Gas Prices

M,
Wow, you folks are sooo ahead of the curve. :hug2 True greenies you folks are. :beer I think these outlaws around here still burn coal. I'm not sure these all electric cars are going to really make it without all the subsidies. Who paid for the electric car lot? Maybe we can sell them something too. I guess if you stay close to the porch the electrics are ok. But I doubt I would want to jump in one for a long weekend on a 800 mile round trip. I guess you could carry along a Honda generator and a couple cans of gas. Maybe Exxon will start selling electricity at their stations. The next thing will be battery graveyards Learn something new everyday. :mrgreen:
D.D.
 
D.D

Maybe I'm wrong and they are just for the kids "hangin out" so they can charge their various, indespensible electronic appendages :lol:

Hey how about having them show movies. Could be a whole new concept for a drive in theater....

(Gas pumps do it!!)

M
 
As I said before, they will hit us with a milage tax on electric cars to make up for the lose of gas tax. Another thing to factor in electric car costs. C-Otter
 
I'm going to be using the snot out of an electric car this weekend....playing golf in Bend

aint nothing new about hybred vehicles, Did I ever mention that M's grand dad work extensively with hybred vehicles back around the turn of the century? he helped develop a lot of the irrigation ditches in central WA...with a mule team

hybrid, electric, bio-diesel all good, all part of the answer but like all tools have their applications. An electric rig for putting around town would be great. I think long term cng will be the ticket.....it's ironic that cng is a very clean burning fuel yet the enviros went nuts when there was talk of a cng terminal on the columbia

10-roger on the road tax, the reduced road taxes collected from electric cars & bicycles will have to be made up somehow if we want decent roads.
 
Will-C":eel1lfhf said:
True greenies you folks are. :beer I think these outlaws around here still burn coal.D.D.

That "clean" electricity has to come from somewhere. Take your pick: coal (dirty), hydro (oh, the poor salmon!), wind (NIMBY, lots of ugly turbines and the birds...oh, the poor birds), solar (NIMBY, expensive), nuclear (yeah....right). Maybe we should all be living in caves, riding horses and killing dinosaurs for dinner. :wink:
 
I just read this in the newspapers (so it must be true, Right!!;))

I still wish someone who has one of these vehicles would produce the actual figures for the total cost of ownership over some given period of time. Agreed the future is crystal ball territory but can we have some today figures from someone??

My mind is still open on the subject but I am sceptical with only being given 1/2 of the story that suits.

Sorry for the long post
:-

DETROIT (AP) - At 118 miles per gallon, the Honda Fit electric vehicle is the most fuel-efficient in the United States. But getting that mileage isn't cheap - and it isn't always good for the environment.

Honda announced the eye-popping figure Wednesday, making the small, four-door hatchback more efficient than electric rivals like the Ford Focus, Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. It goes on the market this summer in Oregon and California.

The electric Fit has an estimated price tag nearly twice as high as the gasoline-powered version. It would take 11 years before a driver makes up the difference and begins saving on fuel.

With gas prices falling, the high sticker price for electric vehicles is becoming more of a barrier for American buyers, even though the vehicles are far more efficient than their gas-powered counterparts. That's hurting sales of electrics.

Through May, carmakers sold just over 10,000 electric vehicles, less than 0.2 percent of U.S. car and truck sales.

That's because the numbers don't add up for the average consumer.

- The electric Fit needs 28.6 kilowatt hours of electricity to go 100 miles. At the national average price of 11.6 cents per kilowatt hour, that costs $3.30.

A gas-powered automatic-transmission Fit, which gets 31 miles per gallon, needs to burn 3.2 gallons to travel 100 miles. At the national average price of $3.57 per gallon of gasoline, that's $11.52.

- People drive an average of almost 13,500 miles a year, so a typical driver would spend $445 on electricity for an electric Fit over a year, and $1,552 on gasoline for a regular Fit.

- Honda has valued the price of an electric Fit at $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit. That's $12,210 more than the gas-powered Fit - a savings of $1,107 per year to make up the difference between the electric and the gas-powered version.

