E20 Fuel

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peterljones

New member
I have read several articles lately which discus the proposed introduction and requirement to use 20% ethanol in gasolene (E20). There are several studies which show the positive effects of this fuel for automobiles, but caution the use in marine environments. Ethanol easily absorbs water and corrodes certain types of fuel tanks and lines. E20 has been shown to have a negative effect on performance.
I wonder if anyone has any information regarding the mandated use in Washington.
In Oregon all gas stations will be required to start pumping this blend by Sept 08.Several legislatures are now considering this. The mandate for marinas is unclear. Anyone with any better information???
Peter
 
I will tell you this. if you have glass tanks it will disolve them slowly and clog your motor is not destroy it. I have read about it with the ski boats and older fishing boats back east. Has cost people a lot of money. One local on another board toke his boat back east to fish with family and had to have the tanks replaced, the motor rebuilt and the tanks where built in( most glass tanks are) so they cut then out and replaces with aluminum. I have not heard of any problems with plastic tanks.
 
Peter-

The present E10 (10% ethanol) mixture has caused all kinds of problems with fuel lines, gaskets, varnish deposit releases, necessitated carburetor rebuilds, fiberglass fuel tanks, water absorption and retention, and so forth for about a decade depending on your state's location and requirements. (Many states started out with MBTE, which is a story in itself!)

The E20 mixture will likely just intensify these problems.

Later model outboards built after the planned introduction of E10, are somewhat more tolerant of this fuel mixture.

Sad fact: It takes more energy than there is in a gallon of gasoline to produce a gallon of ethanol for fuel , growing it from the fields as corn or some other grain and then fermenting and distilling it. (All factors of production considered).

Ethanol is not a good marine fuel since it absorbs water, leads of metal corrosion of fuel components and engine components and blocks, and has less energy per gallon than gasoline (72% as I remember).

But the farmers of the Mid-West want an outlet for their surplus crop potential and have considerable clout in Congress.

So bend over Mr. Boat Owner, looks like another player in the fuel/energy market has got a treat in store for you! :amgry :amgry :amgry :amgry

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I recall reading somewhere that Oregon has made an exception to the E10 E15 or E20 mandate for marine fuel docks. Boats will be allowed to use fuel without alcohol. If would be a good idea to call your favorite fuel docks and ask what gas they are selling. If the attendant doesn't know, get the manager's or owner's phone number and ask them.

I would recommend reading your owners manual for your engine, and then asking your dealer or factory tech rep about any new alcohol fuel. Too low of an energy content in the fuel can wreck an outboard.
 
Too True Joe!

I used to run cheap Arco Regular gas (E10) in my old Sled. This caused all kinds of problems on my Honda kicker's carburetor as the jets would plug up if the motor wasn't run within a 2 week period. After 2 weeks the inside of the carb would look like it had been sitting for several years there was so much aluminum corrosion in the float bowl. The small jets on that old Honda just couldn't handle it. And Stabil did nothing to combat the problem so I just didn't bother with it.

I'm just glad it only took me 15 minutes to rebuild that carburetor :)
 
mwilson":jamebp35 said:
Sooo does anyone know would a fuel water separator be an effective solution? mbw
Click to expand...

A fuel/water separator (like a typical Racor set-up) is essential for the operation of any modern outboard engine, especially a fuel-injected four stroke or a direct-injected two stroke.

However, the separator/filter is not a panacea and does not allow one to ignore the potential problems of gas/alcohol mixtures.

The fuel filter/separator will remove small particles from the fuel mixture with the fine paper/filter element part of the separator/filter. The particulate size can be targeted, with filters coming in 30, 10, and 2 micron size mesh filter elements. (10 is the most commonly used.)

The water separator part of the bowl will allow water droplets in the fuel mixture to fall out to the bottom and be removed via the drain value, but this will not stop all water from going into the engine, as the alcohol will mix with both gasoline and water simultaneously, carrying molecules of water along with it through both halves of the filter/separator and then to the engine.

