Help prevent expensive Ethonal related repairs

For the record, I don't think ANY food item should be used to make ethanol! And as to the cost of changing to ANY fuel other than gasoline: we will ALL share the cost, in one way or another. It will not matter that your boat, motor, and trailer is old or new, we will all pay approximately the same price for the change. All I would like to see is, the boating community take the lead based on the most likely fuel to be used in the future and design the equipment to handle what's coming down the road. Clearly, motor manufacturers are lagging behind now because I can't buy a new motor that will burn E-85 (15% ethanol) at any price! As mentioned by several Brat's: I hate ethanol, I've had a motor repaired because I didn't know that ethanol was in the gasoline I bought.( Just as ethanol was coming on line and some of the gas stations hadn't updated their pump stickers ). And yes, I'm still looking for a C-Dory, and I think it will be a CD-19 or CD-22 when I buy. Still have to save some money! Slow process! :D Jim
 
Well this is a fun thread. Don't know how I managed to miss it over the last few days. :)

I think many have made good points above on both sides of the issue. My personal opinion is that we ultimately do have to get off of fossil fuels, but there is just no practical way to do that anytime soon. And I have no interest getting into a debate on that. So, if you disagree, please just ignore me.

But on this particular topic, I will say that my concern is much more basic, and one I hope all my fellow C-Brats would understand:

I have a pair of low-hour Honda BF150s, and I would like them to purr along just fine for quite some time. If gas with ethanol is going to screw them up then that is a problem for me, as I really don't want a bunch of ethanol-related repair bills. Or worse.

However, if I can spend some reasonable about of money on these two Hondas to make them just love gas with ethanol in addition to ethanol-free gas, then I would make that expense just to avoid problems down the road. Still, I would continue to put in ethanol-free gas when it was available (it is still available here).

But what I really don't want is to be in a situation where I have to replace my outboards long before I should have needed because of ethanol damage, or because of some Bureaucrat shoving ethanol down my throat (or more specifically, that of my outboards).

And so I filled out the form at this link I received from BoatUS today; I mention it here should any of you like to do the same. This is the same link Matt posted at the start of this thread.

Beyond that, I agree with Charlie. The only alcohol I like is Single Malt. :)
---
mike
 
Hi,
I was just kidding about whacking all the caribou. I don't know what I spend in additives a year. I'm afraid of what they are adding to diesel fuel so I guess if my diesel pickup truck sits for very long I'll have to start doping that up too! But it's not just a boat engine problem. I don't use additives in my cars but I have a couple of generators, lawnmower, weed whacker, chain saw, gas blower, snow blower. I treat all of that fuel with the marine formula stabil. I drain my chain saw of gas after every use and run it dry. My two stroke mix has marine stabil added in to it. I too responded to the Boat U.S. call to circle the wagons against the increased use of ethanol. I wrote a short respectful (well as good as I was capable of) note to the Commander and Chief, no not Michelle. Me thinks it's the old story money talks and bull@#%& walks. Unless we all start speaking up a little more about all the important issues we'd be the bull#@%& part. Speaking up is important no matter what your position might be. H.R. is calling me, another compliant about the lack of political correctness. I think I might have tourette syndrome. Can't afford single malt, maybe I'll go visit Charlie and see how the other half lives. :smileo I post things sometimes to stir the pot. Buy stock in the fuel additive of your dreams,I think you are going to need it.
D.D.
D.D.
 
If your interested!

September 27, 2010

Dear BoatU.S. Member,

We need your help. If you believe in "science first," now is the time to urge President Obama to require the federal EPA to understand the effects of higher blends of ethanol before allowing it into our country's gasoline supply.

Time is critical. Last year, a record number of boaters asked EPA to test marine engines before allowing up to 15% (E15) ethanol in gasoline. This testing has not been completed. Now, in late September or early October, EPA is getting ready to announce their decision. We expect they will allow E15 for some engines and not others. This will create different fuels with different availability, prices, and a lot of consumer confusion.

BoatU.S. appreciates and embraces the need to diversify our country's fuel and energy sources. However, we are concerned that EPA may put the "cart before the horse" by granting increased ethanol before we know what it will do in our marine engines. Many boaters, having suffered through the last ethanol transition, agree that we should learn from this recent history, and completely understand what the new fuel will do before approving its use in boats. It may turn out to be harmless, but what if it's not? Shouldn't we wait for the facts before making the decision?

