FCC and their relationship to "lightsourced"

I only was giving one of many examples of how it is unlikely that such a mature and established technology related to safety among many other things (timing being very huge) would be wiped out as part of new wireless plan.

Nearly all phones actually do have GPS technology in them but not exactly a GPS chip. The hardware components are often shared with voice components because it is cheaper to share parts. This causes problems when trying to use GPS and voice at the same time and is part of the reason that the tower triangulation approach is so widely used. It is referred to as Assisted GPS and uses a blend of both methods in practice. In situations where a gps function would not work such as inside some buildings, the assisted portion really plays an important role. The phone hardware specifics also vary buy service provider as some have more tower/network control and flexibility than others based on how much of there service areas are covered by leased bandwidth. I'm sure there are other factors around the country with variations in provider methods but that is the general picture here. I am (reluctantly) part of a technical panel for E911 implemention for the state of Washington. It is interesting stuff but I have not had time to pay too much attention outside of my realm of influence.
 
Roger, You are correct, I did mis-quote you. I too have read the reports and it does seem that GPS was assuming that the neigborhood would remain "quiet" rather than building over the lot line.

I hope that the process of determining that there is no negative effect on GPS will kill this idea but I see it developing into an endless $$$$ driven argument in which the legal fees will only add to the bill that we, as taxpayers will end up paying. As a scientist I am sure you know well how "trial by nodding expert on CNN/Fox" goes.

Since it was the "government" that gave Lightsquared this spectrum to play in and the whole issue of 4G is probably pretty important to telecomms in this country (which are way behind where they should be in comparison to some others) I suspect that we the people will end up either having to compensate them or find them another sandbox to play in.

Good news is that there appears to be some quite heavy opposition.

Fun to watch.

M
 
When I originally posted this I wasn't real concerned that it would actually happen because it basically defies reason and would run into really heavy opposition. What really bothered me was that the government gave them the spectrum range and bypassed all the input opportunities. I think that examination will show that the committee of 34 was formed after approval was given by FCC.
 
lloyds":3bgc341d said:
When I originally posted this I wasn't real concerned that it would actually happen because it basically defies reason and would run into really heavy opposition. What really bothered me was that the government gave them the spectrum range and bypassed all the input opportunities. I think that examination will show that the committee of 34 was formed after approval was given by FCC.
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Lightsquared wasn't given their range of spectrum, they either bid on it (e.g. paid $'s for it) or leased it from another company that bid on it. What the FCC did was grant them a ill conceived waver to use that spectrum in a different way. At present it looks like Light Squared is seeking to buy/lease other spectra on which to build their land based network. It already has $2-3B invested in the L-Band spectrum (near the GPS frequency) and the fact that it is moving quickly to seek additional spectrum indicates to me that they realize (and have since at least early March) that the L-band plan isn't going to fly. It will be interesting to see if they can raise enough money to make this mid stream shift prior to going down the toilet entirely.
 
Well, my usual opinion is that a well funded corporation will have its way. And my only recourse is to stay out of sight and try to minimize the damage.

However there is an article in the San Diego newspaper that might offer a ray of light, since it mentions the DoD (the power behind the throne) and the FFA as against it. And if a conservative newspaper is against a corporation, there has to be something behind it.

Quote

WASHINGTON — A new, ultra-fast wireless Internet network is threatening to overpower GPS signals across the U.S. and interfere with everything from airplanes to police cars to consumer navigation devices.
........

A technical fix could be expensive - billions of dollars by one estimate - and there's no agreement on who should pay. Government officials pledge to block LightSquared from turning on its network as scheduled this year unless they receive assurances that GPS systems will still work.
........
LightSquared's network could also undermine the Federal Aviation Administration's multi-billion-dollar program to upgrade the nation's air-traffic control system, which is based on World War II-era radar technology.

The new GPS-based system is more precise and lets planes fly more direct routes. That will save airlines time, money and fuel and cut pollution. It is also key to accommodating projected increases in airline traffic by enabling planes to fly safely closer together.

Even the Pentagon has expressed concern as it relies on GPS to guide planes, ships, armored vehicles, weapons and troops. .....

End quote

Also, the article says that Lightsquared claims that it would cost 30 cents to fix all NEW GPS sets. Doesn't mention all the OLD GPS sets, as that isn't their job or nickel.

Boris

Boris
 
The estimated $0.30 to fix all new GPS's undoubtedly doesn't include the engineering costs to redesign the circuit boards etc. and the cost to test to see if the proposed fix will actually work. That's just the company trying to spin things.
 
