Handling a Large Wave
- Thread starter Dora~Jean
- Start date
Pete in NY
New member
AIS sites:
http://www.aislive.com/AISLivePortal/De ... =0&tabid=1
http://www.sealinks.net/US.htm
http://mxais.sfmx.org/bas/login.aspx?Re ... fault.aspx
http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/index.html#search
The different sites give various detail. The color changes if they are anchored or underway. You need to register on some sites for the free/basic service. Realtime more detailed tracking costs bucks.
My Maptech navigator pro has the ability to track realtime AIS signals on the boat from my laptop but I don't have a receiver. On the big guys they can all see each other. If I was boating in a busy harbor like Seattle I'd consider looking into a transponder to show my boat or at the very least have a high quality radar reflector.
I use these sites to update myself on my son's location so I know when he might be in cell phone range. While they were anchored in Port Angeles I was able to talk to him on the bridge while seeing his ship on this webcam in realtime:
http://www.portangelesinn.com/webcam.html
He described the bridge as being like the starship Enterprise with multiple high end redundant systems with backup upon backup. The ship is steered by joystick that controls twin engine rooms and bow thrusters from a central better than Stidd type chair on tracks that can be adjusted for and aft 10ft or so. All systems are redundant and if they go off course more than 3 meters all sorts of alarms go off. If no one answers the alarms on the bridge an alarm goes off in all the officers quarters as well as a general alarm on the entire ship.
Isn't technology grand!
http://www.aislive.com/AISLivePortal/De ... =0&tabid=1
http://www.sealinks.net/US.htm
http://mxais.sfmx.org/bas/login.aspx?Re ... fault.aspx
http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/index.html#search
The different sites give various detail. The color changes if they are anchored or underway. You need to register on some sites for the free/basic service. Realtime more detailed tracking costs bucks.
My Maptech navigator pro has the ability to track realtime AIS signals on the boat from my laptop but I don't have a receiver. On the big guys they can all see each other. If I was boating in a busy harbor like Seattle I'd consider looking into a transponder to show my boat or at the very least have a high quality radar reflector.
I use these sites to update myself on my son's location so I know when he might be in cell phone range. While they were anchored in Port Angeles I was able to talk to him on the bridge while seeing his ship on this webcam in realtime:
http://www.portangelesinn.com/webcam.html
He described the bridge as being like the starship Enterprise with multiple high end redundant systems with backup upon backup. The ship is steered by joystick that controls twin engine rooms and bow thrusters from a central better than Stidd type chair on tracks that can be adjusted for and aft 10ft or so. All systems are redundant and if they go off course more than 3 meters all sorts of alarms go off. If no one answers the alarms on the bridge an alarm goes off in all the officers quarters as well as a general alarm on the entire ship.
Isn't technology grand!
Jim Gibson
Member
Brent-
Thanks for providing the picture and the quanitative description of the size of the wave. Helps really put it in perspective for everyone.
Thanks for providing the picture and the quanitative description of the size of the wave. Helps really put it in perspective for everyone.
Smuttynose
New member
I am amazed with this site. The simpliest question gets dozens of responses. I want to take the wave question to the next height. Do C-Dorys capsize? Send me to the right thread if I am missing it.
Pete, thank you for your perspective. It is educational and exciting for us to hear about how the CD-25 handles those conditions. We did our research for quite a while before heading to the SBS to see one of these in person. There's always that concern, no matter how much you research, that: did we make the right buying decision? It is great to hear another owner's perspective.
I expected many of our sailor friends to balk when they heard we were making the move from sail to C-Dory, but it has been quite the opposite - we are finding SO many of them who are familiar with the qualities of the C-Dory that make them so enticing to sailors... including how they ride in the sea conditions that started this thread.
Thanks again for your input.
Best wishes,
Jim B. (tick, tick, tick... counting down the days :wink )
I expected many of our sailor friends to balk when they heard we were making the move from sail to C-Dory, but it has been quite the opposite - we are finding SO many of them who are familiar with the qualities of the C-Dory that make them so enticing to sailors... including how they ride in the sea conditions that started this thread.
Thanks again for your input.
Best wishes,
Jim B. (tick, tick, tick... counting down the days :wink )
That ship had every right to increase its speed in that outbound situation. The speed limits are strictly imposed inbound, but not outbound (beyond certain points).
All of the answers, in my humble opinion, are wrong. And the primary reason is that it looks like you were all caught by surprise.
If you found yourselves dealing with a bigger wake than you had expected, or had even noticed, you may not have been totally aware of what was happening around you.
