following seas

1

1TUBERIDER

New member
I took a high school friend and his buddy and my friend a pro camera guy out for some fishing and picture opts yesterday. Weather was a little breezy offshore but not to bad. Friend got sick, so I took him in and then went back out to fish. Bite was slow so we took off for reefs north of town and the light house. Got out there after a trip at 5 7 knots due to conditions and running into swell. Not much current at first for fishing then the wind freshened and our drift increased so we gave up fishing and my photographer friend wanted light house pictures. Motored out to the light house at around 5 knots as wind swell was stacking on ground swell and white caps all over.

It was rough when I pulled up on the light house. Stayed on the down wind side taking pictures and when done started journey home. Powered up and first swell came from behind and the boat started chine walking and wanting to roll to starboard. It was a handful to get straightened out and I did so by backing off power.

At five knots I was getting launched down swells if I did not back off. Swells were easily in the 8 to 10 foot range with white caps. Every time I accelerated to put my bow on the back of a swell I would start chine walking and had to back off. I covered 6 or seven miles in these conditions until conditions improved (near shore) and then I accelerated to normal for me down swell running.

Let me tell you it was quite an adventure and all my crew would say was how great I was at handling the boat. I do have lots of experience running the rough stuff. The little boat came thru but I do not understand why it was chine walking so bad. Motors were trimmed for running, trim tabs were up and boat was pretty balanced. Until this last trip I felt this boat would handle anything but I think I found its limit or mine.

Do you have any rough water experience to share. Was your boat misbehaving?
How did you end up dealing with it either thru speed or adjustment controls.

When I got back to port, wind was out of the south and no swell on south beach. The near shore conditions were completely different and not many knew how rough of a journey we just had. And last nite my friends were still calling me captain. I guess they were happy to be back on terra firma. Out.
 
You had the weight evenly loaded with bow light and up. You slowed down. All the right moves in my book. Was the wind right on your stern? If the wind is quartering, or abeam, and you have to slow down to the point where the wind is steering the boat as much or more than the wheel, and you're crabbing across the waves . . .

8-10 footers with white on the top sounds scary, but as far as I can see, you did all the right things. Sometimes the ocean's just gonna remind you it can win.
 
I've had similar experiences in my 22 in a following sea. My boat is equipped with a permatrim not trim tabs but i've found that trimming the motor up a bit to raise the bow and push the stern down helped alot.
Most times in these situations I still feel uneasy when dropping into the trough, constantly adjusting throttle to reduce the boats tendency to "walk". Not sure if its just a bad characteristic of the hull design or something that can be compensated for but it is not a good feeling when this happens. From the things i've tried like load distribution and wave contact angle, motor trim and throttle seemed the most effective. Good luck!
 
Did the same thing (almost) in my 22 about 7 years ago. Coming North in the C-Bay, running with big swells, trying to control the boat. A Rear Admiral friend leaned on the table (which inconveniently collapsed, since fixed so it won't) when we almost broached, went down in the aisle, I went down on top of him and he sustained a compound fracture of his left ankle. Had to run for a marina on the York River and called an ambulance. He was operated on that night at a local hospital and still has six screws in the joint.

He walks fine and plays golf, took about three months to recover and his wife (I don't think) has forgiven either one of us! :shock:

It can be a very hairy situation, glad you were both OK!
 
My experience is to trim the bow up, keep the hand on the throttle and always try and stay on the back of the wave. If you have to go over the top--pick a smaller wave. But if chine walking, then the bow was trimmed down too much, and you were going down the steep face of a wave. Some times quartering off will help, so that you are not going straight down wind/wave--and then "jibing" to the other side. Sometimes doing this I am able to run at a faster speed along the top of the wave--but it remains a balancing act--and reflexes take over.
 
I agree with Bob on the trim setup and speed.

We ran from Langford, MD, south to Va. Beach, VA in 4-6+' following seas, with chop, and found it comfortable, though slow. I quartered several times every few minutes and 'picked' my way thru the stuff. There wasn't any walking.

