Cold Water

D

doc

New member
I just got a call from a friend and fellow veterinarian who took an unanticipated swim in Wrangell Harbor. He was on his boat at the dock and slipped off into the water. As he tells it, he plunged in pretty deep and could not tell up from down. He saw the direction of the bubbles and followed them up. He said he actually went in pretty deep, having a four foot high freeboard and going in head first. There was no one else around to hear his calls for help and he was unable to climb onto the dock. He was able to tie his hands to a cleat so as he says "at least his wife would know what happened". Apparently someone found him tethered there before he died and he woke up in the hospital. His core temp went down to 91F. Three days later, he is pretty exhausted yet, but recovering. Looks like he is a lucky man. Often people suck in a bunch of water due to a shock reflex.

Good time to talk about PFDs. I started wearing mine on the dock when its pretty lonely about or extra hazardous. In the winter when the docks are icy or even in the summer when I am out late at night getting ready for a trip or whatever, anything can happen and it always happens fast. Given the condition of some of our docks around here, it wouldn't be a bad idea to always wear one.
 
Also a good time to talk about marinas having deployable ladders that can be reached by someone in the water so they can climb out if they do fall in.

Your friend was lucky, but even with a PFD, he would have only lasted a short while in water that cold, and might still not be able to get out of the water without a ladder that extends a number of rungs into the water.
 
Canada now requires an overboard recovery device mounted on the boat if the gunnel (or swim step) is more than 18" above the water. A ladder (metal or rope) that can be pulled down by a swimmer with several steps underwater is a good idea.

At the dock, a rope with loops tied in can be attached and coiled up on the dock as a temporary rescue ladder. Even a rope that makes a single loop with the loop 2 to 3 ft underwater will work.

Something to get your feet on that puts your waist at dock level could allow you to flop your upper body onto the dock and get yourself out of the water.
 
With my two little boys, I have them wear a PFD anytime they are out of the berth - even in the cabin. The Mrs and I try to wear them all the time as role models, but I have to admit that there are times at dock that I don't wear it.

When I was growing up, you never thought about wearing a helmut when riding a bike. Now it's rare in my neck of the woods to see anyone (kid or adult) riding a bike without a helmut. Some helmuts are even really cool looking.

PFDs, when they only came in Big, Ugly Orange weren't cool, but now the inflatibles and even the kayak vests are quite comfortable...like a light jacket.

I do make an effort to wear mine more often.

Thank you doc for sharing this story. I hope your friend and colleague recovers quickly.

-Sarge
 
The past couple years i have thought about buying a , Mustang Immersion Suit from Defenders Item#550200,there are about $265. I have a Mustang Floater Jacket but that wouldn't do me much good if i was in the water for an hour or more , i would freeze in the waters around here. If i was even a mile or more off-shore and my boat were to sink having an immersion suit would save your life.It may seem like over kill but if you frequently boat off-shore it something to consider. Tug
 
I've been in the water of the Wrangel Narrows. Just once. It was not on purpose. I was 30 years younger and yanked myself back onto the dock. There were other people around, so even if I hadn't been able to get myself out I was probably going to be OK. But it scared the Hell out of me, at that. I have a lot less confidence in my strength now, and even then if the dock had been 3 feet high instead of 2 . . .

To this day, I do pull-ups and when I'm doing them I imagine trying to get up onto a boat or dock. And I always wear my PFD on my boat. Always. Cold water can take your strength away so fast that without a PFD you will drown because you can't move - long before you would expire from hypothermia if you could just stay afloat. It may be literally minutes versus hours. A guy drowned after falling off the float in front of my sister's house in Petersburg because he could not pull himself out, or even hang onto the dock, for the couple of minutes it took for help to come. His fall was witnessed. His yells were heard. People started running from just a couple hundred yards away. He was gone by the time they got to the float. Yes, it was the same dock.

Be safe.
 
Sarge, in Miss all children must have a lifejacket on when in the boat even if it is tied to a dock. Water is fun, but dangerous. One of the greatest gifts we can give to our children (grandchildren) is to teach them how to swim, although the greatest of all gifts is the way to salvation.

Our water is never as cold as AK and I can't imagine what happens when you fall into that cold water.
 
Even as I had just finished my original post this afternoon, while driving back to my office, I thought about the absurdity of it. In reality, Matt is 100% correct; the PFD while keeping one afloat would not have let the submergee out of the water any easier. It is amazing to think that in cold waters, we'd might as well be on a space ship, regarding our inability to venture off our ships into the most adjacent environ. Without ladders to get out of the water and up onto the dock we are just as helpless, PFD or not. And, what a simple yet inexpensive necessity at the time of need, a short ladder could be. With that, I and all my crew are upgrading to wearing gumby suits any time we are near the water. As absurd as that sounds, it is apparently the next best alternative to a simple little ladder. If they are required equipment now on Canadian boats, why would they not be standard equipment on docks?

