I bought the Yamaha 1000 Watt generator from Wise Yesterday. The reason for the Yamaha was because it is lighter than the Honda. It is also quieter, smaller and came with battery cables. The down side is, it cost more. On a 16 foot I need to conserve as much as possible on space and weight.
generator
- Thread starter B~C
- Start date
CatyMae n Steve
New member
I did check out Wise sales, but lucked out on craigslist and found a feller that lives about a mile away who was selling one! Now, that's dandy, eh? It's in excellent shape, starts easily, runs shop vacs on a demo, has about 20 hours on it and is a couple years old. We should get some good chargin 
out of it and I'm hopin it'll run one of those bitty microwaves they have at WallyWorld....now that'd be nice :smiled
out of it and I'm hopin it'll run one of those bitty microwaves they have at WallyWorld....now that'd be nice :smiledPat Anderson
New member
I mostly use the microwave on board as the ground plane for my two meter mag mount antenna...we thought we would use it, but (and DON'T TELL BILL FIERO) it does not really seem very useful on board. Our main use for the generator on Daydream is to run the hot water heater on the CD25. It takes about half an hour to get the water hot, and I guess it charges the batteries a bit too. Now, if you don't use the cockpit for anything else, I'll bet one of those Jacuzzi bathroom models would slide in crossways just fine...
B~C":33q9b19q said:
I just finished putting together a fuel line to supply the Honda generator with gas from the Racor filter and main tanks so as to not have to refill the generator's tank by hand for extended running.
Here's a link to that photo and the three that follow with a full explanation of how it's fabricated and works.
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php
Joe.
Here's a link to that photo and the three that follow with a full explanation of how it's fabricated and works.
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php
Joe.
Roger has fairly well nailed it. The problem is the lack of oxygen. The hemoglobin contained in the red blood cells has an affinity for oxygen, but has an even greater affinity (200% more) for carbon monoxide. Even 20PPM in the atmosphere over a long peroid of time will have some effect. I saw patients who were obtaining this level, living near freeways and spending long peroids commuting in heavy traffic. The "natural" release of carbon monoxide is slow (5 to 6 hours for) half of the CO bound in the red blood cells to be released. The first line of treatment is to give the patient oxygen--since the cause of the damage is a lack of oxygen (giving oxygen reduces the half life of the CO to 1.5 to 2.5 hours, and increased the oxygen levles in the red cells). Unfortunately there are only about 400 hyperbaric chambers in the United states, and finding one available at any one time or place can be a problem. (a hyperbaric chamber will decrease the half life of CO to about half an hour) Take the person to the nearest emergency room, get the oxygen started and then the ER doc will determine if a hyperbaric chamber is available. There is a older therapy which is being re-explored--that is giving an increased level of carbon dioxide, to promote increased ventilation. This was first noted in the early 20's--and fell out of favor, but recent studies show that this is of value.
There are acute problems as wall as the chronic problems. The acute problems are mostly neurological and cardiac. For example a person who has chronic lung disease or cardiac disease may be more susceptable to damage from acute CO poisoning. I had a situation where I had to enter an engine room where a diesel generator (yes Diesel does produce CO- but lower amounts than gas) had lost the hose from the exhaust and within several minutes I had a head ache and angina. (Knowing the reason, I got out of the engine room as soon as symptoms appeared)
All carbon monoxide detectors should be duration/concentration sensitative.
I refer to a web article which discusses detectors and CO in airplanes--more critical than boats, but very much the same scenerio:
http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/186016-1.html
Also one should test or replace the CO detector every year. Just pushing the "test" button, only tests the electrical circuit and battery, not the sensor. There are CO test kits, which cost about $3.50 (less in quanitity), which expose the detector or known levels of carbon monoxide. I also like a CO detector which has a read out--and is sensitative to low levels. Unfortunately the UL standards for CO detectors was "dumbed down" in 1998 because of too many "false alarms". Even 10 to 30 PPM (below what the usual detector registers) can be a problem for children. At 200 PPM one should evacuate a building immmediately--yet most detectors do not alarm for over 35 minutes at this level.
