Considering new Honda 90 EFI

T

terraplane

New member
Please note the word "considering".....I have a little bit of "surplus" $$ and might consider trading my 2005 Honda 90..carbureted...for a new motor.
Can some of you give me a bit of feedback on the Honda 90 EFI, what i might expect to pay, trade in values, etc.

I am not trying to start the suzuki-honda-yamaha war, or the upgrade to 115...honest...

The current engine is fine,mostly, but since i plan to keep this 22 for a long time it might be propitious to upgrade now when i can.

Terraplane
 
Terraplane,

I guess I would have to ask why you feel that an upgrade is required. I have the same engine on Constant Craving, and although I would like to have the fuel injected version, I have not brought myself to either spend the money or really be able to justify it.

So far, I am inclined to save the money, plus let Honda get a few more years under its belt with the new 90.
 
Thanks for the response...this is why i said "considering"....it is rare that i have some disposable income that is not earmarked...so,that is one reason...and i'm really just eliciting opinions, (like yours) to help me with the decision. The idea of waiting a year or so is one i didn't think of..However, i am not "young" and suddenly the issue of waiting for things is not as important....squeezing the most out of life is...

Thanks again, and any additional thoughts are welcome..

I'm off to SALLY'S SISTER for a couple of hours on the water..it is sunny and about 28F here in Rock Hall, but no skim ice yet...Old Wallas will be workin' today!
 
Terraplane-

I think you'll have to work with a Honda dealer on the price of the upgrade, as I can't imagine that anyone with the new motor would want to trade down unless they've had a bad experience with the new one, in which case you probably wouldn't want that motor.

Marc at Wefing's, or another dealer, would probably be able to give you the most accurate numbers on 1) the trade-in value, 2) the cost of a new motor, 3) how much of a deal could be cut considering the difference, and 4) the labor involved on the switch over.

I'll venture a wild guess, but that's all it is. Your 2005 motor (3 years old, model wise) should be down about 25% or so in value, plus the new motor may be up in cost a about 5% in three years. This yields a differential of somewhere around 30% on a motor that used to cost (using memory here from a few years ago- a little less than $10,000 MSRP, and we know Honda dealers often don't deal as much in discounts as some of the others. Figuring in some dealing/discount/installation/good will and good luck, I'd spin the big wheel of fortune and guess you're going to be in for a cost of $3000 +/- ~ $500 for the overall trade. Please don't me in effigy if I'm wrong or you don't like the figures, I'm just guessing here!

I'm anxious to hear from owners of the new Hondas on how they like the motors. (And especially those that have owned both the new and older carburetor models.)

Good Luck!

Joe. :thup :teeth
 
Joe, thanks for the info.

I have not talked to my original dealer, Cutter. I'd consider them because i really like their mechanic...but one of my friends got a "rough" idea from a friend who works for one of the Delaware dealers...he thought that , with my trade, and some rigging costs, and the inevitable stuff that has to be added or upgraded...he thought my pay out would be about $4,000
It is not that i am "dissatisfied" with my current mode. I have had some starting difficulty in cold weather, but it always starts and seems to run very well.
I have always been leary of the four carburetors, and possible decline over time...but i'm not a mechanic...
So, i'm again using this excellent source (the best) togather information.

Terraplane
 
Terraplane,

That 4 carb setup has been around a long time. I know that there can be issues with them, especially with old fuel, but other than that, I have not heard a serious clamor about them.

Now the bad part... You've got me thinking about an upgrade. Eek!!!

Steve
 
Any of our posts, except for a dealer who could give you a specific "deal" would be best guess. There was a post on the Whaler web site in 2005, which gave the sticker price of the Honda 90 at $9585, and the "dealer price" of $6000, or about 1/3 less! Looking at NADA price of used outboards the 2005 Honda 90 comes in at a low of $5090 and a high or $5810. But looking at Ed's Superstore (whose prices may be slightly unrealistic) shows the high 90 at the E Tec Evinrude at $7800, the Merc 4 stroke $6800, the Yahama 4 stroke at $6500, and the Suzuki 4 stroke at $6000 (no Hondas, and no Honda prices found in any dealers or E bay--which follows with the general Honda dealer restrictions of not advertising best prices). But the Superstore prices are often a year old models, and at times gimicks. Add in shipping, tax and rigging there is a signficant difference, and probably an additional $1500. I think that you would be doing well if you made the swap for $2500.