I talked to father the other night about it. My father has been building , installing, designing and working in the construction and testing end of the telecommunication business since 64'. He was on the first wave of microwave, fiber optics and cell. He's built it all including base stations for satellites. he has worked for gte, sprint, at&t, verizon, bell(mom and babies) etc. he was head of constrution for US Sprint for the west coast before starting his own company. To say he know his sh*t is a under statement. I would say that he has forgotten more about this then most people will ever know but the man does not forget anything. My question to him after reading all your post and a lot of news articles , websites and blogs was 1) will it be a problem and 2) is it fixable. Dad believes that it is and will be a serious problem unless Light squared can spot the bleed over the spectrum to gps. He does not see this as possible even with filters at that high of a output. He also added that with the FAA moving away from radar as a tracking method and moving to all commercial air traffic using a gps based transponder to locate and track flights that the resistance LS will be high and impassable. With the news that they are now looking for other spectrum i would say that that's the case.
 
matt_unique":islpsajd said:
Da Nag":islpsajd said:
Great topic...I'm looking forward to hearing more details on the issue as things go forward.

But the following crap - I'll ask only once. Take it elsewhere.

localboy":islpsajd said:
...our Presidents' zeal to deliver on his promise of 4G to all citizens...
Click to expand...

So I have a question: Is "4G for all" considered "life", "liberty" or "the pursuit of happiness"? I must have missed this "right" during all those poli-sci courses.
Click to expand...

lloyds":islpsajd said:
You should ask the pres for his take on that one.
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Thank you Bill.

I love talking about boats here.
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And remember, no dissenting views allowed here. :wink This is the first I've heard of this, sounds interesting. Locally, our county was going ahead on a free wifi for all system. 3 citys were completed before the money ran out with the market crash. Oh, it was also privately funded by the local buisness community. Our government is not the most efficient when working with other peoples money. I think that ATT and Verizon will have a 4g network faster than than the U.S. will and cheaper. The cell companies pay big bucks every month to plant a cell tower tree in peoples back yards. If the government does it, will people have a choice? Or will eminent domain rule the day. Of course we could put them on the property of only people who make $250,000 or more and stick it to them. I've been told many times that they are the real bad guys.
 
one interesting thing I learned from talking to my father is how easy it will be to set up the light square network. unlike cell that needs to be on top of a vantage point to cover the largest area between towers the LS units dont and are not designed to cover a large area. The satellite signal will cover the majority of the country. the 40,000 earth stations are relays to cover are the blind sports in cities, deep canyons, and other areas that do not have a clear shot of the sky. I did not know it but that is how satellite radio is used today. There are thousands of earth stations all over the country, mostly in cities, that supply added coverage to blind spots. Sirius Radio acts in the same way as LS will only its off it's own corner of the spectrum where it will not bleed over into any thing useful.
the units themselves will be about 3x3x6 feet. Just mount it to the location you need (side of a building or bridge) and attach the power. Should be easy.
 
starcrafttom":wj1if2el said:
The satellite signal will cover the majority of the country. the 40,000 earth stations are relays to cover are the blind sports in cities, deep canyons, and other areas that do not have a clear shot of the sky.
Click to expand...

If that's true, this service will suck compared to "real" broadband - just as existing satellite services do.

It's a physical impossibility to remove the latency from satellite transmissions. Any such system will always be a second class citizen to land-based broadband. It's simply unusable for many things - VOIP (internet phones), gaming, or anything else that is highly interactive.

My take on this whole mess, is pretty simple - if not cynical. It's all about money.

Assuming the technical details being mentioned here are correct, Lightsource knows the system will never see the light of day using the frequencies being discussed. So, my assumption is they are pushing this for one of two reasons:

- To leverage access to another frequency range without the problems of GPS interference, without paying the massive bucks needed to do so otherwise

- To lay the foundation for a massive payout via litigation for being unable to use something they "rightfully" have access to.

Of the two, my bet is on the former - less hassle, and much larger long-term payout. Not that threats of litigation won't be made...such actions will simply help secure rights to other frequencies.
 
now that's if they model it after Sirius radio. There is a chance that it will be all land based. I cant seem
to find that info one way or the other. You are right I don't see how this system will be of much good for VOI or even gaming if it has to bounce of a satellite. The speed will just suck and there is nothing you can do about that.
 
Is it dead, or still on hold, until lightSquared can prove (involving the full FCC panel) that there is no GPS interference? Now that congress is involved, it may well delay the project, and LS may loose the spectrum if they are not up and running within the time frame given by FCC.

Here is a news item from 48 minutes ago, June 1 2011:
"LightSquared says that it will be done with GPS interference testing by June 15 and will then have to wait for Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to decide its fate. The carrier still expects to launch in 2012 and cover 100 million people with service in the U.S. by the end of that year."