The CO Experts Model 2002 Low-Level CO Monitor, is the best for a boat, but is a bit over $100. The next best is the Kidde Nighthawk 900-0089 for $40 on up at you local big box store. Both of these give actual read outs in PPM, so you can check the levels.
There are acute problems as wall as the chronic problems. The acute problems are mostly neurological and cardiac. For example a person who has chronic lung disease or cardiac disease may be more susceptable to damage from acute CO poisoning. I had a situation where I had to enter an engine room where a diesel generator (yes Diesel does produce CO- but lower amounts than gas) had lost the hose from the exhaust and within several minutes I had a head ache and angina. (Knowing the reason, I got out of the engine room as soon as symptoms appeared)
All carbon monoxide detectors should be duration/concentration sensitative.
I refer to a web article which discusses detectors and CO in airplanes--more critical than boats, but very much the same scenerio:
http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/186016-1.html
Also one should test or replace the CO detector every year. Just pushing the "test" button, only tests the electrical circuit and battery, not the sensor. There are CO test kits, which cost about $3.50 (less in quanitity), which expose the detector or known levels of carbon monoxide. I also like a CO detector which has a read out--and is sensitative to low levels. Unfortunately the UL standards for CO detectors was "dumbed down" in 1998 because of too many "false alarms". Even 10 to 30 PPM (below what the usual detector registers) can be a problem for children. At 200 PPM one should evacuate a building immmediately--yet most detectors do not alarm for over 35 minutes at this level.
The CO Experts Model 2002 Low-Level CO Monitor, is the best for a boat, but is a bit over $100. The next best is the Kidde Nighthawk 900-0089 for $40 on up at you local big box store. Both of these give actual read outs in PPM, so you can check the levels.
Co, bad stuff
Joe, that's right smart looking set up.
CM&S, those little Hondas are a rare find on Craigs List, what a score.
The generator showed up today, splashed a bit of oil in it and fired it off, it works good. I will need to get a bigger boat if I want to mount it in the motor well.
Joe, that's right smart looking set up.
CM&S, those little Hondas are a rare find on Craigs List, what a score.
The generator showed up today, splashed a bit of oil in it and fired it off, it works good. I will need to get a bigger boat if I want to mount it in the motor well.
CatyMae n Steve
New member
B~C":22uw1kpu said:
Noooooo problem! Jeff's prob'ly waitin for your call!
Pat Anderson
New member
Don't call Jeff, call me in October or so!
B~C":mjh95srl said:
Brent-
Maybe....
The Honda generators (1000i and 2000i) have a fuel pump that will lift the fuel up to 6 feet in height.
Don't know if the 2 or 4 hp outboards have a pump or are gravity feed only.
If they don't, one could still use a gravity feed / siphon system providing the external tank was as high as or higher than the outboard tank.
The fellow that wanted to add the external tank was from the C-Dog site and wanted to use the tank in a scanoe (flat ended canoe) where the tank would be lower than the outboard tank.
One could still could pump it up by hand with the bulb to manually refill the o/b tank, however.
On the Yahoo Groups Honda 2000 Generator website, there's a discussion and a picture of how to use an electric pump to push the gas along from an external tank if you are using the generator, or, for that matter, have a 12 volt battery handy. Could be a real problem if the pressure was too much for the float valve, however. Might have to use the pump to refill the o/b tank periodically rather than use it as a continuous feed source.
Seems like there are always complications to what looks like a simple solution!
Joe.
Maybe....
The Honda generators (1000i and 2000i) have a fuel pump that will lift the fuel up to 6 feet in height.
Don't know if the 2 or 4 hp outboards have a pump or are gravity feed only.
If they don't, one could still use a gravity feed / siphon system providing the external tank was as high as or higher than the outboard tank.
The fellow that wanted to add the external tank was from the C-Dog site and wanted to use the tank in a scanoe (flat ended canoe) where the tank would be lower than the outboard tank.
