ETEC Cold Water Performance

Tom-

The plug alignment with the gap toward the injector nozzle in called "indexing" and requires marking the plugs with a felt pen so that you can tell where the plug gap is in relation to the fuel nozzle once they are threaded into the cylinder heads. Apparently the threading tap that creates the threads on the plug bores cannot make all of them exactly the same, so they are at random, and so are the plug threads, and one has to substitute plugs until the correct alignment is made. You're certainly right about three cylinders having less opportunities for making matches with the plugs you buy then when six choices are available. Might need a friend with the same plug requirement to trade mismatches with.

Running your etech in extremely cold water and air at idle speeds for long periods has got to be the extreme test for outboards which are prone to problems already because they circulate raw cool water through their cooling jackets and therefore have lower powerhead temperatures in general, which leads to carbon build up especially when run for long periods at idle speeds.

The thermostats are supposed to control minimum exit temperatures to maintain reasonable powerhead temperatures for efficient operation and limit carbon build up, but there are still a lot of problems in this area. One fix used sometimes is to use a higher temperature thermostat, but with your warranty and with the etech factory involved, I'd follow their advice to the letter until the problem is resolved, of course, to keep the onus of responsibility on them and the warranty intact.

What they really need to do, in my opinion, is to develop a re-circulating cooling system to supply the already heated water back down to the water pump and achieve higher and more uniform water temperatures, using the thermostat as a dump valve into the exhaust passages once the more efficient and cleaner operating temperatures are achieved and maintained.

Apparently, however, the problem in its more extreme form is not found often enough to justify the added expense of design changes that would be incurred in their incorporation. Might be a fertile field for someone to develop an after market kit to do just that, but warranty issues would probably be the kiss of death to such a device, at least until engines were beyond the warranty time period.

One other thought would be to be sure your engine is not being excessively carboned up in your operating pattern, and to ask the factory techs if the liberal use of Evinrude's version of Techron / Ringfree (Yammi speak) would be advised. Fun talking with you! Joe.



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Joe,

Thanks for the excellent explanation on the plugs. You would think BRP would put the plug alignment in the owners manual and come up with a way to index plugs on the shelf so you could buy the ones you needed if it was critical.

After the dealer replaced the thermostat in late September, the engine ran noticeably better and more efficiently, however oil consumption was still higher than it should be. Part of the reason is I encountered my no oil alarm due to poor XD100 oil flow at cool temperatures. Once that alarm is set, BRP indicated it will always send more oil to the engine until it is cleared. I am pretty sure that was cleared when the oil tank was replaced and the dealer at BRP's recommendation filled it with SkiDoo XPS oil. The no oil alarm has not recurred even though I encountered some 20F temperatures and water temps in the low 40's. However, the engine didn't seem to be heating up properly, fuel economy trailed off by 20%, and oil consumption increased. I think the oil consumption and temperature are different problems even though a cool engine will consume more oil, it won't consume that much more.

Thanks again for all the info. I'll have to refer back to this in March, to be sure I remember what to do.
 
Sorry for the less then technical explanation but I knew it would prompt one from the great people here. This problem came up when I took mine into the local Evinrude dealer in Everett that is factory trained on E-Tec (Bayside Marine). He only had 6 plugs at the time and none of his would line up, good thing I don't gamble, :lol: . I guess another good suggestion would be make sure they have plenty of those QC12PEP plugs before you take the boat in.
 
Indexing spark plugs:

While it's true there is only one way the plugs can go in, the fact is they do not have to be "spot on" accurate. The only purpose is to ensure that the electrode does not "block" the fuel charge from entering between the "GAP" of the plug. In short, you want to make a mark on the plug inline with the electrode. After you tighten the plug to 15 ft lbs you want the mark to line up "AWAY" from the injector. There is a 90 degree tolerance for this. You can be up to 90 degrees away from (directly across from the injector) and still be fine. If you are not within that tolerance, then you retorque the plug to 30ft lbs and recheck it.

Then and only then... If the plug doesn't line up in that tolerance, then you should try the plug in another cylinder. My experience is this... 95% of all the plugs will make it.
 
Great info all around! And fun too! That's what this forum is all about, along with the friendship and group support!

Passing thought: It really helps to have a MANUFACTURER'S* Shop Manual for any engine you have. It will give you a much better explanation of how things work and how to do even routine procedures much better than the Owners Manual.

Another big PLUS here is that you will find out the proper names or terminology for all the parts and systems on the engine so that when you talk to your Dealer / Mechanic and / or Technical Rep from the Manufacturer you'll be using the same language and have better pictures both in your head and in the book to refer to.