LightSquared has been doing its testing near Las Vegas at half power. (800 watts between midnight and 6 AM at Boulder City for the last 2 weeks). So it is unlikely that any end users were affected, or can even comment on the testing, unless some hobbiests were monitering the signals.....Lightsource is going to use "software" to simulate full power (1.6 killowatts)

My understanding is that this is all terrestial transmission--no satellite. It does not make sense that areas not covered by satellite will be covered by towers. For example at Powell, you can receive Sirrius radio or GPS all thru the lake. But only cell tower transmission when you have line of sight on Najavo mountain.

There apparently was a "deal" with Best Buy to provide service (assuming it goes on line). So there are some big bucks involved if they want to provide service to over 100 million customers!
 
Most likely, Light Squared will wind up restricting it's transmissions to a portion of the spectrum they "own" - e.g. the lower portion that is farther away from the GPS band. They have deals in place to get more adjacent spectrum (farther away from the GPS frequencies) in 2012 and 2013. They are also negotiating with ATT to access some of their LTE network bandwidth. Bottom line, as I said before, I don't think we'll see Light Squared screwing up GPS service.
 
Yup, it took out almost all GPS units up to 2000 feet above ground... Being that the reports poured in from users who were not aware of the testing it is a real eye opener for the FCC and FAA and DOT... I expect the FAA/DOT to now fight this to the death... My personal bet, is that despite the big money and high political connections behind this cash cow, it is DOA because the the damage it will do to the transportation infrastructure, including some Senator's niece getting lost because her car GPS went flooey... The sheer number of installed GPS in new autos alone will be a back breaker...
 
In the article John Deere rep noted that LightSquared's testing "hobbled" its GPS systems more than 20 miles away from the terrestial towers.

Lightreading mobile report:

" Jim Kirkland, vice president and general counsel of Trimble, a founding member of the Coalition to Save Our GPS suggested that the FCC should find new spectrum for the startup instead:

"The test data discussed today [Thursday, June 9 2011] makes clear that there is substantial interference to GPS if LightSquared turns on high-powered terrestrial facilities in the spectrum next door to GPS," Kirkland said in a statement.

"The data confirms what the industry told the FCC before it granted the waiver, and also confirms that there is no viable technical fix," he continued. "It's time for the FCC to stop squandering resources trying to find a solution to an unfixable problem. Instead, it should focus its efforts on finding spectrum that LightSquared can operate in -- where LightSquared won't interfere with GPS."

It is mostly political--involving WiFi for "everyone", as well as "protecting" the $3 billion invested by Harbinger Capital Partners.

Lets hope that this is resolved without damage to the GPS signal. Just going to a different part of the band for LightSquared is probably not adequate. LightSquared has 1525 to 1559 MHz (satellite band, but allowed to broadcast from terrestial towers at 1500 watts). GPS uses 1555 to 1559 MHz (30 watts from about 11,000 miles in space). So you have a factor of spectrum overlap, but also a huge magnitude of difference in signal strength. My guess is that the signal strength is overiding the sensivity of the front end of the very sensitive GPS receiver.
 
I responded to a Boat US call to action. It seems that the FCC is taking public input for 90 days I think. Boat US has a great system of getting the message out to your state's elected politicians. Might be worth sending them your thoughts. The first part is Boat US's form letter. More letters can't hurt. Go to Boat US's website.

As you consider the conditional approval for LightSquared, I write to ask
you to preserve the integrity of the nation's GPS system.

Last year, the federal government shut down the Loran navigation system,
making recreational mariners solely reliant on GPS for all electronic
navigation needs. Like so many other GPS users around the country, GPS is
now integrated into our daily outings, and we look to the FCC to protect
the integrity of the GPS signal.
After shutting down the Loran system most every boater in the nation
switched over to GPS and now you stand to jeoparidize the integrity of the
GPS system we all depend on if this isn't carefully studied. That enthanol
crap was approved has caused the boating community a boat load of issues.
Lets not put another whole industry in the toliet during hard economic
times such as we are currently facing. If there is a shadow of doubt that
this Lightsquared will interfere with GPS signals you must vote no for the
common good of the people.

Sincerely,

D.D.
 
A reply from my state senator about my concerns over GPS signal problems

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting me about LightSquared. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you may know, on January 26, 2011, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) granted LightSquared a waiver to build a nationwide broadband network. Since then, several organizations have expressed concerns regarding the potential of LightSquared's proposed network to interfere with neighboring Global Positioning System (GPS) signals. LightSquared recently announced that it would move its proposed network to a new spectrum block so that its system would not interfere with GPS signals. The FCC is currently working with LightSquared and the concerned parties to resolve any potential problems. Please be assured that I will keep your thoughts in mind as work continues on this issue.

Thank you again for your correspondence. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of assistance.

Sincerely,



Pat Toomey
U.S. Senator, Pennsylvania
 
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