle with how a choke(enricher on the bike) is supposed to work. They live in fear of ever having to work on a carb. We've had almost a generation, of people who just climb in the car and turn the key.
Click to expand...

And ditto for some folks who don't know how to drive a stick-shift!

Next phases:

Cars that parallel park themselves and owners who don't want to learn about that, either!

Then will come cars that steer themselves and require only that you type in a destination to take you there! Who wants to learn to steer or learn the rules of the road?

And, finally, we'll be teleporting ourselves around all over the globe and the Universe, and our romances with the automobile and boat will be a historical footnote somewhere!

Car? Boat? What for? Let's teleport to Rome and have dinner tonight!

And you thought Skype was petty cool, right?

And all of this will happen, just as soon as we pay off the National Debt!

Joe. :lol: :thup
 
Our 22 came with a 1996' carbureted Honda BF-75 (down rated 90 hp). It had over 1,000 hrs. when we purchased it and have added a few hundred more since we have owned it. All I do is run it dry each time before loading on the trailer and then try to run it monthly over the winter with the ear muffs. I have never drained the carbs, nor used any additives. I do try to keep the tanks full but do not always use non-ethanol fuel. At the cost of a new fuel injected motor or Etec, I don't have any intention of replacing it as long as it continues to run well and deliver consistent reliability. It can be a bit noisy with a cold start. Like any other motor, I think the best preventative maintenance is to run it at least once a month.
 
"And all of this will happen, just as soon as we pay off the National Debt!"

No real hurry then. I was all set to order some eye shades off of ebay, so I could nap on the way.
:mrgreen:
 
Thanks for all the feedback guys! If I were to strictly use non-ethanol fuel, would any of the extra preventative maintenance steps still be necessary?
 
afglobemaster":3r88ryit said:
Thanks for all the feedback guys! If I were to strictly use non-ethanol fuel, would any of the extra preventative maintenance steps still be necessary?
Click to expand...

It depends on how often you use the boat.
Carbs get varnish build up on the inside from normal use, so the Seafoam is great for handling that. A good fuel stabilizer is a must in this day and age, even when running non-ethanol fuel, IMHO.
On a daily driver, the fuel is turned over fairly quickly. On a boat, not so much.

I don't drain my carbs, but when they've been sitting for extended periods(a year or so), I do flush them with fresh fuel and a stiff dose of Seafoam before starting them. Per Seafoams instructions, I'll wait for the smoke, and then let it sit for 8 hours, and then start them again until it clears up, and I'm good to go.
When they've been sitting that long, I don't even try to see if they'll be fine, I just go through my procedure.
I have a Honda gennie, that has sat for more then a year before with stabilizer in the fuel, and it ran fine when I started it.
Draining would probably be a better idea, and it doesn't take any time. I've had them sit for 6 months, with just Seafoam and Stabil in the gas, and they'd start and run fine.
When the boat has been sitting for a longer period(a year or more), I also swap out the fuel water separator filters with new ones. Under normal use, you'd just drain off the filter bowl from time to time.
The more often you use the boat, the better off you are.
Always put it to bed in the fall with fresh fuel and stabilizer in the tank. On my bikes, I makes sure and run the mix through the carb, before putting them away, and also run the bike until the fuel is low enough in the bowl, to where the float drops, and the needle and seat separate.

As I mentioned before, letting FI stuff sit, can also lead to issues(as demonstrated with my 2010 F150). Everything I would do with a carb as far as stabilizers, and seafoam, I'd do with a FI motor. The faster you turn the fuel over, the less problems you have. Sitting, is a curse for boats and bikes. With just a couple of preventative measures., you can be as trouble free with a carb, as with anything.
 
afglobemaster":22jly5jr said:
Thanks for all the feedback guys! If I were to strictly use non-ethanol fuel, would any of the extra preventative maintenance steps still be necessary?
Click to expand...

My opinion, FWIW:

While a few of the anticipated problems would be eliminated, most would be only lessened, and 100% (non-ethanol laced) gas can still form varnish, gum, and other residues and be a problem in several ways.

It still gets old, particularly with so much of it being made up of catalytically cracked molecules that tend to re-combine in unwanted compounds.