One could still could pump it up by hand with the bulb to manually refill the o/b tank, however.
On the Yahoo Groups Honda 2000 Generator website, there's a discussion and a picture of how to use an electric pump to push the gas along from an external tank if you are using the generator, or, for that matter, have a 12 volt battery handy. Could be a real problem if the pressure was too much for the float valve, however. Might have to use the pump to refill the o/b tank periodically rather than use it as a continuous feed source.
Seems like there are always complications to what looks like a simple solution!
Joe.
Thought I'd better post a warning and revision about the external fuel supply system shown in the earlier post above.
I took it to the lake yesterday and set ity up with the generator, etc.
It will raise fuel from the Racor filter and the tank below, as I could see this in the clear tubing.
However, the generator won't rev up when a load is applied. Removing the cap immediately solves the problem. My interpretation is that the fuel pump is so taxed by lifting the fuel that there's negative pressure in the carburetor, and when the main jet tries to supply fuel as the engine needs to rev up, it can't because the negative pressure won't let the fuel flow through the jet easily.
So it looks like it's back to the drawing boards. An external electric pump could be added, but that's a little dangerous if the float valve were to get stuck open or just not be able to handle the pressure.
Having another external tank at the genertor level might do the trick, but why bother with another tank, etc.
I may just use the hose and supply set up to refill the generator's tank by hand pumping so I don't have to carry an extra gas can.
I was told on the Honda 2000 Generator site (Yahoo Groups), that the generator will lift fuel 6 feet at sea level. Maybe so, but it has to do it better than I'm seeing so far.
They use these set ups on generators with RV's, but without lifting the fuel much, usually with the supply tank level with the generator.
Will keep you posted as developments occur.
Joe.
I took it to the lake yesterday and set ity up with the generator, etc.
It will raise fuel from the Racor filter and the tank below, as I could see this in the clear tubing.
However, the generator won't rev up when a load is applied. Removing the cap immediately solves the problem. My interpretation is that the fuel pump is so taxed by lifting the fuel that there's negative pressure in the carburetor, and when the main jet tries to supply fuel as the engine needs to rev up, it can't because the negative pressure won't let the fuel flow through the jet easily.
So it looks like it's back to the drawing boards. An external electric pump could be added, but that's a little dangerous if the float valve were to get stuck open or just not be able to handle the pressure.
Having another external tank at the genertor level might do the trick, but why bother with another tank, etc.
I may just use the hose and supply set up to refill the generator's tank by hand pumping so I don't have to carry an extra gas can.
I was told on the Honda 2000 Generator site (Yahoo Groups), that the generator will lift fuel 6 feet at sea level. Maybe so, but it has to do it better than I'm seeing so far.
They use these set ups on generators with RV's, but without lifting the fuel much, usually with the supply tank level with the generator.
Will keep you posted as developments occur.
Joe.
Joe,
It might be worthwhile to do a little experimenting to determine if the issue is pulling the fuel that high, restriction in the line or just pulling it that far. Depending on the flow conditions, length can be a huge issue. From my old days in physics, I seem to remember that pressure drop across a pipe or piece of tubing is a function that can be between an inverse power of 3 to an inverse power of 6 in length. That is doubling the length of a tube can generate 8-64 fold increase in the drop in pressure (I couldn't find the exact formulas and parameters online in 10-15 minutes of googling so the real engineers --- please help out). My point is that if the pressure drop is due to flow related friction and if you have more tygon that you really need for the hook-up, maybe just shortening the line will help. Also, if it is a pressure drop across the tubing due to turbulent flow in a long line, increasing the diameter of the tubing may also solve the problem.
If the problem is really due to having to raise the fuel up to the level of the generator (which I presume is above the tank perhaps sitting on a lazarette), then simply lowering the generator to the floor would result in proper operation. I realize that you don't want to run the generator on the cockpit floor due to the previously mentioned issues with regards to exhaust, but I am suggesting this as an experiment to determine the source of the pressure drop/problem.
Finally, if it's not the height difference and it's not the length, that might suggest that the brass shut off valve needs to have an enlarged orifice.