The only time I had a challenge was when I had to come-about into the waves to check on another CD traveling with us. This did bring 'green' water over the whole vessel, but the use of the twins helped a lot in controlling the situation. I would do it again. Returning to our southerly course was more challenging, trying to find that 'lull' to make a smooth turn within the seas and visability we had.

As a side note to this -
I made up my mind that I would add a momentary switch for each wiper to clear the windshield rather than play with the rocker switches. Now the mate and I can activate the wipers. I also added a fresh water washer so I could clear the 2 windshields of the dried salt to minimize the glare.

Art
 
How fast do you think you were going when the boat was chine walking? I don't think I've heard of anyone having that happen unless they were really pushing the boat.

When it's too rough to stand up comfortably, that's too rough for this old codger to want to be out.
 
Chine walking is when the boat is pushed one side or the other as a chine grabs the water. As the chine grabs, the boat turns in that direction--the chine acts as a forward rudder. This usually occurs either at high speed with unstable boats at that speed. (The chine is the hard point between the bottom and the side of the boat--and is a technical term for the wood which produced that point in older boats. There are hard chine (C Dory) and soft chine (lobster boats or down east type) boats. Even the soft or round chine boats will broach--not chine walk--since they don't obtain that high speed, and the chine will not grab.

What is described is actually more bow steering going down wind wave, or trimmed bow down too much. In this case, the flat side of the bow becomes a planing surface as the boat accelorates down the face of the wave, causing the boat to veer to one side or the other. This can occur in any speed boat--and is the first stages of a broach (if not corrected). A broach occurs when the bow digs in and then the boat is thrown beam to the seas, and there is then a danger of the boat rolling in very heavy seas. These conditions can occur when running breaking bars--and are very dangerous.
 
Tuberider,
My thoughts are you may have reached the performance limits of what can be expected from the hard chine and "flat" aft section of hull. No basic stability combined with a high roll center equals unexpected performance under conditions such as you have described. With a moderate "V" design, and perhaps some initial keel ballast, handling would certainly be improved. All vessels are compromises but I think we all enjoy the performance characteristics of C-Dory, even when the going gets rough!
 
I've been pounded and beat up pretty badly over the years in the North Gulf of Alaska and my experience is to not go out when it is questionable. I don't think you made a great choice going back out into building seas. There has been a time or two that I have litterally kissed the dock in Seward I was so glad to be out of it. But, when it is questionable coming back in, because at some point you just have to make a run for it, I run the trim very close to a middle setting, try to quarter waves, or even try to cruise between them, use the throttle as required, but not too much, and not too little, and pick my way around and occasionally through, the big stuff. I also really pay careful attention to my speed. While it seems prudent to hurry along and get back, often that is the worst thing one can do as these boats do well at 6 kts just sloggin through it. I also try to avoid places that accentuate the swell and the currents. Rocky reefs with irregular bottoms make things much worse. As do capes and points - especially with a tide running. Your friend didn't do you any favors by wanting the pictures. I have found over the years, that I just say no when these conditions exist. Sometimes they are ticked, but the way I look at it, they are alive to complain about it, the boat didn't sink, and everyone was safe.....

As for the chine walking. I found that too much speed combined with any trim (engine or tabs) putting the bow into the waves causes this. A non agressive middle setting works best. I believe one could turn a CD 22 over pretty easily in a 10 foot sea with some wind waves running a down a wave with too much speed and an aggressive trim setting. In my less experienced days, I came close on several occassions....slow learner I guess....
 
Burgerosborne":1ap4fjo6 said:
What is Chine walking? New on this forum and don't own a boat yet. Just lurking around and learning from your experience before we jump in :shock:
Click to expand...

Love the screen name and Burgers too! In case you didn't know what a Chine was either it's the hard point (turn) where the side of the boat meets the bottom. Some boats are rounded at that point, some have hard, nearly right angles. It's that part that "catches" and makes the boat slip sideways acts kind of like a big rudder, seems out of control at times. :shock:

Scary the first time you feel it but it's something you will get used to.