In addition to all this, I thought back a little. I know of no first hand aquaintances in the past 20 years who died in car wrecks but can name at least three who experienced cold water near drownings, and one dead, all of course young men in good physical condition and all unexpectedly and all sober. Please be careful.
 
doc":3o1zf3bo said:
. . . the PFD while keeping one afloat would not have let the submergee out of the water any easier. . . .
Click to expand...

It is indeed another of those cruel ironic trade-offs. In fact, at some point the opposite is true. Once you get your upper body mostly out of the water the PFD is no longer providing any flotation. Instead it is getting in the way as you try to drag yourself onto a boat or dock. Still, I will not be caught without mine on if I can help it. It's all a matter of odds.

I've known commercial fishermen in Alaska whose attitude is they'd rather wear a sidearm that a PFD - figuring if they go into that cold water, the PFD is going to prolong the agony. They'd rather just get it over with. Not me, man. I'd rather increase my odds of surviving, and keep my options open a little longer.

I'm reasonable confident, absent serious injury going into the water, I could get back into my boat (unless it's still in gear and I was foolishly on the deck while alone in the boat . . .) over the transom with the aid of my Permatrims and engine tilt. The dock situation is another matter, and a lot more dangerous than most folks think.
 
We do a lot of work in early spring and late fall and are required to wear at least Mustang MS2075 or MS2175 anti-exposure coveralls. But these are difficult to actively work in, and if you fall in, you still get wet.
Several years ago I switched to Kokatat Super Nova paddling suits for my crew and a Gore-Tex suit for me. They are very comfortable, easy to work in, and keep you dry if you fall in - vastly increasing your survival time. A friend of mine says it is "like wearing your own boat." Of course, we wear PFDs over the top too.
http://www.kokatat.com/product_detail.asp?code=SNO
If you care for them well, they will last a long time, and Kokatat has pressure tested and patched a few pinhole leaks in mine at no charge.
We sometimes wear clothes over the top if we are in abrasive environments (e.g. kneeling on concrete or rock breakwaters).
They are not inexpensive, but neither is your life (most of us are also rafters and kayakers so they get used for that too).
We generally follow a 50/50 rule -
air and water below 50 - drysuit
air above 50 - drysuit or MS2075/MS2175
air and water above 50 - float coat or PFD
The paddling suits have a neoprene neck which allows them to be worn by different people with different neck sizes, but they may leak a little. If you are buying one for a single person, get a latex neck to be completely dry. Trim it so it is comfortable to wear all day.
 
Good points! The most current temp I could find for Wrangell water is 36 degrees (it could be a bit warmer in the harbor). At that temperature you have only 15 to 30 minutes before you become unconscious, assuming that you survive the immediate shock of immersion into cold water (more about that later). Survival time in mid 30 degree water is 30 to 90 minutes, and most folks cannot swim 100 feet in this temperature because of the rapid onset of muscle weakness, even before the core temperature falls.

The other problem is loss of upper body strength (as well as lower) to even get out on a ladder after any degree of muscle weakness begins (measured in minutes).

Hypothermia is an extremely serious problem--and thanks for bringing it back to our attention. I'll make some further comments later in the day when I have more time.
 
Cold water submergence is an interesting topic and it has a psychological component which can be very important in terms of survival. People have a tendency to panic in cold water and thereby waste precious energy. Take a look at the information available on survival times in cold water (as Bob just provided above). Survivability can be quite long but you have to know, or learn, how to control yourself which isn’t easy. In my opinion, one of the best things you can do is to swim in cold water when the opportunity arises. Condition yourself to the experience so that when an unplanned event occurs you are better prepared to handle it. I know this concept will be unthinkable for some people, and imagine this; an added benefit is to experience the pleasures associated with cold water immersion (especially when you get out!).
 
Just a footnote about the Immersion suit that i mentioned previously:

i am not sure it would be practical for a C-Dory,( no-where to hang it ) ideally you would want the suit hanging somewhere, within easy reach to be able to quickly suit-up in the case of an emergency. Tug
 
I have a Mustang Integrity jacket and bib overalls. Both provide flotation and a good deal of insulation. While they are definitely not water tight, the water that does get in doesn't exchange very quickly with the outside environment. The combination has a "Clo value" of about 0.37. This will give me somewhere around 4 hours in the typical water temperatures in the Puget Sound (40-55F). If you keep a waterproof hand held VHF clipped to it or in the pocket (or better yet a Epirb/PLB), that should be sufficient for most boaters who are rarely more than a hour or two away from a coast guard station. The gumby suits are fairly impractical for doing much in them. The jacket/bib combination provides good comfort and mobility. Fishing with it on is no problem.