Just a few thoughts.
Roger on the SeaDNA
It might be worthwhile to do a little experimenting to determine if the issue is pulling the fuel that high, restriction in the line or just pulling it that far. Depending on the flow conditions, length can be a huge issue. From my old days in physics, I seem to remember that pressure drop across a pipe or piece of tubing is a function that can be between an inverse power of 3 to an inverse power of 6 in length. That is doubling the length of a tube can generate 8-64 fold increase in the drop in pressure (I couldn't find the exact formulas and parameters online in 10-15 minutes of googling so the real engineers --- please help out). My point is that if the pressure drop is due to flow related friction and if you have more tygon that you really need for the hook-up, maybe just shortening the line will help. Also, if it is a pressure drop across the tubing due to turbulent flow in a long line, increasing the diameter of the tubing may also solve the problem.
If the problem is really due to having to raise the fuel up to the level of the generator (which I presume is above the tank perhaps sitting on a lazarette), then simply lowering the generator to the floor would result in proper operation. I realize that you don't want to run the generator on the cockpit floor due to the previously mentioned issues with regards to exhaust, but I am suggesting this as an experiment to determine the source of the pressure drop/problem.
Finally, if it's not the height difference and it's not the length, that might suggest that the brass shut off valve needs to have an enlarged orifice.
Just a few thoughts.
Roger on the SeaDNA
Roger-
Thanks for all the thoughts, all well worth checking out!
I'd planned to spend some more time trying different addjustments and doing some experiments to see if I could overcome the fuel feed problem, but wasn't in a situation to do it yesterday.
Unfortunately, I had my 6 month old Great Dane with me on the boat, and she's a little too immature aand impulsive to allow thoughful examination processes to proceed at a rate that can make meanngful observations, interpertations, and conclusions.
I can see the fuel feeding up through the tube, but will have to try and determine what is the source of restriction or limited flow.
The tubing is 3/8" and of the same diameter used in fuel supply lines for external tanks. In fact, some of them, used on smaller engines, have 5/16" lines. The line length is not much longer than commonly used in outboard external fuel supply lines, but can be shortened. I'll cut a few unnecessary feet off of it and see what difference it makes.
The valve is another good possibility for a source of restriction which can be temporarily removed.
One of the surprises that I found when initially using the set up was that the Yamaha quick coupling set up, which is copied after the OMC model, is very sensitive to alignment issues. It's a two prong set up, with one prong carrying the fuel and the other being an alignment and locking prong. It seemed to me that the two parts did not lock in their allgned positions well. Another potential source of problems.
Probably the best way to approach the issues would be to eliminate the valve, quick connect, extra tubing, and any other possible source of restriction to see it it will work without them.
If the set up is found to work with these possible sources of restriction removed, they can then be added back in one at a time to see their effect on the pressure drop to the generator's tank and the overall performance of the system.
If the experimenting warrants further investigation,, a sensitive vacuum gauge suitable for use around petroleum products could be placed in series along the line at bolth ends and at the middle sequentially to see if measurable presssure differences exist. This could be done again with the genertor moved from its position on top of the cooler next to the engine down to the floor to see the effect of elevation on the pressure differences. We should be able to determine from these separate measurements whether pressure drop is occuring along the line, and the effect of elevation differences on the pressure drop.
Lots of good fun to have in checking this out, as there's still a lot to be investigated and determined. Like Yogi says, "It's not over 'till it's over!"
Thanks!
Joe.
Thanks for all the thoughts, all well worth checking out!
I'd planned to spend some more time trying different addjustments and doing some experiments to see if I could overcome the fuel feed problem, but wasn't in a situation to do it yesterday.
Unfortunately, I had my 6 month old Great Dane with me on the boat, and she's a little too immature aand impulsive to allow thoughful examination processes to proceed at a rate that can make meanngful observations, interpertations, and conclusions.
I can see the fuel feeding up through the tube, but will have to try and determine what is the source of restriction or limited flow.