I wouldn't be without a fuel filter/water separator with any modern outboard, but they're no cure-all to the problems brought on by these mixture of alcohol and water such as E10, E20, E85, or 100% ethanol.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Thanks for all your thoughtful responses. Looks like we have to really look out for this one.
E10 seems to be bad enough, but look out for E20.
a A recent Oregon news letter recommends the following steps:
1. Make sure you know what your fuel retailer is dispensing.
2. Run a non-alcohol fuel stabilizerin your fuel system at all times. Recommended for engines which sit for a long time.
3. The more use the boat gets the less likely the problem.
4. When winterizing keep the tank 95% full and allow for expansion.
5. Install a water separating filter.
6. Keep a stock f filters handy and the means to change them safely.
7. Replace older weather faded plastic fuel tanks with new tanks.
8. Rubber fuel lines older than mid 80s may need to be replaced.
9. Some older carb engines may need special retuning.
For more detailed information see http//www.boatoregon.com/OSMB/NEWS/E10./SHTML
Peter
 
I would agree with almost everything said above. However, I don't think the push for ethanol started with the farmers. (There is a world wide grain shortage, which has been exacerbated by the use of corn for ethanol). The demand for corn ethanol has sent corn prices skyrocketing (almost double in the last couple of years)--and most farmers realize the facts which Joe outlined as to the net energy cost of using corn for ethanol.

We have never had a problem "getting rid" of our corn crops...It is just how much you have to pay. It becomes a vicious cycle. The fertilizer, pesticides and fuel costs increase, and so the corn becomes more expensvie to grow. Corn is not a good crop for ethanol--and adding ethanol is certainly not a good thing for boaters.

Fortunately none of our boats have fiberglass tanks (to my knowlege), so we don't have the problems, but older outboards will have problems.

There are a number of people who feel that storing with the tanks empty is perhaps a better solution than with the tanks full, especially with the ethanol in the fuel. The amount of water contributed to the fuel from atmospheric moisture (humidity) is not as much as some have speculated.
 
Gary Johnson said:
After 2 weeks the inside of the carb would look like it had been sitting for several years there was so much aluminum corrosion in the float bowl.
Click to expand...

Gary, would this aluminum corrosion look like white-ish crystally plaque? that is what I had in my carbs, (3 of six) on a set of twin 40 Yami's. I have been using Stabil, but not the new Marine version, and have been buying automotive fuel (E-10). And it didn't take me 15 min to clean those Carbs :cry but after the mechanics were through the pair purred like a couple of kittens. Me and the wife however, ate beans and rice for the next month :thdown
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Well, I for one won't be jumping on the ethanol bashing wagon just yet. I happen to think it is a great use for corn and, when intentionally mixed on a hot day with solidified water, creates a pleasing mix that actually enhances one's day out fishing. Austin Nichols seems to have it right with their E 50.5 blend. But yes, use your motor regularly to minimize any varnishing build up. C.W.
 
I have just received two bulletins published by Honda regarding the use and concerns of E20 fuels in their engines. I would be happy to email copies on request.
Regards,
Peter
 
hardee":4q4qaig2 said:
Gary Johnson said:
After 2 weeks the inside of the carb would look like it had been sitting for several years there was so much aluminum corrosion in the float bowl.
Click to expand...

Gary, would this aluminum corrosion look like white-ish crystally plaque? that is what I had in my carbs, (3 of six) on a set of twin 40 Yami's. I have been using Stabil, but not the new Marine version, and have been buying automotive fuel (E-10). And it didn't take me 15 min to clean those Carbs :cry but after the mechanics were through the pair purred like a couple of kittens. Me and the wife however, ate beans and rice for the next month :thdown
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Click to expand...

Yup, that is exactly what it looks like.
 
I'm beginning to think that in boats using E-10, E-20, or E-85, one should once a year take a siphon hose down the fuel intake hose (or remove it at the top of the tank if necessary) and siphon out the bottom inch or two of the fuel mixture to remove any phase-separated fuel, water, or any other crud to keep it from cycling through the fuel intake system towards the motor.

Too bad there's not a drain fitting on the bottom of the gas tank like a radiator or a compressor tank.

Same idea might just apply to infrequently used cars, trucks, and motorhomes.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe,
On my tanks (2002- 22 cruiser) the pickup tube was right on the bottom of the tank and would pick up the crud fuel first. I am in the process of installing new fuel tanks since one of my old ones cracked. On the new tanks I can't tell where the fuel pick-up tubes terminate-but I would guess that it would be very near the bottom to avoid too much unusable fuel. I do intend to make the tanks easily removable so that I can totally empty them and clean them out every couple of years.
 
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