Help prevent expensive Ethonal related repairs

Matt, Thanks for coming through once again, here on the C-Brats. The letter has been sent and article forwarded.

Come on you all, let's get behind this one.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Finally something even this left winger can agree with. Ethanol from corn as fuel is great way to subsidize the corn industry and farmers but does very little to help reduce our dependence on foreign energy. There are many studies that look at the net energy required to produced ethanol from corn and depending on what all is included in that calculation and specific assumptions, the calculations show either a small net gain in energy to a net loss. Worse yet, when you consider the increase in food costs due to a greater proportion of agriculture being devoted to energy production, the net cost to society is IMHO negative.

However, from the title of the post "Help prevent expensive Ethonal related repairs", I was expecting a "if you drink don't boat (or drive)" discussion.
:lol:
 
My position on ethanol is: if the auto industry can manufacture a car engine to burn 100% ethanol without any damage to the engine over a long period of time, then the boating industry certainly can do the same thing, especially since most of the new motors are 4 stroke motors. The country of Brazil is running all of their automotive vehicles on either 100% ethanol or diesel.

Having said the above, I'll include the following: 1. I'm not a farmer that will profit from the sale of corn! 2. I'm really tired of having to baby a boat motor just because of potential lubrication problems! 3. I haven't seen any ethanol wells(?) spill millions of gallons of ethanol into our waters and destroy the one natural wonder in which we float our boats! 4. I'm not normally a "Tree Hugger" ( i drive a Tahoe to tow the boat), but this change in boat motors to burn up to 100% ethanol without damage just makes sense.

O.K. I'm off my soapbox now!! :D Regards, Jim
 
Along with my previous post, I forgot to mention that in Indiana we have the option to use E-85 in our vehicles. When General Motors was being pressured to produce a vehicle to burn E-85 by the government, a question of cost to modify each engine was answered with the following information: 1. the changes to the engine was to replace the fuel delivery hoses with ones that would handle ethanol, install fuel injector nozzles with a larger opening, and reprogram the computer for fuel/air mixture. Total cost for each engine; approximately $13, at that time. 2.fuel usage increases with E-85, about a 4 mile per gallon drop. 3. E-85 does burn cleaner than regular gas. O.K., now I think I'm finished! :D Jim
 
Left wing, right wing, who cares.

As a longtime organic chemist, I understand the _net_ energy budget for replacing hydrocarbons in fuel with ethanol. It is negative: meaning we use more _net_ energy replacing oil with booze in fuel.

Aside from the issues with increased fuel usage (decrease in gas mileage) and the technical aspects of retooling an engine to handle E-10, E-15, E-85, etc., the plain fact is that the hidden energy costs of using petroleum-based fertilizers, etc., negate the "sustainable" component of making ethanol from corn. In a country like Brazil, you also have to look at the way their soil is ruined by repeated monoculture (e.g., corn) using heavy fertilizer inputs and factor that into whether it is good to run vehicles on ethanol.

The sensible science on making ethanol from corn fir use as a fuel is: it sucks. The scientific community pointed this out decades ago when the move was initated, but national politics and environmental anti-oil hubris centered on a "renewable" resource swamped reason and logic. It's time to reverse this insanity.

Is that plain enough?
 
Jim,
I think some thought has to be given to the problems that ethanol has caused with existing gas tanks and fuel lines. The newer motors and tanks that built by people aware of the use of ethanol was one thing. But the older equipment built before the advent of ethanol caused many an average guy to have to replace fuel lines, fuel tanks etc. Is ethanol really going to stop future oil spills? I don't think so. I'd rather see more in the way of solar power to cure our energy ills than do than the whole ethanol routine. Just my opinion here. I guess some views depend on where you are from. This is kind of a corny thread. :mrgreen:
D.D.
 
In Oregon the production of Ethanol is going full tilt, and is heavily subsidized. OSU published their findings of what a gallon actually costs to produce, last year. And if I remember correctly, it was close to $14/gallon. Around my home the corn fields that used to produce corn for consumption are now producing genetically altered corn, for the production of ethanol.
 
This is rapidly turning into hard core cornography . Alcohol is for drinking and dissolving things and corn is for eating . Let's go diesel , like the rest of the modern world .
Marc
 
I'd like to burn e85 in all my vehicles but it bothers me that emissions are more harmful to humans, tail pipe increases of 2000% in acetaldehydes, 90% of methane and 60% in formaldehyde make me a bit uneasy. I'd love to stop buying foriegn oil, not that I have anything against Canada and Mexico.

there's lots of energy sources, each has it's application, I'll take good old regular gas for my boat, thank you....and the good 87 octane stuff, not that durn 85 octane stuff they sell in Utah & Idaho......what up with that?
 