Customers don't want to spend the extra money up front and wait for years for payback, said Geoff Pohanka, who runs 13 auto dealerships in Virginia and Maryland, including three that sell the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt electric cars.

"People are smart. They're looking for the deal," he said. "Is somebody going to fork out $15,000 more for something that gets them less range than their car now? It's not happening."

At first, Honda will only be leasing Fit EVs in Oregon and California, for $389 per month. The subcompact seats up to five people and can be recharged in three hours with a 240-volt charging station. A fully charged Fit EV can go 82 miles, meaning a daily commute could cost nothing for gasoline.

And leases can make sense for consumers. Carmakers can lower rates and subsidize deals in order to make a car - especially one with new, expensive technology - more attractive to buyers.

Jesse Toprak, vice president of market intelligence for the car buying site TrueCar.com, said he tested an electric Chevrolet Volt, driving it less than 35 miles a day from his Los Angeles-area home to work and back. The cost of leasing it - $369 a month - is comparable to the $300 he would spend on gas.

"In a lot of these cases, I'm surprised that people are not lining up to get these things," he said.

The comparison between gas and electric cars also can vary with geography, largely because energy prices vary wildly across the country.

In Oregon, where gasoline is 18 percent more expensive than the national average and electricity is 16 percent lower, an electric Fit will save $121 per month in fuel. In Connecticut, which has the highest power prices in the country, the monthly savings are just $83.

The fuel used to generate electric power and the cost of gasoline also vary by region -and that affects how environmentally friendly an electric car purchase is.

In Midwestern states that rely heavily on coal, driving an electric car produces 18 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than driving a typical gasoline-powered car, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Surprisingly, driving an electric car there produces 50 percent more greenhouse gases than driving a 50 mpg electric hybrid.

In the Northeast and Northwest, where a bigger portion of the power is produced with nuclear reactors, hydroelectric dams, natural gas-fired power plants and wind farms, an electric car will produce 76 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than a typical gasoline-powered car and 56 percent fewer emissions than a hybrid.

No matter what the energy costs, Honda expects to trumpet the Fit EV's 118 mpg figure, even though it will lease only 1,100 of the cars in its first two years on the market.

Honda predicts that the initial customers for the Fit EV will won't be focusing on a cost-benefit analysis. Instead, they'll want to make a statement about cutting greenhouse gases and reducing dependence on foreign oil, said Robert Langford, Honda's manager of plug-in electric vehicle sales.

Like the rest of the auto industry, Honda isn't sure when or if electric vehicles will ever replace those that run on gas, he said. The company keeps constant watch on sales of electric cars already on the market like the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt.

"That's constantly on our mind right now and on our radar screen," said Langford.

Chevrolet doesn't actively market the Volt's 94 mpg figure, because it's too confusing to explain to consumers that the car can drive that distance while running on electricity. The Volt, unlike other electrics, has a small gas engine on board to generate power for the car after the battery is depleted.

What resonates more with consumers is that the average Volt driver goes 900 miles before buying gasoline, said Cristi Landry, the car's marketing director.

She also isn't sure when electric cars will go beyond the environmentally conscious buyer and into the rest of America's driveways.

Electric vehicles, Toprak said, won't sell en masse until customers know they will ultimately save enough to take a risk on new technology.

"You're not buying it to save the trees," Toprak said. "You're buying it to save money for yourself."




M
 
So let me see if I have this right. Electric cars cost twice as much, some subsidized with tax dollars / tax credits from the pockets of taxpayers. By the time any cost savings is realized owners will have to spring for a new expensive battery. Now the gumints make less money on gas taxes to finance the roads so will they increase taxes (taxpayers get hit again) on gas and other fuels. I hope they are getting a piece on the electric charging stations per killiwatt hour. They need to make bicycles pay for licence plates and parking as they ride on the roads also. (no free ride) Maybe electric cars need to pay use a tax per mile. We are totally out of control. :lol:
D.D.
 