The real problem with any of these suits (IMHO) is when the air temperature gets above about 55F. All of them are well insulated and (of course) get quite warm when the air around you isn't cold. Hence there's some practical limitations to what you can wear full time and still enjoy the boat. For me, the bib/pants combo is ideal since I can take off the coat in warmer weather and replace it with self inflating pfd. Then I can comfortably operate in temps up to about 68F. After that, I have to shed the bibs.

The problem (of course) is the water temp is almost always below the air temp and if I fall in on a warm day, I'm not going to be well insulated. On the other hand, as long as the jacket and bibs are readily accessible, they don't take long to don so they are still very useful in emergency situations that don't involve a quick fall into the water. Unfortunately, most falls in are unexpected and often happen in calm water. Still, you won't see me in a gumby suit or my bib/jacket combination on a warm day - it's tradeoff between heatstroke while on board (the common and intended place for me) and hypothermia while in the water (the uncommon and unintended location). However, when I have to do something that is higher risk (like perhaps going foward along the side in rough weather to pull in a line etc), then I'll don the gear for a brief period of time to do so.

To me, I think one of the key issues is to be very deliberate about what one does on the boat to reduce the risk of falling out. For example
* I set my fenders up so they can all be easily deployed/stowed from the comfort of the cockpit without leaning over or going forward.
* I set up my down riggers up with long lines on the releases and I use a stick with a hook to retrieve them - I don't lean over to get to them.
* In water that is at anything but flat, no-one is allowed to relieve themselves over the side, they have to use the porta-potty (on the new boat the enclosed head).
* If someone is sea sick, they have to puke in a bucket in the cockpit rather than over the rail.
* My bow line terminates in the cockpit - I don't need to go forward to get it.
etc. etc.

My point is that there's many things one can do to significantly reduce the risk of unexpectedly exiting the boat and landing in the water and those things are probable as important as having gear on to prevent hypothermia.
 
Good thread. I've been in our PNW waters in a dry suit as part of USCG Auxiliary training. After about ten minutes I was fine but I was not wearing gloves (part of an experiment) and my hands became so cold I could not grip very well; that would make climbing a ladder or holding onto a motor while pushing the tilt control pretty hard. So, the moral is, put (preferably neoprene) gloves in the pockets of your float coat/drysuit and you will have a better shot at getting out of the water.
 
rogerbum":286ulscg said:
I have a Mustang Integrity jacket and bib overalls. Both provide flotation and a good deal of insulation. While they are definitely not water tight, the water that does get in doesn't exchange very quickly with the outside environment. The combination has a "Clo value" of about 0.37. This will give me somewhere around 4 hours in the typical water temperatures in the Puget Sound (40-55F). If you keep a waterproof hand held VHF clipped to it or in the pocket (or better yet a Epirb/PLB), that should be sufficient for most boaters who are rarely more than a hour or two away from a coast guard station. The gumby suits are fairly impractical for doing much in them. The jacket/bib combination provides good comfort and mobility. Fishing with it on is no problem.

The real problem with any of these suits (IMHO) is when the air temperature gets above about 55F. All of them are well insulated and (of course) get quite warm when the air around you isn't cold. Hence there's some practical limitations to what you can wear full time and still enjoy the boat. For me, the bib/pants combo is ideal since I can take off the coat in warmer weather and replace it with self inflating pfd. Then I can comfortably operate in temps up to about 68F. After that, I have to shed the bibs.

The problem (of course) is the water temp is almost always below the air temp and if I fall in on a warm day, I'm not going to be well insulated. On the other hand, as long as the jacket and bibs are readily accessible, they don't take long to don so they are still very useful in emergency situations that don't involve a quick fall into the water. Unfortunately, most falls in are unexpected and often happen in calm water. Still, you won't see me in a gumby suit or my bib/jacket combination on a warm day - it's tradeoff between heatstroke while on board (the common and intended place for me) and hypothermia while in the water (the uncommon and unintended location). However, when I have to do something that is higher risk (like perhaps going foward along the side in rough weather to pull in a line etc), then I'll don the gear for a brief period of time to do so.

To me, I think one of the key issues is to be very deliberate about what one does on the boat to reduce the risk of falling out. For example
* I set my fenders up so they can all be easily deployed/stowed from the comfort of the cockpit without leaning over or going forward.
* I set up my down riggers up with long lines on the releases and I use a stick with a hook to retrieve them - I don't lean over to get to them.
* In water that is at anything but flat, no-one is allowed to relieve themselves over the side, they have to use the porta-potty (on the new boat the enclosed head).
* If someone is sea sick, they have to puke in a bucket in the cockpit rather than over the rail.
* My bow line terminates in the cockpit - I don't need to go forward to get it.
etc. etc.