I faced this same problem. My C Dory 25 has a 2003 130 hp Honda with only 150 hours, and I feel that the boat is underpowered, so I am looking for a "new" engine of 175 to 200 hp....But I will l have to find a dealer who is willing to take the old motor in trade, and sell me a new motor at a reasonable price. My Honda is "worth" $4200 to $5520 (? if I can find someone who wants it). A new engine will run from: $10,000 to $12,000, plus installation--in my case at least $8000 to swap out and get a few more knots. So at this point I'll do with the old...
 
I took a ride on a new 22 with that Honda 90 fuel injected motor...there were four of us aboard....and the boat performed super.... fast out of the hole...and ran well...
I know Roger sold his Honda 40's for allot less than I had guessed.... to buy that Honda 90..... so the trade from twin 40's to a single 90 is allot more than what you all are estimating.... of course they were 40's not 50's but I bet your at least $4000 difference...maybe more.

Saying that..... I too would like to upgrade to the Yamaha 50's.... I like my Yamaha motors.....but dislike the carburetors..... hard starting, cold blooded miserable things.... Fuel Injection is the only way to go..

Joel
SEA3PO
 
To quote from my son who is often ask " When is the best time to fish /hunt with you in Alaska?"
His answer would be " After you are old enough to afford it, and before you are to old to enjoy it!"
We have a pair of Honda 150s on the Amigo II, no cranking at all. Turn the key, one turn of the starter and they are running.
I was once ask, while idling away from a fuel dock, "Hey mister when are you going to start your engines?" Yeah, they are quite too.

Gary
 
Personally, I love fuel injected motors(from the factory.) I think they're great, and I have 3: car, truck, Honda 150. My 63 used to be fuel injected, but.... back to the old carb.

However, carbs also work good. Looking at Sallys Sister, I have a suggestion, which will save you money. Have a competent dealer tune the motor. And then buy a radar/chartplotter. That'll save a couple of thousand, and increase the boats usefulness. We spent a summer on the Chesapeake, and I nailed every shoal, and missed the center of a whole bunch of channels. Knowing exactly where you are probably isn't as useful to you (saw the picture of your old boat,) as it would be to me, but it can't hurt. Furuno has a cheap and good color combo, or go the expensive route and get a Raytheon.

It'll also help when you try foreign waters, such as the ICW or even points north. A beautiful capability of a C-Dory.

Boris
 
Tom, you know I had '94 Honda carbureted 45's on Captain's Choice (1994 CD22 Cruiser). Never too much problem but did rebuild them once and had water problems. I've got EFI Suzuki 115's (2001) on Captain's Cat (2006 TC255) with less than 200 hours on them and couldn't be more pleased. Start cold every time, have NEVER pumped the fuel bulbs and not one problem this season.

See you in June!

Charlie
 
Boris: The mechanic at Cutters seems to me to be very good...at least my experience with him has been good. The engine is tuned well, and serviced every 100 hours. Re: Chartplotter: have one..Garmin...no radar cause i rarely go out when it is needed and I don't like the idea of "once it's on the boat, it's on every time".....Re; running aground...I've been boating on the Bay for 34 years...at least ten or twelve run agrounds...even the watermen doit...we have a forgiving bottom, thank goodness...

Charlie: thanks for the advice...and info. Next week or so i'm drivng up to Delaware to talk to the dealer who says he can "give me a deal" on a new Honda 90 EFI, then i'll post the info...

Today it is 27F right now at 4pm or so..Went down to the boat, put some choke on her, started right up...

Terraplane
 
Have heard some very good things about the new Honda 90...and some this is the first year out items from some folks rigging them.

Some type of computer reset gig early on, but that could have by now been worked out.

One rigger I know and truly respect his input on is Les at EQ, and he indicated for those of us who may have made it thru the 60s-70s with some of our hearing, that Honda my have went a bit far as to make them light weight, at the exspense of the noise level once under some solid RPM ranges....above idle, in the working ranges of 3500 or there abouts. I think he and Dusty were trying a pair on a bit larger/heavier boat than the CD22 and ended up just jumping to the Honda 135s...but not 100% sure on this.

I agree with others that if today I still had my TC24, with her "older" 90s with the carbs, a bit of fuel additives now and then, run her good, run her long. Many, many hours to yet be enjoyed...and who knows what the next few years of technology may put on the market.

Spend that money on fuel using Sally's Sister....and enjoying some road trips south maybe??? See you in Jun08 up in your corner of our Nation.