IIRC Wa. State has a $100/yr tax...er, fee, on hybrid/electric car owners to make up for "lost revenue" due to them not paying the high fuel taxes here. Also, I agree that bike riders need to pay their "fair share" for roads they use. Heck in Seattle they get dedicated roads/overpasses etc that cars cannot use and they pay nothing. That doesn't seem "fair" to me. :P
 
Grumpy":3eqnssoy said:
I still wish someone who has one of these vehicles would produce the actual figures for the total cost of ownership over some given period of time. Agreed the future is crystal ball territory but can we have some today figures from someone??

My mind is still open on the subject but I am sceptical with only being given 1/2 of the story that suits.


M

I gave some numbers around 7 pages ago.

You might also check out the GM-Volt sight. Yesterday they had a discussion about how the car pays for it self.

Of the electric cars and hybrids I chose the Volt for the extended range capability. I can drive the car across country without a charge. You can not drive a pure electric car to our area. You would have to push it into town as we are 80 miles from the nearest city. Some cars are now available with an 80 mile range but are you going to chance it when some many variables may shorten you driving range. When compared to the other electric cars the cost was not that much more.

Also mentioned in the article at the Volt site was that the car's resale value has been really high. Those who have traded out after a year may have lost a few thousand in value after the tax credits. Not to bad as most newer cars I have traded in cost me over 10k in first year depreciation.

After having driven this car for six months I can tell you that my favorite part of ownership has been the gas savings. I am still at less than 24 gallons purchased to do 6200 miles. My jeep took 10 gallons to do a 100 mile off road trip. That cost $40. My gas cost to drive the volt has been around $108. My electric cost increase is hard to measure as I have two charging stations. The one at home is on a separate meter from the house and I have only seen $20 a month increases there. At the office the meter is not separate and I have added additional staff so I do not see the car's impact on the office bill. If you want an e cost factor it will depend on your local utility rates. Here, we get our power from Oregon and the rates are reasonable. I have heard that in the bay area the electric rates are so high that there is no real savings.

You will just have to do your own research to see if the car will pay for itself thru fuel savings. For me it does. I am grumpy to after I a pull a $100 bill out to fill up the van. The vans fuel now lasts around 3 months but I still hate pulling out the Franklin. Now those pictures of them dead presidents hangs a little longer. (Note a blues song)

My crystal ball says fuel is only going to get more expensive in the long run. I use the last 45 years of buying fuel to make my prediction.
 
Lets not forget about the other factors that contribute to the total cost of fuel burning vehicles - not just the total cost of ownership to the individual but the total cost to everyone - add in the environmental costs AND the defense costs to keep that middle east oil flowing. Then the tax payer contribution to /loss from those driving a gasoline powered car is a bit higher than some might think. For example, we're into the middle east alone for a few trillion $ over the past few years. That's about $10,000 for every man, woman and child in the U.S. I'm not going to make an argument over whether that's a good or a bad thing but I will say that our primary interest in the middle east is oil. I suspect that if there weren't any oil there we wouldn't be so willing to spend our military $'s there.

The costs of ocean acidification and global climate change due to dumping increasing amounts of CO2 into the air are harder to estimate but are likely to be far more than our defense budget in the long run. The best short term solution IMHO is to invest heavily in public transportation and reduce the total number of vehicles on the road for those day trips into and out of the cities. That alone, would probably have more impact on our fuel usage than any other single change we can make.
 
Tube rider: More power to you,I would like to know the carbon emissions per mile on electric cars that are not charged from solar. hydro, wind or nuc generating plants. Still I think good on you.
Rodger: Well said. There is a lot more to think about than just the here and now.
Marty: As Sgt. Joe Friday said " Just the facts mame"
 
Remember the question on this thread about the VW car that was sold in Europe that got 70+ miles per gallon but wasn't allowed to be sold in the U.S.?

I saw a video on that by a fellow who had done some research to find out why it wasn't allowed to be sold here.