Please help today. Click here http://www.followthescience.org/take-action/ and let President Obama know your concerns about ethanol and ask him to get the science first, before giving EPA the approval for more ethanol in your gasoline.

Many thanks,
Margaret Podlich
Vice President, BoatU.S. Government Affairs
GovtAffairs@BoatUS.com
703-461-2878 x8363
BoatUS.com/Gov

*****

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL. If you prefer not to receive BoatU.S. Government Alert emails, click here to be removed. If you do not want to receive ANY emails from BoatU.S., click here. For all other questions, email Govtaffairs@BoatUS.com. Click here to forward to a friend.

© 2010 Boat Owners Association of The United States
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Alexandria, VA 22304

D.D.
 
I still find it funny that the boating argument about ethanol in the fuel is centered about the science of what damage it can do to the engines and not the bigger science issue of the minimal to negative net energy gain. The latter is an issue that applies to all uses including the biggest market - automobiles. With current production methods (and those available in the near future), we burn a lot of oil to make ethanol from corn - both in the farming, fertilization and transportation of the corn and in the production of the ethanol. In my mind, the possibility of higher ethanol content screwing up our engines is secondary to the major issue of ethanol production just not being a good idea for fuel (great for drinking, bad for fuel).
 
My guess is that because cars are not nearly as effected by the negative aspects of ethanol as boats makes it come center stage for boaters. Boat dealers one of which I think started this thread have to deal with these negative effects. They have to correct the problems and charge accordingly. Which especially in this economy does not help with their over all business. Customers having to learn about the use of additives on a regular basis as a result of a large repair bill for cleaning tanks,fuel delivery systems and carborators can't under stand why these problems develop in boats not cars. Since I was not given a choice about the use of ethanol I could only guess that the corn producers lobbied / gave money to someones political campaign and walla here we are. Deficit spending is bad too but it continues. As usual if you follow the money you can find all kinds of really funny stuff. I'm not not throwing stones at any particular party here, it's just politics in general and they obviously didn't look at the negative payback on energy. Someone was just interested in a payback period. IMHO
D.D,
D.D.
 
I could only guess that the corn producers lobbied / gave money to someones political campaign and walla here we are. Deficit spending is bad too but it continues. As usual if you follow the money you can find all kinds of really funny stuff. I'm not not throwing stones at any particular party here, it's just politics in general and they obviously didn't look at the negative payback on energy. Someone was just interested in a payback period.
Click to expand...

Bingo...farm subsidies, lobbying, "campaign contributions" in big corn producing states...D.C. as usual. To hell with logic, science, facts, common sense....
 
Just out of curiosity I googled ethanol. To be fair the following is from the Ethanol Promotion and Information Council (in bold). Sorry about this being so long.

Ethanol
Quick Facts

* One acre of corn can produce enough ethanol to run a car for some 72,000 miles on E-10 Unleaded.

* For every barrel of ethanol produced, 1.2 barrels of petroleum are displaced.

* In 2008, U.S. ethanol production displaced the equivalent of 330,000 barrels of imported crude oil per day—more than one large oil tanker per week.

* The use of E-10 Unleaded (10 percent ethanol/90 percent ordinary unleaded gasoline) is approved for use by every major automaker in the world.

* One bushel of corn yields about 2.8 gallons of ethanol.

* A typical 40 million gallon ethanol plant creates 32 full-time jobs and generates an additional $1.2 million in tax revenue for a community.

* Ethanol production results in a net energy gain—producing 67 percent more energy than it takes to grow and process the corn into ethanol.

* Ethanol production consumed about 20 percent of the nation’s total corn supply in 2007—some 3.0 billion bushels.

* Ethanol production in the U.S. hit a record 6.5 billion gallons in 2007—nearly double the amount produced in 2004.

* There are some 7 million “flexible fuel” vehicles on America ’s highways that can run on up to 85 percent ethanol (E85).

* A flexible fuel vehicle (FFV) can run on any combination of gasoline and ethanol up to 85 percent ethanol. You can fill up with E85 one time, E-10 Unleaded the next and ordinary unleaded the next—and a computer in the fuel system automatically adjusts for the level of ethanol in the fuel mix.

Corn is the primary feedstock for ethanol production. About 20 percent of the nation’s corn supply went into ethanol in 2007—some 3.0 billion bushels. Ethanol can also be made from other grains such as sorghum as well as from “biomass” sources such as corn cobs, cornstalks, wheat straw, rice straw, switchgrass, vegetable and forestry waste and other organic matter.