Considering all of this, I wouldn't do anything less that the "Full Monty" on the fuel system for my $10,000 motor! :lol:

(Note: Modern refineries don't just separate crude oil into the various compounds that make it up by fractional distillation, they "crack" the larger, heavier, more complex molecules through catalytic cracking into smaller ones that are then mixed back in with the normal gas molecules in the gas you buy.

These "cracked" molecules are unstable and will re-combine in random ways, making compounds that lead toward varnish, sludge, and things both un-natural and unhealthy for your fuel system.

Modern gasoline: Buy it and Burn it. Don't let it sit around and gum up your fuel system's guts!

And that's my story, oversimplified a bit, but I'm stickin' to it!)

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe,

Catalytic cracking has been a refinery mainstay for at least 40 years, leading to a small proportion of olefins, but mainly saturated hydrocarbons and some aromatics. I suspect the olefins would be the "unstable" hydrocarbons you are thinking of. Those babies are for sure prime sources of varnishes and gums, but I can not think of a reason that modern catalytic cracking would produce more of them. Olefins in quantity are a headache in processing the hydrocarbon stream, wherever it is headed, whether fuel oil, kerosene, jet fuel, avgas, or unleaded gasoline. Refinery operators would work hard to minimize their formation for that reason, and because the energy of combustion of olefins is less than that of saturated hydrocarbons, on a carbon for carbon basis ... translating to less push at the propeller.

The other process which dominates petroleum processing is catalytic reformation. It trades off low octane stuff for higher octane molecules. But that does not generate olefins, AFAIK. Catalytic reformation has improved quite a bit over the last 30-40 years, to make better use of low quality feedstocks in producing gasoline of an octane suitable for modern gas engines, once octane enhancers have been added.

The saddest story in the fuels game is the rise in use of ethanol derived from corn as an octane booster ... and a gum and varnish booster. That decision did not come from the refinery crowd. It came from well meaning but ignorant politicians and pressure from the public, based on the false premise that ethanol is a "green" source of energy. It is not.

Am I missing something here?
 
AstoriaDave":1mbufzlh said:
Joe,

<body of post not reproduced>

Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

No, Dave I'm sure you're not, thanks for the updates, clarifications, and informed opinion! (I did describe my post as oversimplified, of course.)

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Hi, Just my two sence but I have had out board both 2 and 4 stroke most of my life. Always ran the gas out. That is not turning off the gas and then the motor. You have to turn the gas off and left it run out of fuel and then try and start it several times to make sure you got the gas out. I have never had a problem with a carbed outboard or motorcycle as long as you do that. I have never used stabi fuel or any other additive. I have used defogg to clean up 2 strokes that idle a lot, trolling.


My 90 honda on the 22 had 1200?/ plus hours when we sold it with out a problem. No problems with any of my kickers either. I just ran the kicker on the 27 last week after 5 months of sitting . fired right up. I am glad that a lot of people use the different additives but I think that they are a waste of good lure money. I will say that a can of sea foam to clean the carbs, and not as a stabilizer, is a good produce on both 2 and 4 stroke motors. Just my experience. Always turn off the gas when you are flushing the motors and you will have no problems.
 
I have experience with both a Honda Carb and EFI

1. 1996 Honda 90 Carb - great motor but no automatic choke so cold start is the only issue with this motor that I did not like, you have to pull the choke out and then start the motor and walk back and push the choke back in. Also a little louder than the new EFI motor. As for fuel, I always ran a fuel stabilizer and keep the tank close to 100% full for about 6 years ran perfectly no issues never had to rebuild the carbs, rock solid motor.

2. 2008 Honda 150 EFI - I still run fuel stabilizer but keep the tank less full due to the added weight during towing, cold starting is not an issue and it runs great, more quiet than the Honda 90 Carb model, rock solid motor but I only have 1/2 year and ~100hrs on this motor and has not let me down yet.

Go with the EFI - better resale value, less sensitive to fuel, automatic choke, lower noise along with better fuel mileage my too cents
 
I guarantee that if you follow instructions you will have not problems. I will return to you any and all moneys given to me for said instruction. :wink:
 
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