Charlie
 
Chine walking? As a newbe to c-dory & the ocean im still wrestling with bow steering, now theres chine walking too?Im 14 miles from the ramp up over the mountains & thru the woods so noaa has become my new best friend but I have to be carefull about believing everything he says as he has been known to lie.Tuberider, if you see a blue 19 out there, say hello.Vern/C-dog in Hiouchi
 
We've been going in and out of Bellingham Bay about 4 times this summer. The wind for the last 6 weeks has been blowing 10-15 knts from the south. I now have more respect for the C-dory 25 than before. Though that bay makes you pay for going through it, that boat is equal to it.

Today, we came out to Lummi Isl, first into head seas and then into beam seas. A crummy ride, but do-able as long as you kept it slow. Judy got most of the waves. The boat just chugged through.

Last week we came in from Friday Harbour, the wind was blowing 15- 20 knts and it was rough through Rosario Strait, but we passed the deep V's crossing. Then we hit Bellingham Bay and hit the following seas. Just like riding a bike in the desert, going sideways, keep the power on. I don't know squat about chine walking, but I do know about sliding down the side of a wave, just turn down the wave, keep the power cranked. Made it in and both grandchildern were impressed, Kate wanted to be at Auntie Laura's and Max was pumped.

So this is a comment on "is the C-Dory seaworthy." You betcha, just adjust to the conditions. Slow down upwind, keep the power on downwind, and you at least stay near the deep-V's. And enjoy going sideways.

Also, for free, a comment on Bellingham Bay. We've never had a smooth ride either in or out. Especially this year. Sorry, R-Matey, but that's a crappy ride.

Boris
 
I agree with what others are saying above. Our 25 has a heavy stern with twins, permatrims, and usually lots of fuel and in conditions tough enough to make my wife very upset, the boat was no problem but did need constant attention. We encountered breaking waves from 5 to 8ft and winds over 30 knots for nearly 1.5 hours on a bad day this winter and there have been other less severe conditions we encountered since. If I even think about having my tabs down or my motors trimmed level or below, Aurelia bow steers and chine walks me into a wrestling match with the wheel. In following conditions severe enough to prohibit planing speeds for sure, I put tabs up, trim both motors up just a bit above level, and use the throttle to dance with the waves the best I can. My sea kayaking background actually helps a lot to read the surface and recognize opportunities to ride it out best. After too long fighting into that wind, I decided to give Cindie and break and start zig zagging our way to the nearest shore about 3 miles away. The transitions went good (Pudgy on the roof) and I was happy to feel only stability when taking large waves on the beam. Large following waves are fun for me and I like the challenge of surfing them well. It takes a longer wavelength and about 5ft+ waves to surf a 25 very well.

In truly horrible conditions, I still wish I was in the kayak as long as I don't need to make headway upwind.
 
Ah, the old zig zag.....I do it all the time....While it seems counterintuitive to do it, I think one gets there faster. In fact, if you play the game just right, you can often go pretty dang fast. The only problem: well most of the time you are not going in the exact direction you want to go. It's more of a general direction.....
 
"Ah, the old zig zag...."
Click to expand...

Also known as the jog and slog

It comes in handy crossing the Strait of Juan occasionally.

As to following seas, have to harken back to surfing days. That Flat bottom does that well, but you have to be back on the board, not out there hanging ten, (Weight back, tabs up, engines out to mid tilt, nothing pointing the bow down.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
It is rare that a C Dory will chine walk--this most likely will only occur at very high speeds (over 30 knots for a C Dory). What is being described is bow steerint, yaw and early stages of a broach.

The point is well made that one hand has to be on the wheel and one on the throttle when in rough seas. You just cannot "drive" thru them.

If you have even been involved with offshore racing powerboats, there is a good reason that they have a separate throttleman, as was as a person who steers the boat.
 
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