Nothing helps solve problems like like good communication. Joe.

*Generally, the MANUFACTURER'S SHOP MANUAL is much more detailed, has much more exact and detailed photos and diagrams, and is written for very specific engine or group of engines, as compared with an aftermarket imitation (when they're even available). Same as in automobiles, etc.
 
Hi - I just picked up on this thread. I ran a 90hp E-Tec this summer on my 22 ft cruiser. The last three time out - air temp around 50 deg, 45 deg and 40 deg, the "out of oil" light came on right away. It cleared after restarting the engine a couple of times. It happened right away with the engine still cold. This sounds like a fairly common problem. I would say my oil consumption is close to Tom's. Also, I still have a mild, sometimes moderate burned oil smell with mine. I am well over the break in period. I'll have to bring it in to run a computer check on it this winter. The winterizing shut down did go well and was pretty handy. My only other complaint is that it will not troll down below 3mph. Matt
 
I got the chance to talk with a couple of factory representatives from BRP that were in town today. They had gone over the details of my engine performance with the dealer. From that discussion there seems to be two issues:

XD-100 oil causes sensor problems when air tempertures drop into the 40s resulting in the no oil alarm being set. This is supposed to have been corrected in software released in October but I don't think this has been extensively tested.

With the current thermostats, the engine will not reach the proper operating temperature in cold water (below about 50 to 55 degrees). There are no optional thermostats at this point.

Working together these two problems cause extraordinary oil consumption. Once the no oil alarm is set, the EMM will always inject extra oil until the alarm code set in the EMM is cleared using a PDA or notebook. The cool operating temperature is interpreted by the EMM as a cold engine causing it to also inject extra oil until the engine warms up.

This problem is cropping up in the northern US and Canada so we are not alone. BRP seemed intent on solving it, they just didn't know how.
 
tpbrady":1qznk0t6 said:
I got the chance to talk with a couple of factory representatives from BRP that were in town today. They had gone over the details of my engine performance with the dealer. From that discussion there seems to be two issues:

XD-100 oil causes sensor problems when air tempertures drop into the 40s resulting in the no oil alarm being set. This is supposed to have been corrected in software released in October but I don't think this has been extensively tested.

With the current thermostats, the engine will not reach the proper operating temperature in cold water (below about 50 to 55 degrees). There are no optional thermostats at this point.

Working together these two problems cause extraordinary oil consumption. Once the no oil alarm is set, the EMM will always inject extra oil until the alarm code set in the EMM is cleared using a PDA or notebook. The cool operating temperature is interpreted by the EMM as a cold engine causing it to also inject extra oil until the engine warms up.

This problem is cropping up in the northern US and Canada so we are not alone. BRP seemed intent on solving it, they just didn't know how.

Tom-
It sounds like we are having the same problems in cold water and I am in SOUTH CAROLINA!! My E-tec 90 has been doing the same as yours. Last winter, I got the no oil alarm on a cold day using XD-100 and it resulted in a blown powerhead. Then I got the alarm again one day and had very heavy oil use thereafter. My mechanic and the BRP techs could not give me a reason for this. This was 1/2005 so your situation was not documented yet. I got my mechanic to change the E-tec back to XD-50 and I had no oil problems for the rest of 2005. I attributed this to changing the engine to run on XD-50, but I now realize that fixing of my oil problem was due to rising outdoor and water temperatures. We have had a real mild winter until now (Feb 2006). With the cold water, here comes my no oil alarm problem again. I just go the engine back from my mechanic who was told to remap the EMM. The first day out, no problems, but on my second day out I got the no oil alarm after my first run that morning. The alarm never came back on that day, but my mechanic called the BRP tech line. They told him that I needed to run XD-100 oil if operating the E-tec undr 40°F to avoid getting the alarms. This did not help you and my engine originally blew a powerhead using the XD-100 so I am sticking with the XD-50 and being extra careful on those cold mornings. We do not get a bunch of them in South Carolina. Below is a portion of a letter I sent to BRP. I have not gotten any response yet.

My name is J.R. Waits and I was given your email by Hanckel Marine in Charleston, SC. I have had many problems with 2005 90 E-tec and was wondering if you could do anything for me? Let me give you some history:

1. I purchased the 2005 E-tec 90 from Hanckel Marine and it was placed on my boat in late October 2004. They registered the engine for me and set it up to run on xd-100 oil.