Ethanol offers a number of benefits to our cars, our environment, our economy and our national security:

* Ethanol adds oxygen to gasoline—helping it combust more completely and reducing the level of toxic exhaust emissions
* Ethanol reduces our nation’s dangerous and expensive dependence on imported oil
* The ethanol industry creates jobs and investment across the nation—especially in rural areas
* Ethanol increases America’s fuel supply—helping keep gas prices down
* Ethanol adds value to America’s corn harvest and helps reduce the cost of federal farm programs.

Like it or not at least for the present and near future, ethanol is here to stay. For those who can find straight gasoline, use it. For those who can't I guess Sta-bil is the only answer until the manufacturers of marine engines decide to accept the present and near future status quo and produce engines that can accept ethanol.

There are other links that trash ethanol too. One interesting link talks about the distinction between "bad" ethanol ( made from corn) and "good" ethanol (made from sugar cane and other biomass). They say we should tax the bad but not the good.
 
rogerbum's drum is my drum, also.

It never made any sense to use ethanol in automobile fuel, boat fuel, schmoatfuel, or whatever, at the E-10 level, and E-15 (or higher) only makes things worse. Plain and simple: diverting precious petroleum resources to prop up the use of corn to make ethanol actually uses up more petroleum than ethanol replaces (as fuel). This was well established by the scientific community in the beginning, and is still true even with advances in technology in the conversion process.

Sure, the ethanol has a small boost in the octane rating of fuel, but that is hardly worth the negative effect on net petroleum consumption.
 
It's not surprising that the Ethanol Promotion and Information Council produces a list of "facts" that support their case. However, the claim that there is a net 66% energy gain is quite dubious. The exact energy balance depends strongly on what is included in the cost accounting. This article in wikipedia provides a much more balanced view and has links to supporting references (on both sides of the issue).
 
Interesting that the Ethonal people admit that one barrel of Ethanol displaces only 1.2 barrels of petroleum. They don't mention the amount of petroleum producet consumed in making that barrel.

Let's do some math-

E10 gasoline can reduce fuel economy by 5-10%.

Which means that for every barrel of non ethonal (E0) fuel a vehicle would burn, it will now burn between 1.05 and 1.1 barrels of E10 fuel.

So we're using 10% more fuel that contains 10% Ethonal. 10% = 10%.

Now throw in the extra cost of the vehicle, or extra maintenance costs of ownership in the case of boats and other gasoline powered devices (yard equipment, Generators, etc).

I don't see any savings in using Ethanol. It is not the fuel of the future, and it is taking resources from dvelopement of real alternative fuels that might be the fuel of the future.
 
One very basic problem with using ethanol based fuel in boats is water absorption in the fuel system.

Vented fuel tanks, as are required in boats, are open to the atmosphere and the day/night heating/cooling cycle causes water to condense inside the fuel tank. This results in water mixing with the ethanol in the fuel. Water in the fuel will cause engine problems.

The US Coast Guard writes the law as respects built in fuel tanks, and they absolutely do not like or allow any tank system that puts gasoline or gasoline/ethanol under pressure. Until the USCG approves a sealed non-vented tank system for boats, ethanol in fuel will mean water condensing in the tank which will require treatment one way or the other.

Since the water mixes or blends with the ethanol, there is no easy way to filter out the water. If someone could come up with an affordable ethanol/water separator then ethanol/gas fuel could work in boats.
 
One could only hope that all of the politicians that support this crap, would own an expensive boat, be far out to sea, have their engines be rendered inoperable, a storm approach and engulf them and thereby have only boater/fuel friendly politicians placed in the helm of the decision making process!

(The reference to politicians above refers to both sides of the aisle as well as the T-party :lol: ).

WOW!.....if I'm not mistaken this is the most political rant I've ever made on the C-Brat site... :shock:
 
I always try to buy non ethanol gas for the Cat. Not a drop available here on the Outer Banks of NC though. Not at a marina, nor a gas station on any highway. Guess I'll double treat with Stabil and Startron, I need about 20 gallons in each tank...