The tubing is 3/8" and of the same diameter used in fuel supply lines for external tanks. In fact, some of them, used on smaller engines, have 5/16" lines. The line length is not much longer than commonly used in outboard external fuel supply lines, but can be shortened. I'll cut a few unnecessary feet off of it and see what difference it makes.
The valve is another good possibility for a source of restriction which can be temporarily removed.
One of the surprises that I found when initially using the set up was that the Yamaha quick coupling set up, which is copied after the OMC model, is very sensitive to alignment issues. It's a two prong set up, with one prong carrying the fuel and the other being an alignment and locking prong. It seemed to me that the two parts did not lock in their allgned positions well. Another potential source of problems.
Probably the best way to approach the issues would be to eliminate the valve, quick connect, extra tubing, and any other possible source of restriction to see it it will work without them.
If the set up is found to work with these possible sources of restriction removed, they can then be added back in one at a time to see their effect on the pressure drop to the generator's tank and the overall performance of the system.
If the experimenting warrants further investigation,, a sensitive vacuum gauge suitable for use around petroleum products could be placed in series along the line at bolth ends and at the middle sequentially to see if measurable presssure differences exist. This could be done again with the genertor moved from its position on top of the cooler next to the engine down to the floor to see the effect of elevation on the pressure differences. We should be able to determine from these separate measurements whether pressure drop is occuring along the line, and the effect of elevation differences on the pressure drop.
Lots of good fun to have in checking this out, as there's still a lot to be investigated and determined. Like Yogi says, "It's not over 'till it's over!"
Thanks!
Joe.
hey, how's the R & D coming on the extended fuel tank?
I tried out the generator the other day on it's new & improved combination cockpit love seat/generator stand. I ran it for a while and noticed a large amount of fuel running out around the feet. That is bad. With a bit of research on the Yahoo site, I discovered that it's not uncommon for new units to overflow the carb in the econo throttle mode due to the float sticking. I ran the unit again and sure enough, no leak in full throttle, but overflows the carb at reduced throttle, I proceded to fix unit by dropping it about a foot followed by a sharp rap on the carb with a scewdriver handle followed by some choice verbage. All better now, no leak
I tried out the generator the other day on it's new & improved combination cockpit love seat/generator stand. I ran it for a while and noticed a large amount of fuel running out around the feet. That is bad. With a bit of research on the Yahoo site, I discovered that it's not uncommon for new units to overflow the carb in the econo throttle mode due to the float sticking. I ran the unit again and sure enough, no leak in full throttle, but overflows the carb at reduced throttle, I proceded to fix unit by dropping it about a foot followed by a sharp rap on the carb with a scewdriver handle followed by some choice verbage. All better now, no leak
Ken-
I see you're a devout advocate of the BIGGER HAMMER SCHOOL OF THOUGHT, eh? Drop it from increased heights untill all is well! Sounds like the Soviet space program's landing scheme. We'll have to ask Don if the Navy has such an emergency operations program to deal with stuck hatches, missle tube doors, and the like by running the ship into a seamount at all head full.
I've fixed the remote set up by examining all the possible restriction points and re-sealing the cap to the generator, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet, which I'll probably do later this week.
Yesterday I installed the red 12 v LED rope lights in the cabin, added a interior handle above the dinette berth, and re-swedged the cable on one downrigger.
Will let you know how the tests on the remote tank set up come out ASAP.
Ever hear of a Randy Newman song "Let's Drop the Big One and See What Happens?" A Cold War protest song. He was referring satirically the the not so kindly Mr. H. Dr. Strangelove would have probably been a charter member of the BIGGER HAMMER SCHOOL.
Joe.
I see you're a devout advocate of the BIGGER HAMMER SCHOOL OF THOUGHT, eh? Drop it from increased heights untill all is well! Sounds like the Soviet space program's landing scheme. We'll have to ask Don if the Navy has such an emergency operations program to deal with stuck hatches, missle tube doors, and the like by running the ship into a seamount at all head full.
I've fixed the remote set up by examining all the possible restriction points and re-sealing the cap to the generator, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet, which I'll probably do later this week.