I learned as a 16 year old kid to avoid the two converted PT boats going in and out of the Ocean City (NJ) inlet, since they set up a huge bow wake. I learned, only because I was fascinated with the big boat, and was paying no attention to its wake. It was only when my Dad pointed out that I was watching the wrong thing, that I ran like hell away from the wake, since it was to big to head into for our little boat. Additionally, my brother and I used to go out into the shipping lanes, catching the southbound freighters and tankers out of New York Harbor. Those wakes were huge, so we learned to stay away, since they are displacing huge amounts of water.
I think the prudent thing to do is to avoid them altogether. There are two sets of rules, and both of them are written:
There are the "Rules of the Road", and there are the rules of dealing with big ships. The whole point is to stay away from the big ships. Especially when they are well underway.
FWIW
Ken
All of the answers, in my humble opinion, are wrong. And the primary reason is that it looks like you were all caught by surprise.
If you found yourselves dealing with a bigger wake than you had expected, or had even noticed, you may not have been totally aware of what was happening around you.
I learned as a 16 year old kid to avoid the two converted PT boats going in and out of the Ocean City (NJ) inlet, since they set up a huge bow wake. I learned, only because I was fascinated with the big boat, and was paying no attention to its wake. It was only when my Dad pointed out that I was watching the wrong thing, that I ran like hell away from the wake, since it was to big to head into for our little boat. Additionally, my brother and I used to go out into the shipping lanes, catching the southbound freighters and tankers out of New York Harbor. Those wakes were huge, so we learned to stay away, since they are displacing huge amounts of water.
I think the prudent thing to do is to avoid them altogether. There are two sets of rules, and both of them are written:
There are the "Rules of the Road", and there are the rules of dealing with big ships. The whole point is to stay away from the big ships. Especially when they are well underway.
FWIW
Ken
Ken, I hear you about being lax on what's going on around you, I try my best to stay ahead of situations. This tanker came up essentially around a corner and at the time was going quite slow, well within manageability for all of us. Then as that sailboat crossed it's bow and stalled (they were far too close to attempt to cross its bow) the options began to narrow because it became another object to contend with in an increasingly tight area. The tanker accelerated and turned sharply (towards our exit path), I've never experienced a tanker accelerating that much in such a short distance. Possible it WAS trying to maintain control as Pete said or simply stayed slow to allow that sailboat to clear then gunned it.
Pete, good points, I always try to put myself in the other person's (boat's) shoes to visualize what options they have as well. Thanks for the links, I'll try them this weekend.
Your statement
I and other C-Dory owners experience the same tremendous stability of these boats due to their hull shape. I read a discussion a few years back regarding broaching in beam-on seas. The C-Dory's tend to 'slide' down the waves rather than tripping on a deep-V and rolling. That short, thin keel provides just enough tracking but not so much to want to trip and roll the boat over. Now if we're talking large, breaking waves, I don't think any shape will be 100% safe (Perfect Storm comes to mind...).
Your statement
I don't completely agree. The C-Dory's, including the 25's have actually quite low profiles to the water, they don't have a bilge that the rest of the boat is built over. They are bow-light however, so what forward windage they do have seems to be magnified. I find this low profile a major advantage, especially after enduring 50-70 knot winds at anchor.
I and other C-Dory owners experience the same tremendous stability of these boats due to their hull shape. I read a discussion a few years back regarding broaching in beam-on seas. The C-Dory's tend to 'slide' down the waves rather than tripping on a deep-V and rolling. That short, thin keel provides just enough tracking but not so much to want to trip and roll the boat over. Now if we're talking large, breaking waves, I don't think any shape will be 100% safe (Perfect Storm comes to mind...).
I can't say I've been in 'scary rough conditions' without power, but I did intentionally shut off the engines in 6-8 ft combined seas (swell/chop) with serious whitecaps, about 20-25 kts of wind. The boat turned tail to the wind and stabilized so well I decided to boil water and make a cup of noodles for lunch -- and ate it while riding the waves. Amazing stability. I'd rather have it turn and hold directly INTO the wind and waves, but will take this behavior way before any of my other boat's that ALL turned SIDEWAYS to the waves/wind.
Pete,
My experience with bottom fishing jives with Steve's comments above. I like to jig for halibut with power off and drifting. I have fished in some very large swells and chop. If there is any wind the boat will turn with the bow straight downwind and unless the wind chop is very high the waves just roll under with no effect. The worst I have ever seen happen is an occasional little crest will break in the splashwell but very little water has ever come aboard.
My experience with bottom fishing jives with Steve's comments above. I like to jig for halibut with power off and drifting. I have fished in some very large swells and chop. If there is any wind the boat will turn with the bow straight downwind and unless the wind chop is very high the waves just roll under with no effect. The worst I have ever seen happen is an occasional little crest will break in the splashwell but very little water has ever come aboard.