Charlie
 
rogerbum":29xbmqdy said:
I still find it funny that the boating argument about ethanol in the fuel is centered about the science of what damage it can do to the engines and not the bigger science issue of the minimal to negative net energy gain. The latter is an issue that applies to all uses including the biggest market - automobiles. With current production methods (and those available in the near future), we burn a lot of oil to make ethanol from corn - both in the farming, fertilization and transportation of the corn and in the production of the ethanol. In my mind, the possibility of higher ethanol content screwing up our engines is secondary to the major issue of ethanol production just not being a good idea for fuel (great for drinking, bad for fuel).
Click to expand...
Roger – you better be careful with your post, you are starting to sound a lot like me.

I canceled my membership to BoatUS and West Marine over a year ago because of their attitude and sponsorship to save the earth on the backs of regular people except for those in the boating industry.


Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
 
Apropos of no particular post in this thread, I thought I would mention an interesting article about wind power farms that I read recently. Wind power, as you all know, is heavily subsidized, so people like oilman T. Boone Pickens have built huge wind farms in Wyoming and other remote & windy locales and of course are getting fat on the subsidies. Unfortunately, this investment is apparently going to waste because the infrastructure (grid) for delivering the power from Wyoming et al. does not exist.

If you follow the money for ethanol or wind you discover it's all about the subsidies, not the product.

Warren
 
Larry H said:
"Vented fuel tanks, as are required in boats, are open to the atmosphere and the day/night heating/cooling cycle causes water to condense inside the fuel tank. This results in water mixing with the ethanol in the fuel. Water in the fuel will cause engine problems.

The US Coast Guard writes the law as respects built in fuel tanks, and they absolutely do not like or allow any tank system that puts gasoline or gasoline/ethanol under pressure. Until the USCG approves a sealed non-vented tank system for boats, ethanol in fuel will mean water condensing in the tank which will require treatment one way or the other."
Click to expand...

Larry, What if there was a vent that was open to allow the fuel expansion and vapor to escape, but not alow the air/moisture to get into the system. A one way vent system? That might keep the moisture out, and still allow the fuel to breath (exhale, just not inhale :wink:

Just a thought,

Harvey
SleepyC
 
I've beed reading this thread and should have posted earlyer - hope some of you are still following this. As I understand it the main problem with ethonal is phase seperation (water satuaration of the ethonal which seperates it from the gas). All the articals from the national experts say no product will prevent phase seperation. Sta bil says it will "help" with ethonal problems but no specifics. Last wk a mechanic told me they just switched from "Sta bil" to "Star tron" and for the first time found a product that claims to eliminate phase seperation and all the other ethonal problems. Sounds pretty hopeful and I bought some so I guess I will find out next spring (both tanks topped off). Anyone know if this claim is true (prevent phase seperation)?
 
Tommy J":o0j5pfkl said:
I've beed reading this thread and should have posted earlyer - hope some of you are still following this. As I understand it the main problem with ethonal is phase seperation (water satuaration of the ethonal which seperates it from the gas). All the articals from the national experts say no product will prevent phase seperation. Sta bil says it will "help" with ethonal problems but no specifics. Last wk a mechanic told me they just switched from "Sta bil" to "Star tron" and for the first time found a product that claims to eliminate phase seperation and all the other ethonal problems. Sounds pretty hopeful and I bought some so I guess I will find out next spring (both tanks topped off). Anyone know if this claim is true (prevent phase seperation)?
Click to expand...

Wefings uses two products together. See this thread for more info.

Warren
 
Just saw this maybe it works, you try it first, don't shoot I'm just the messenger.

$3.00 Mail-In Rebate
Get $3.00 back on the CRC PhaseGuard4 Ethanol Treatment
Valid thru 12/31/10.
Print CRC PhaseGuard4 Rebate

Protects all gas powered 2 and 4 cycle engines from the harmful effects of ethanol. Prevents phase separation, protects against corrosion, cleans the fuel system, stabilizes fuel and restores power. Equally effective in E10 to E85 fuel.

Applications
Boats, jet skis, and marine craft; automobiles & RVs; snowmobiles, ATVs, motorcycles & other powersports equipment; lawn mowers, snow blowers, weed eaters & other outdoor power equipment; agricultural equipment. For all 2 & 4-cycle engines.

Treatment Ratio
1 Ounce per 10 gallons normal, 1 Ounce per 5 gallons extended storage.
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PhaseGuard 4 Ethanol Fuel Treatment
$3.00 Mail-In Rebate Get $3.00 back on the CRC PhaseGuard4 Ethanol Treatment Valid thru 12/3
D.D.
 
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