Yesterday I installed the red 12 v LED rope lights in the cabin, added a interior handle above the dinette berth, and re-swedged the cable on one downrigger.
Will let you know how the tests on the remote tank set up come out ASAP.
Ever hear of a Randy Newman song "Let's Drop the Big One and See What Happens?" A Cold War protest song. He was referring satirically the the not so kindly Mr. H. Dr. Strangelove would have probably been a charter member of the BIGGER HAMMER SCHOOL.
Joe.
I also don't have my physics book in front of my, but I believe Pouiselle's Law shows that mass flow increases with radius^4. That is, a slight increase in radius makes a HUGE difference in flow.
Professor hat on:
This is important in cardiovascular physiology when relating relative blood flows in capllaries, small veins, and larger veins (or arteries). Flow rates are -very- low in small-diameter capillaries, providing for nutrient and gas exchange (assuming not too much CO in the system; see previous messages). The arterioles are the smallest arteries, just before the capillaries. Modest increases in arteriolar diameter lead to -huge- increases in blood flow, e.g. during muscular exercise. (2x radius = 16x flow! Or more realistically, a 10% increase in radius leads to a 46% increase in flow.)
Professor hat off.
Having said all this -- I still suspect tank height is the main issue here . . . :wink:
Ed
Professor hat on:
This is important in cardiovascular physiology when relating relative blood flows in capllaries, small veins, and larger veins (or arteries). Flow rates are -very- low in small-diameter capillaries, providing for nutrient and gas exchange (assuming not too much CO in the system; see previous messages). The arterioles are the smallest arteries, just before the capillaries. Modest increases in arteriolar diameter lead to -huge- increases in blood flow, e.g. during muscular exercise. (2x radius = 16x flow! Or more realistically, a 10% increase in radius leads to a 46% increase in flow.)
Professor hat off.
Having said all this -- I still suspect tank height is the main issue here . . . :wink:
Ed
Fun to play with!
Normal atmospheric pressure at sea level is approx. 14.7 lbs / square inch.
This will push water up into a barometric tube about 34 feet. (Some of the original barometers were water tubes on the side of buildings.)
Gas is approx 7/10 as dense as water, hence it will go up 10/7 as far as water = 10/7 x 34 = 48.5 feet.
The lift required in the boat is about 2 feet.
The proportion of the lift available to that required is 2/48.5, = 0.04, or 4%.
4% x 14.7 lbs / sq inch = 0.588 or .6 lb / sq inch.
So what does this mean? I'm not 100% sure either! But it does seem low. The apparatus did lift gas in the first test, but I suspect the difference in pressure inside the carburetor due to the lifting process cut the supply of gas pressure to the main jet down enough to limit the response of the motor to the added electrical load. We'll find out by leveling out the generator with the gas tanks.
The gas lines and componednts are all normal external gas tank elements or the equivalent in size, and the (cut down) length is no longer than commonly found in gas supply systems.
Time for some testing!
Joe.
Normal atmospheric pressure at sea level is approx. 14.7 lbs / square inch.
This will push water up into a barometric tube about 34 feet. (Some of the original barometers were water tubes on the side of buildings.)
Gas is approx 7/10 as dense as water, hence it will go up 10/7 as far as water = 10/7 x 34 = 48.5 feet.
The lift required in the boat is about 2 feet.
The proportion of the lift available to that required is 2/48.5, = 0.04, or 4%.
4% x 14.7 lbs / sq inch = 0.588 or .6 lb / sq inch.
So what does this mean? I'm not 100% sure either! But it does seem low. The apparatus did lift gas in the first test, but I suspect the difference in pressure inside the carburetor due to the lifting process cut the supply of gas pressure to the main jet down enough to limit the response of the motor to the added electrical load. We'll find out by leveling out the generator with the gas tanks.
The gas lines and componednts are all normal external gas tank elements or the equivalent in size, and the (cut down) length is no longer than commonly found in gas supply systems.
Time for some testing!
Joe.