My point is that there's many things one can do to significantly reduce the risk of unexpectedly exiting the boat and landing in the water and those things are probable as important as having gear on to prevent hypothermia.
Click to expand...

Roger, in my opinion very good practical advise post :thup

Both Jo-Lee and I have like you the Mustang jacket and bibs and have had them since 2001 when exploring rivers and lakes in British Columbia, Yukon and the Northwest Territories in a 12.5 foot RIB. Also works great for the CD22. Like you said easy to don and comfortable in the temp ranges you mentioned. Most including me won't wear whats not comfortable. We also had two Gumby suits that we have never brought with us. Just plain impractical in either the RIB or CD 22.

We don't wear our pfd all the time around the docks or boat and won't in the future. I too am an odd's person and am fine with the odd's in this case, but do wear the pfd or Mustang jacket and sometimes bibs when in a known more dangerous situation or when going forward on the bow to mess with the anchor or just along the outer side of the cockpit whether on the go, at anchor or at the dock and think others who like me don't care to wear them all the time should for sure wear them during the times I mentioned.

Here's a couple photos of Jo-Lee and me in 2001. Me in just Mustang bibs on Atlin Lake over 40 miles from the town of Atlin repairing a leak in the RIB and Jo-Lee in bibs and jacket during our stop in Haines, Alaska during our trip there and back from Skagway.
scan0008.sized.jpg
scan0009.sized.jpg

Jay
 
Why wear the life jacket? First, it will help prevent the first dangerous phase of cold water shock. It should keep the head above water, and avoid aspiration of water (leading to drowning, as part of the cold water shock-this includes a gasp reflex which aspirates water into the lungs, as well as the affect of cold water ceasing or markedly decreasing respiration). Some people will hyperventiallate, with shallow respiration (could lead to unconsiousness), others will be unable to hold their breath for more than a few seconds--again a reflex due to the cold water. Also if you have a good fitting vest type of type III PFD, it will also give you some cold protection of the torso. This does not totally remove the danger of high blood pressure (high peripheral vascular resistance due to vaso constriction)--but does help some. Also a lot of cold is lost thru the head (highly vascular scalp), and a head gear which helps to revent heat loss will also aid in this phase. The increased heart rate and arrythmias, as part of the reflex can also be reduced by decreasing the sudden cold reflex. All of these can lead to a heart attack and sudden death.

I have a personally built vest type of jacket, which has foam all around the torso, down over the upper abdomen and up into the collar. I have used it for many years--it is not stamped coast guard approved, but has over 22 lbs of floatation and gives me excellent rib protection and conservation of body temperature. If I have been in very cold weather I have worn it with an 1/8" neoprene wet suit vest, with hood--which helps further with the head and neck protection. A beaver tail (groin flap) would also greatly increase survival (as many float coats have).

I wonder if any of us are predisposed to develope the physiological response (if we had the time and inclination) to resist cold water effects by acclimation? I have jumped into icey water after a sauna etc when younger---but I would be reluctant to go into ice water unless under very controlled circumstances.

I certainly agree with the comments about survival suits--but one has to look carefully at both the type of insullation, water intrusion protection and full body protection (including hands and feet) as noted by several posters. The reality is that most of us will probably not wear such gear on the docks, unless we were working there. Yes, you would if fishing etc.

The mention was made of getting part of the body out of the water--this actually is of great benefit. Water conducts heat away from the body at almost 30x the amount as air does. So just getting your upper body out of the water would markedly increse survival.

The H.E.L.P. (heat escape llessening posture) position: This minimizes any activity, with hugging your arms against your sides and across your chest, with legs tight together and up toward your chest as much as possible-and must be used with a good floatation device. This position decreases your body surface exposed to the coldest water outside of the area of your "Hug".

Some tables from Minnesota sea grant site on hypothermia:

Water Temperature Expected Time Before Exhaustion and survival

(°F)temp Time before exhaustion Time or survival

32.5° ----- < 15 minutes --------------- 45 minutes
32.5–40----- 15 – 30 minutes ------------- 30 – 90 minutes
40–50°------ 30 – 60 minutes -------------- 1 – 3 hours
50–60° ----- 1 – 2 hours -------------------- 1 – 6 hours
60–70° ---- 2 – 7 hours --------------------- 2 – 40 hours
70–80° ----- 3 – 12 hours ------------------- 3 hours – indefinite
> 80° ---- Indefinite ------------------------ Indefinite

Situation & Equipment Predicted Survival Time in 50° F Water

Without flotation device
Drown proofing 1.5 hours
Treading Water 2 hours
With personal flotation device (e.g. vest or collar-type PFD)
Swimming 2 hours
Holding Still 2.7 hours
H.E.L.P. position 4 hours
Huddling with others 4 hours

With hypothermia prevention equipment
Insulated flotation jacket (float coat) 3 – 9 hours
Survival Suit indefinite
 
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