2. 12/21/04 - E-tec "no oil" alarm goes off so I stop and check the oil. There is plenty of oil in the resivoir and in the oil lines. I continue on for about 8 minutes and the alarm goes off again. I stop at this point and fish where I am. We fish for 4 hours or so without the engine running. I cranked up and ran it to the dock (10minutes) with no alarms so I then ran it for about another 10 minutes to be sure. As I am cruisong about 4200rpm, the engine just dies (powerhead failure) with no alarms. My dealer (Hanckel) is already closed for the holidays so I brought it to Summerville Marine. They said yes it was a powerhead failure. Your engine ran for 29 minutes without oil. It took Summerville Marine 35 days until I got my boat back. They claimed it took this long because Evinrude was extremely slow in getting them the new powerhead. I got my boat back on 1/25/05 and missed 14 charters because of this.

3. 1/26/05 - On the second day back from the shop with a new powerhead, I got another "no oil" alarm. This time I brought the engine back to my original dealer Hanckel Marine. They looked it over for a few days and said that everything was fine. I lost 3 charters while it was in for service.

4. March 2005 - I realize that my E-tec is drinking way too much XD-100 oil. I think it used over a gallon in less than 20hrs of use so I took the engine back to Hanckel and asked them to switch it to the XD-50 oil. They did so and I calulated the oil use with the XD-50 oil and it was perfect.

5. 7/21/05 - I go to put the boat in reverse and I get no movement. I brought the boat to Hanckel and they said that one of the shift cables had popped. They said that it should not have and no explanation why it did. It took several days to get this fixed and I lost 6 charters.

6. 8/29/05 - As I am riding along, the engine all of a sudden loses all power and will not go over idle. I bring the boat back to Hanckel. It takes 45 days before I get my boat back fixed. Most of this time was lost due to the fact that the Evinrude tech line was not giving my mechanic all of the facts. After trying many things, they told him to try replacing the TPI sensor. It worked for about 20 minutes until it dropped back into idle speed. After this, it was back and forth with the tech line for quite some time until finally a service tech was sent out to look at the engine. When the service tech called the same tech line and identified himself, he was told that the manufacturer of the TPI sensors had a bad batch and to try one with a different serial number. The tech line would not tell my dealer this. I believe they were keeping this information from my dealer whcih cost me a lot of time off of the water. Once another TPI sensor was installed, the boat worked for maybe 20 minutes and then the same thing happened again. Hanckel and I were about to replace the engine with another brand when the service department said that BRP would send an engineer. This time three engineers from BRP came to Hanckel and picked up my boat. They took it somewhere(?) away from Hanckel and returned it a few days later saying it was fixed. They claimed that they changed the shift connectors and that fixed the problem. I have a real hard time believing that but that was all the information my dealer could give me. This took 45 days to complete and I lost 22 charters beacuse of it.

7. 1/28/06 - My E-tec once again gave me the "no oil" alarm and put the boat into idle only mode. I brought the boat to Hanckel and was told that the computer needed to be remapped. They did this and returned the boat on 2/4/06. I only lost 2 charters this time.

8. 2/4/06 - Hanckel informed me that I no longer have warranty on the engine. I said that I should still have at least a year and half of warranty. Hanckel researched it and found out that someone at BRP saw my posting on an interent forum trying to figure out what was wrong with my engine. This person then searched for my name on the interent and found out that I was a guide. They then took it upon themselves to change my warranty from a 3yr to a 1yr commercial warranty. I, nor my dealer, were ever contacted about this. We only found out when I picked up the boat from this service. I was on the Mercury Guide Program for over 5years and got several memo-billed OptiMax engines where I was given the full 3year warranty each time. I chose the E-tec over a Mercury this time because of the 3yr warranty and because I was ready to switch dealers. I did not know that BRP only gave one year of warranty to fishing guides. I would not have bought the engine if I knew this. I would think that BRP would want to stand beside the people who are promoting their products. The people at Hanckel were also blown away by this.

9. 2/9/26 - My E-tec once again gave me the "no oil" alarm. This time it only happened once and nothing blew. I called Hanckel to tell them, and I was told that if I was going to use an E-tec engine in temperatures less than 40°, that I had to use the XD-100 oil. This is the same oil that I was using a year ago when I got the same "no oil" alarm and the powerhead blew. I live in South Carolina where it is rarely cold, I can't image that everyone north of me uses XD-100 oil. It also says in my manual that for fishing the XD-50 is the recommended oil. Without a warranty, I am scared to use the XD-100 oil.