Ken, you're the first CD-22 owner that I recall reporting this same action that I've experienced on my 25 (although I don't claim to have exceptional recall abilities..). Great. I have twin engines, do you? I would think that adds to its tendency to turn downwind. Like I said, first boat I've owned that does it, wonderful safety factor plus less of a tendency to become disabled from seasickness if trying to fix a problem in bad conditions.
Back to the big wave. I gotta know, what's the WORST thing you could do in that situation, and what might have happened? (Just bought a 22 Cruiser and will be taking a day of instruction in the Bay next week--I have zero "big water" experience except party boats, so this story really got my attention.)
Greg
Roseville, CA
Greg
Roseville, CA
This is a really interesting thread for me - thanks, everyone, for your participation. In sailing, if something needs attention when the weather is snotty, you can heave to, things will settle down, and you can go about reefing, repairing, having lunch, etc. Also, on occasions where there is very little wind/wave action, we have anchored from the stern to get some breeze in the companionway (we do NOT make a practice of this).
So, if I am understanding correctly from what Steve, Pete, and Ken are saying: there isn't a problem with being pooped in these boats (assuming the waves are not breaking) because the hull is flat, the transom wide, and not much boat below the water? Interesting design premise. How much "bucking" is there with any sizable wave action in this position? And what is the drift you'd expect? How fast does the cockpit of the 25 drain if any water comes in?
I gotta tell you, the more I learn about these boats, the more impressed I am. I am so excited to get my hands on ours that I could just about burst. :smilep
I have really enjoyed my chosen profession for the past 31 years, and thought that I'd have some regrets as the ending time grew near. Instead, I find that we (not just me) are so excited to start this next chapter with this boat.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
So, if I am understanding correctly from what Steve, Pete, and Ken are saying: there isn't a problem with being pooped in these boats (assuming the waves are not breaking) because the hull is flat, the transom wide, and not much boat below the water? Interesting design premise. How much "bucking" is there with any sizable wave action in this position? And what is the drift you'd expect? How fast does the cockpit of the 25 drain if any water comes in?
I gotta tell you, the more I learn about these boats, the more impressed I am. I am so excited to get my hands on ours that I could just about burst. :smilep
I have really enjoyed my chosen profession for the past 31 years, and thought that I'd have some regrets as the ending time grew near. Instead, I find that we (not just me) are so excited to start this next chapter with this boat.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
I don't claim to be an expert in any of this, so I can only give you my experiences and thoughts. I have a CD25 which of course most of you know it is "self-bailing." I qualify that because, my vintage boat ('03) is open under the transom ledge (inside cockpit) whereas the newer models have that area closed off. I like my area, can put large items in there easily. Back to the open area, there are 4 rather large entry holes at the back of this area that go directly to the bilge area where the gas tank is. I believe the 4 holes/entries (approx 6"x6" semi-circle shaped) are to pass hoses and cables from above deck to the bilge area. Factory said I could seal them off, not used for venting. That I plan to do (on my list). I believe that's the "archilles heel" of my boat which has an easy remedy. So far never had a wave enter the cockpit, only splashes from wind whipping.
As far as what is the worst you could do in that wave we were in? --hmmm, I suppose turn tail and put in full reverse!!! Sorry, got carried away. I wouldn't recommend putting in neutral and turning sideways to the wave, that's an uncontrolled situation, could broach -- although I really believe my boat would've handled it OK even then -- not sure of the passengers though... And I don't plan on running an experiment thank you very much. :shock:
As far as what is the worst you could do in that wave we were in? --hmmm, I suppose turn tail and put in full reverse!!! Sorry, got carried away. I wouldn't recommend putting in neutral and turning sideways to the wave, that's an uncontrolled situation, could broach -- although I really believe my boat would've handled it OK even then -- not sure of the passengers though... And I don't plan on running an experiment thank you very much. :shock:
When heading into steep or breaking waves, the least broachable position is to head directly into the wave. The further you get from the 90 degree angle, the more likely the possibility of a broach. If you don't believe it, just look closely at the photo that Tyboo posted on page 2 of this thread. That is what a 45 degree angle will get you. Boats have a pointy shaped bow for a reason and that reason is to arrow through the breaking water or steep wave. You don't want a wave to hit the side of the bow, that forces the bow parallell to the wave and the potential to broach increases. If you're going to fast you'll drop off the back of the wave and land with a splat , but you'll live to tell about it.
Watch "Graveyard of the Pacific" on the travel channel. The Coast Guard recommends taking big waves head on.
Watch "Graveyard of the Pacific" on the travel channel. The Coast Guard recommends taking big waves head on.