B~C":5hitgoss said:
<Thoughtful stuff clipped> I'll take good old regular gas for my boat, thank you....and the good 87 octane stuff, not that durn 85 octane stuff they sell in Utah & Idaho......what up with that?
Click to expand...

Ken- I've always assumed that the 85 octane gas was possible because the whole states where it's allowed are high elevation areas where the compression resulting from the rarefied air is less, therefore requires less octane.

But, as always, I may be wrong.........! :lol:

For my opinion, I'd like all ethanol removed from gasoline for cars, boats, airplanes, lawnmowers, etc.!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I believe that in the future, electricity will increasingly power the transportation and recreational boating industries. In 10-20 years, carbon based fuels will be a minor energy supply.

Here is where the energy goes in vehicles with internal combustion engines.

chart_ICE_efficiency_500x.jpg


Here is where it goes in an electric car.

chart_newleaf%20_efficiency_500.jpg


I know this does not help us C-Brats today but it is interesting and I think it is good to keep in mind.
 
If someone on the C-Brats site has an electric motor and power supply that is light weight, is dependable, and that will move my boat at 22mph for 236 nm without refueling please call me and I'll send the money right now!!!.

As to ethanol: 1. it can be made from about any bio-mass to include the tons of garbage we dump each year and spend billions, yes billions, of dollars to truck off, store, cover-up, vent, and try to recover methane gas from to run other businesses. It doesn't have to be made from any crops that are used for food!! 2. when the last drop of oil has been exrtacted from the ground and under the sea, the price of oil will be around $3,000 a barrel because that's the effort it will take to get to the hard-to-reach oil.
Last time I looked there was a grass native to the Western U.S., just one large clump of which will produce 7 gals of ethanol, for each gallon of gasoline from oil.

The point about the older 2 stroke motors that are still in use, is a valid one. I know of one late 1940's motor that is still running and being used close to home, and there are millions more world wide. My point being, all of the manufacturers of current motors can and should be looking forward to the possibility that ethanol in larger than 10% ratio's, will be the fuel of the future until we get something else going. We are already at 15% in Indiana although it's a optional fuel source.

I would be interested in knowing what the weight would be for a natural gas fuel system on board a boat? One designed for the recreational boating industry? NO, I don't own any natural gas stocks! :P
 
Wow, this has taken a turn, hasn't it? Diesels are widely used by European car manufacturers, with little emissions and unbelievable mileage results. As far as weenign ouselves off foreign oil may I throw in one word: NUCLEAR (power that is).
 
The manufacturers absolutely could make the engines compatible with E85. But they would have to use different materials for many components of them.

If consumers are getting sticker shock at $10,000 installed for a 90 horse outboard, how will they feel about spending $12K for the same thing? E85? Not enough of a selling feature to overcome extra cost.

Have you priced fuel hoses lately? Yamaha Fuel hose and primer bulb assembly is now $100 because of the requirement for 0 (Zero) vapor permeability.

How much vapor did the old hose pass? Very little, but the cost of producing one that reduces it that last few percentile is very expensive. Speaking of fuel hose, Mercury is having a problem with Ethanol attacking the liner of their hose, causing it to seperate from the outer hose, collapsing, and restricting fuel. If not caught and corrected, boats can have severe runability problems, or in worse case, engine failure from running too lean.

Also keep in mind that marine systems are open to the environment, unlike automotive which is a sealed system.

But don't worry, catalytic converters are now on marine inboard gasoline engines. So a manifold job now is $6000 in parts instead of $2500 (or less). Not to mention the $3000-$5000 increase in the price of the boat due the new emissions components.

Catalytic Converters may wind up on four stroke outboards yet, which will add to their weight, cost and complexity. Oh and converters can't stand salt water- it destroys them.

Evinrude says that their design is inherently low in the emissions that a converter targets, so they won't need them to meet the next round of emission standards. There are manufacturers in Europe working on 2 stroke auto engines for this very reason.
 
IMHO...........

1. We need to ween ourselves off of foreign oil and eventually oil completely.

2. We need to bring back jobs and create jobs in the USA and use USA produced resources whenever possible.

Ethanol may not be the best answer or even a good answer but at least it is part of initially achieving the two goals above. Maybe ethanol's deficiencies will spur greater research into better solutions.

Short term pain is worth the long term gain.
 
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