Byrdman
 
Terraplane -The January,2007, edition of Trailer Boats has two (2) articles on the new Honda 90. One compares the Honda and Yamaha 90s performance on the same hull. The other article has a comprehensive analysis of the Honda 90 on several different hulls. These articles include miles per gallon at various RPM settings. Interestingly, the new Honda 90 has less displacement than the previous model, but it is "tweaked" differently to enhance performance. I had a flo scan for several years on a 22 CD measuring the old HOnda 90 fuel consumption. I quit using the flo scan once I found where the efficiency range was - what I call the sweet spot at 4,000 to 4,200 rpm and 4 to 4.5 miles p/gal. At 1,000 rpm it was around 10 miles p/gal. I learned to avoid the 1,500 to 3,000 rpm range (sustained) because the miles p/gallon really dropped off then. I predict the hoopla about the new Honda 90 will convince some owners to trade up. No doubt about how the efi starts, but if a person ran the old Honda 90 with good fuel and frequently, like every other day or so, I believe the carb problems I experienced would be minimal. I don't believe the average CD owner would ever wear out the old Honda 90. But that is just my opinion. Read somewhere where the navy using Honda 40s for tenders were getting 30,000 hours on some motors with minimal problems, but they were run daily. Yellowstone
 
As Dogon Dory said I have one of the new BF90 with about 100 hours on it now. It starts with the flick of the key and is smooth and quiet. The low end torque is definitely noticeable. The only thing I am having trouble with is matching a prop to way I load and run my boat. I could go on for a couple of paragraphs on this but lets just say I have settled for now on a 3 or 4 blade 15P prop. The experimentation continues next summer.
 
I have a CD22 and did almost exactly what you are talking about. I replaced a 2004 Honda 75 with a new 90. As I recall I got $5000 trade and paid $4500. I have been delighted with the new engine and never had second thoughts. The new 90 has gotten as much as 6.5mpg compared to 4.5 for the 75, it weighs less and has lots more power.

It starts beautifully and runs perfectly. It is a very big improvement over the carburetted models.

Dave
 
It is impressive on an engineering scale , has more apparent and useful power than any other Honda size for size,and does not have Hondas notoriously weak hole shot . Its too bad for us as a dealer that Honda relegates their marine division to an afterthought in the scheme of their business . If they had a complete modern lineup of engines we would have them all . But at this point they mix dinosaurs in with their new stuff instead of modernizing the whole lineup . I still sell one or two [EFI ONLY!!!!] here and there, and we do alot of service. But as an outboard motor company ,they have been technologically trounced by Yamaha and Suzuki . With that said , there customer service ethic is top notch .
There is no way taking a properly running carb 90 off a boat and replacing it with an EFI 90 motor will save you any $$$$ at the end of the day . You just have to baby the old 90 [regular starts,fuel additive] and it will run pert near forever. Or spend and switch for the weight,starting and power advantage.
My 2 scents
Marc
 
I continue to be amazed by this site....honestly, C Dory should advertise the C Brats as a part of their sales pitch for buyers!

I appreciate all the advice: personal, technological, pro/con, etc...It really helps me to decide. I am going to look at what is possible for a deal, but I am leaning now toward holding on, and saving the money for gas as Byrdman says. Marc (Welfings) gave cogent advice and makes sense.

Thanks to all..I'll let you know what i do...

Terraplane.

PS. Following some earlier advice, i have now found that if i don't use the automatic choke which is activated by lifting the lever at the steering station until it clicks, etc....but if i just pull the choke out on the engine...it starts on the first or second try and runs...i play with the gas lever for about 30 seconds and then shut down the choke, and off i go.
 
T-Brady Tom in AK: You have had both on your boat now. I realize you more than likely spend a lot of time with the cabin door closed, but do you realize much sound level difference in the carb vs. efi new motor? With the door open and up and running. They do feel much better coming out of the hole for sure.

Sound is important on our pilot house boats when running at speeds with the cabin door open.... particularly as we experience on a full day cruise making our ways thru America. We do get some of that "cathedral" effect for sure. More is not good on motor noises.

On the factory using this site in their advertisement....well... many things have been said of the QC issues and I think they may still need a little re-group time prior to jumping back out front with this site. The good thing is we do often share the good, the bad, and the ugly about our boats. That is the only way we learn from each other on improvements, and the factory should be able to get viable feedback on all aspects of the boat from the factory, to the dealerships, to the end users who drop the big bucks for these boats. Should hear some interesting updates from the factory Saturday night. Looking forward to it.

Byrdman
 
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