I am not happy with the way that I was treated by BRP. My engine has been in the shop for 97 days since I payed for it and the engine has caused me to loose 57 charters. I average over $400 per charter so this has cost me a lot of money. My lawyer friend says to send BRP an invoice for lost wages but I am going to try this first because I want to continue a good releationship with BRP. I am a full time guide who gets as much press as anyone in our industry in South Carolina. I have been featured in most of the major fishing magazines (SportFishing, SaltWater Sportman, In-Fisherman, FlyFishing in Saltwaters, etc) and television shows (Shallow Water Angler, In-Fisherman, Inshore Angler, etc). I also promote my business at trade shows and local events. I would like to make amends with BRP and continue to promote the E-tec, but I can not do this if BRP will not stand behind their product. My boat is the very first boat as go down the dock at the Isle of Palms Marina. I am asked several times every week, "So, how you like your E-tec?" This is always how people strike up conversation with me. I have always told them how great it runs and how quiet it is, but leave out the troubles that I have had. I want to continue to promote your product in a good way, but can not after these circumstances. I would like to ask you to reinstate my warranty for the full 3 years from the time I had the engine mounted on the boat (October 2004). Is there anyone else that I should send this email to? Let's stay on the same team. I look forward to hearing from you.
 
fishcall-

Sorry to butt in, but.......

Horror story of horror stories!

57 charters x $400 each = $22,800!!!

Not all profit, of course, but definitely a major loss.

$22,800 / $9000 (cost of 1 engine) = equivalent to 2.5 times the original engine cost!

Forget the e-tech and send your lawyer after their incompetent engineers, tech reps, and management clowns!

Who needs products and factory service like this!!!

I'd be p_________ beyond civil speech!

Joe.

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Sea Wolf":2iaw92n0 said:
fishcall-

Sorry to butt in, but.......

Horror story of horror stories!

57 charters x $400 each = $22,800!!!

Not all profit, of course, but definitely a major loss.

$22,800 / $9000 (cost of 1 engine) = equivalent to 2.5 times the original engine cost!

Forget the e-tech and send your lawyer after their incompetent engineers, tech reps, and management clowns!

Who needs products and factory service like this!!!

I'd be p_________ beyond civil speech!

Joe.

[/list]

yeah, i am pretty pissed but what can i do? i actually did not loose that much revenue. i just had to borrow boats and jump through many many hoops to keep customers happy. i probably lost 12 paying charters because of the E-tec. I also did not document any of my loses. oh well. if i could start over, i would get the reliable and cheap yamaha 90.
 
WOW....am I the only one having ficht flashbacks here? Get it near perfect and put it out there....and let the public do the field testing.....

Too much money and too competitive of market for me. Guess I am going to just buy that real nice evenrude oil some have talked about and keep my fine runinng 84 modle.

byrdman
 
J.R.

I appreciated the information. I haven't had any issues with the power head, but one thing I did, everytime the no oil alarm came on, was go through the oil system priming routine (winterization) and the alarm went away for the day. I actually corrected the no oil alarm problem by using the Skidoo snow machine equivalent of the XD-100 (called XPS-100). I never got the no oil alarm after I started using it even with air temps in the 20's and water in the 40's. I still have an issue with oil consumption being 2 to 2.5 times what it should be. That is related to the engine operating at too cold a temperature to get out of the "warmup mode". Essentially it seems to always be operating operating cold. BRP is apparently not seeing this in the larger blocks (4 cyl on up). I suspect it has something to do with mass. The mass of the three cylinder probably sheds heat faster than the 4 cylinder, so all things being equal, the 90 doesn't heat up enough to reach the designed operating temperature range. While I have not seen the EMM data, I understand my engine is running about 20 degrees cooler than designed. If you assume a normal operating temperature, the oil alarm will also go away as the engine heat also heats the oil making it flow better.

What's the solution? Only BRP knows. A friend of mine cornered a BRP rep in Anchorage for the boat show last week. He was able to get out of BRP that they are going to fix the cold weather problem. I have a time line in mind, and like Joe said, if they don't meet my timeline, I plan to invoke something in the Uniform Commercial Code known as the warranty of merchantibility for a specific purpose. In other words an outboard motor that won't run correctly or at all in Alaska in the normal range of operating conditions, cannot be sold as an outboard motor.

If they can't fix it, then I will take a 90 Johnson 4 stroke or 115hp ETEC four cylinder in trade and then ask C-Dory for a new placard. That would seem like a fair trade.
 