His observation was that the EPA and other authorities said that the amount of pollutants produced per gallon of fuel didn't meet U.S. Standards, although the amount of pollutants produced per mile of travel was within limits.

From this, his conclusion was that they wouldn't approve it because the final amount of fuel tax paid per mile of vehicle travel was too low to support highway maintenance in the accustomed manner(!)

That's hard to believe, let alone swallow, but if true, would really be a big factor in how said governmental agencies would be looking at electric vehicles.

Do you think they will try to impose some substitute tax on electric cars to make up for lost fuel tax revenues?

What will happen when more vehicles are electric rather than fossil fuel powered?

(Sorry, I haven't been able to locate the video!)

It's a crazy world, no?

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
localboy":2awhbe6x said:
Also, I agree that bike riders need to pay their "fair share" for roads they use. Heck in Seattle they get dedicated roads/overpasses etc that cars cannot use and they pay nothing. That doesn't seem "fair" to me. :P

Mark brings up a good point that concerns many people.
Here's a recent discussion on Seattle station KUOW about this very question. Click under "Listen to Weekday"(only the first 15 minutes of the program is/are relevant). While it probably won't change anyone's opinion, it does confirm that "every answer brings a whole new set of questions"
http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=26953
 
localboy":1m7mntuh said:
Also, I agree that bike riders need to pay their "fair share" for roads they use. Heck in Seattle they get dedicated roads/overpasses etc that cars cannot use and they pay nothing. That doesn't seem "fair" to me. :P

Just because I'm on the road on my bicycle doesn't mean I didn't pay my "fair share". I also own a car and two trucks and paid for tabs on those. When I drive, I also pay the fuel tax. I also never apply for the fuel tax rebate for any fuel I use in my boat. So to assume that I've paid "nothing" is simply not accurate and I bet it's not accurate for most bicycle riders. Moreover, when I'm on my bike, I'm on a trail for 90+% of my ride and during that time, I'm helping all the car commuter bet to work a little bit faster by not contributing to the congestion.
 
Gas prices so far as I'm working my way up the Inside Passage:

Secret Cove: $1.499/liter
Lagoon Cove: $1.489/liter
Sullivan Bay: $1.599/liter
Port Hardy: $1.296/liter

Prices are in Canadian dollars and I haven't converted them into USD/gallon.
 
Marty wrote: ..."every answer brings a whole new set of questions"...

Isn't that the truth, Marty. Look at how long this thread has survived and we still discuss it ad nauseum. Personally, I just do the best I can. I conserve when possible, combine trips, use the Sounder when it works...I ride my bike to the store...hell, I've even driven my old VW bus to conserve gasoline. I'd love an F250 that gets the mileage of a Prius but right now, that's not possible. I won't stop using the boat, even though it will cost more this summer. Oh well. It's like the weather; I can complain but it won't change the rain any. :lol:
 
Can't drive 55? … 65? … 75? How about 85?

A stretch of Texas highway may soon be the first road in the country to have a posted 85 mph speed limit.

The Texas Department of Transportation said this week that part of a toll road being built between Austin and San Antonio will be tested to see if motorists can safely push it to 85.

"It was designed under extremely high design parameters," Darren McDaniel, the state's Speed Management Director told WOAI radio.

Texas and Utah are the only states with 80-mph limits on some roadways. But Texas turned heads when lawmakers gave the green light to go to 85 if needed.

"The higher the speed limit, the more accidents there are, the more injuries and the more deaths," Jerry Johns, president of the Southwest Insurance Information Institute, told Reuters last year.

Eighty-five mph would be the second-highest posted speed limit in the world, according to the European auto rental firm Rhino Car Hire, Reuters reported. Some roads in Poland reportedly allow speeds of about 86 mph.

Texas hopes the faster toll road will help relieve one of the country's most congested interstates, between Austin and San Antonio.

"It's in a straight, flat area," TxDOT spokesman Mark Cross told Yahoo. "Safety is a priority. We want to make sure people understand that."
Can a Volt or Prius do 85? The Texabon :shock:
D.D.
 
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