Larry (Helen O) - thanks, I learned something AGAIN. I agree with you, the boat and passengers will take a pounding head on, and that next wave may break right on top of the boat, but that is the best way to stay 90 deg to the wave and the next one. That means Pounder negotiated the wave the best and Salty-C's chose prudence the best.
This thread makes me nervous. I'm no expert here, but just based on my experience and what I've learned over the years (including a head splitting, adolescent-like run in with a wake from a Canadian destroyer), IMHO:
- You should never, ever put your stern to heavy seas - especially in an outboard which tends to be naturally ass heavy. Even if all seems well, a single large or breaking wave will take you down - in an instant. If I were ever forced to do tihs I would never shut off my power plants in hopes I might be able to readjust position if I see something nasty heading my way.
In deciding "how to take" a wave or wake, due consideration should be given not just to wave height, but also wave length (how stacked up the waves are/spacing) and sea conditions (confused, wave shape(s)/breaking, steepness, contributory currents and tides).
There is no single rule for handling waves (or wakes) in any boat. The decision must be made on the spot. There are times when a bow on approach is the only way to proceed (or hold position). There are times when an angled approach (of varying degree) is appropriate. And there are times when turning and following a sea is best. There are times when its best to toss the sea anchor off the bow and let er drift. But none of these can be decided solely on wave height.
Weight distribution on the boat can effect performance in heavy seas, as can adjusting influences like trim tabs (sometimes good into the waves, but almost always bad in a following sea - cause broaching)
The C-Dory suffers from its flat bottom in taking stacked, high peak waves head on because even at very low speed you will pound off the other side of the wave because there's nothing to cut through the trough.
Any boat will capsize - it's just a matter of wave conditions, boat position and seamanship.
As echoed by others - anticipate and avoid these big ships. A C-Dory is nothing more than small, inconsequential piece of flotsam to these behemoths. Shipping lanes are marked for a reason.
C-Dorys are great boats but are not limitation free..
Falco;
Well said.
What a great thread!
Here on the lower Ches. Bay we have the same problem of traffic, plus the Navy ships and commercial fishing vessels.
Experience is gained by practice in a controlled condition. Ride those waves with various angles in a progression of challenges. Get to know the 'feel' of the boat at different angels of approach. Size up the entry. You will find various 'sweet' spots for the controllability and speed. KEEP the hull and props in the water for control, don't try to make her span between the peaks. It could be possible to pitch pole as you roll over one of the peaks, etc..
You will find that the CD25 WILL flex some. I have had my screens pop out of their tracks and hit me and my mate on more than one occasion. The popping out is not as important as to the ability of the boat to flex and absorb some of the energy. The old NOVA SCOTIA fishing boats were made to do just that. That experience reminded me of my old sailing instructor demanding that everything be secured in place in case... even on our 'drifting' races. The old adage of a clear and clean deck is a safe deck applies everywhere on board.
As to the seaman's eye and keeping an active 'watch', we all goof on that on occassion. That is when your seamanship practice and prayer skills are tested.
One of the most under estimated vessels you can encounter is the attack subs as they pass by. The sail seems so small, but all that hull is moving a lot just under the surface and can generate a wake just like that container ship. Please, be advised, if you had not thought about it.
I thought all I was going to do was say, HI. Boy, did I roll on. Sorry, gang.
Well said.
What a great thread!
Here on the lower Ches. Bay we have the same problem of traffic, plus the Navy ships and commercial fishing vessels.
Experience is gained by practice in a controlled condition. Ride those waves with various angles in a progression of challenges. Get to know the 'feel' of the boat at different angels of approach. Size up the entry. You will find various 'sweet' spots for the controllability and speed. KEEP the hull and props in the water for control, don't try to make her span between the peaks. It could be possible to pitch pole as you roll over one of the peaks, etc..
You will find that the CD25 WILL flex some. I have had my screens pop out of their tracks and hit me and my mate on more than one occasion. The popping out is not as important as to the ability of the boat to flex and absorb some of the energy. The old NOVA SCOTIA fishing boats were made to do just that. That experience reminded me of my old sailing instructor demanding that everything be secured in place in case... even on our 'drifting' races. The old adage of a clear and clean deck is a safe deck applies everywhere on board.
As to the seaman's eye and keeping an active 'watch', we all goof on that on occassion. That is when your seamanship practice and prayer skills are tested.
One of the most under estimated vessels you can encounter is the attack subs as they pass by. The sail seems so small, but all that hull is moving a lot just under the surface and can generate a wake just like that container ship. Please, be advised, if you had not thought about it.
I thought all I was going to do was say, HI. Boy, did I roll on. Sorry, gang.