Now that it's spring, I got the latest software map loaded and will go in the water this weekend. I also got a copy of the engine history report and it was quite revealing. In the 115 operating hours recorded by the EMM on 1.7% of the time was the engine operating between a temperature of 158 to 176 degrees where the thermostat would have been open. 11.6% of the time it was operating between 140 and 158 degrees where the thermostat would have been open only above 150 degrees. 39% of the time the engine was operating in a range of 86 to 104 degrees. 53% of the engine hours were between 3000 and 4500 rpm.

I would conclude from this that the engine was running far below the optimum temperature. Before I pass judgement, I will run the engine with the new software.
 
I had my day on the water and on the positive side, the new software and XD-100 oil solved the no oil alarm. It was 10 degrees this morning and when I launched about 32. No alarms.

On the negative side, oil consumption is still through the roof for an
ETEC (12.5 gals gas and 13.2 oz of oil, the same as last year). The water temperature was in the low to mid 40's and the engine simply couldn't warm up. As a result it consumes a lot oil and more gas than necessary. On top of that it has a noticeable miss between 1800 and 3000 rpm. I started the day with new plugs (indexed) and it seems one is fouled already.

If it's not my engine, then it is a design flaw in northern climates making the engine unsuitable for use in water temperatures below 50 to 55 degrees.
 
This is a funny deal. I run the E-Tec 90 in 40-45 degree water all the time... normal for here, but surface temps are above freezing or this old guy doesn't go out. My oil consumption is just as specified in the book. I don't know what the water temp. is in the E-Tec, but it runs fine for me. No plug fouling and many, many hours on a tank of oil. Fuel consumption as good as any 4-stroke. What gives? Wish I knew.

Dusty
 
It would be interesting to see the difference in the computer read outs between the two motors. Especially looking at the water temp.

Tom, Given that you have never had this thing run correctly I would hit them up for a replacement. You shouldn't be having these problems. I wonder if you have a bad sensor connection that is goofing up the settings on the computer? It would be pretty hard to diagnose something like that (I once spent 40 hours doing that on a Mercedes when I was working as a mechanic), especially if it is intermittent.

Good luck finding the problem!
 
Fact of the matter... Comparing an engine that is running properly is a pefectly viable diagnostic tool. Or... Even better... Get a printout of your own engine when it is running well to use as a "control". Save it in your boat papers, then if you have an issue use this as a comparison.

Tom,

I'll be rigging a couple of 90s in the next week or two. I'll send you a copy, although it may not necessarily be what your engine should read, due to diferences in location, etc... It may help shed a little light.
 
Your engine is running way too cold :tux and it is unusual - I would say its more likely a defective part than design defect.

There's more to the E-TEC cooling system than the water pump and thermostat and I suspect something has been missed. That something would be the pressure relief valve.

Most of the 40-90hp E-TECs I've rigged, worked on, run, etc. run in the 158 - 160 degree range at speeds below approximately 2000 rpm and no less than 145 degrees at speeds above 2000 rpm.

You posted that less than 2% of the time your engine is running in what I know to be the normal temp range for this engine. I would insist your dealers tech check the pressure relief valve (also known as a "blow-off" valve). It could have an improperly installed seat, a ripped diaphragm or maybe a weak spring. Any of those conditions would cause too much water to flow thru the block causing it to run too cold.

The V6's will run the same as you describe when cold, and it stands to reason the smaller ones would behave the same way. I know when operating temps are correct, they will run as expected.

I've got several customers who fish Lake Michigan, Green Bay and other inland lakes where water temps are in the high 30's/low 40's. They're not having the problem you've experienced.

I hope this info helps correct the problem you're having.

-John
 
Thanks John for the explanation of the cooling system. I spend most of working time designing and troubleshooting RF distribution networks, data networks, and VSAT's. What's missing in most technical documents I work with is a theory of operation, in other words, this is how it works. Illustrated parts breakdowns and maintenance procedures, don't tell you how to figure out what's broken in the first place. You have filled in a key piece of the theory. It sounds like the pressure relief valve is designed to open under under the higher pressures generated by increasing temperature and speed through the water. If it's allowing too much water through the block, the thermostat is basically useless.

I spoke with the dealer today, and when the dock gets in the water in Anchorage in about 3 weeks, they are going for an on the water check with computer attached. I've about reached my limit of trying to convince the service people that something is wrong with my engine when the evidence is starting to be overwhelming.
 
I'd also like to see an actual temp reading from the thermostat housing. Just to compare it to the reading the EMM says it's reading.

In other words... Is the engine running at the temp the EMM "thinks" it's running at?
 
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