Choice of anchor

This plugging the hole thing needs some clarification. Dora Jean is talking about the cable openings in the rear of a 25ftr that lead from the cockpit floor to the bilge beneath. NOT the cut out in the transom. Older boats like our's could let a ton of water down below, through these substancial openings.
On the anchor thing, I would trust the advice of folks in your intended cruising area. None of the Anchors will be a best fit in all locations!
Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
Thanks again to everyone for all your advice!!! This website is GREAT!!!!
I think I am going to go with the Delta 14, and keep my Fortress as a back up. Thanks,
Spiker
 
Alasgun":ozaihs8k said:
This plugging the hole thing needs some clarification. Dora Jean is talking about the cable openings in the rear of a 25ftr that lead from the cockpit floor to the bilge beneath. NOT the cut out in the transom. Older boats like our's could let a ton of water down below, through these substancial openings.
On the anchor thing, I would trust the advice of folks in your intended cruising area. None of the Anchors will be a best fit in all locations!
Mike on Huda Thunkit

Got it, I thought we were back to the original discussion again (cut-out).

True with the anchors. One of the most useful things I've found is one of the small folding achors and a light line. I can throw that thing underhanded like a bullet and position the stern in whatever direction I choose (and then drop as substantial hook).
 
spiker":z8u0y0is said:
I think I am going to go with the Delta 14, and keep my Fortress as a back up.
I'm a new C-Dory owner, so I don't claim any special wisdom about these boats in particular, but I did do a good deal of anchor research about ten years ago, and the conclusion I arrived at was Delta up front, Fortress aft (or down below). It sounds like you've come to the same conclusion I did.

Now (and only because it's sometimes fun to throw a wooden shoe into the machinery), have you looked at the Rocna? The inventor makes something of a nuisance of himself in various long-range cruising (sailing) forums, and he must edit the Wikipedia article on "anchor" once a week to keep his product prominent there. EVEN THOUGH he's a bit aggressive in his online promotion efforts, I have to admit that I am very interested in his anchor. The videos on his site are pretty convincing. It's made me want to check out all the new spade-derived anchors, in fact. Take a look: http://rocna.com/home.php?region=na
 
We used a CQR for years whilst cruising. Only failed us twice:
Off Rattlesnake Key, where the waves were just enough to make the anchor act like a plough (which it is,) while we slept through. Luck had us anchor about a mile out, and we were nearly on shore in the morn. Obviously the waves weren't enough to disturb our sleep.
And in the Chesapeake Bay, where a front got it to plough through the mud. Had to reset it a couple of times.

Note that the Delta and Lewmar Plow are also plow shaped. Other than pulling in soft bottom, great anchors. The Bruce on Journey On has not pulled through mud or sand, but it hasn't been really tested (thank God.)

I notice a lot of C-Brats have mentioned new anchor configurations. Has anybody ever bought and used any? I thought I'd stick with the common varieties of anchor.

The southern Boris
 
A few months? ago there was a poll on this topic. Bruce type was on more C-Dories than any other type, and Brats had them in the 5, 7.5 and 10 kg sizes on their 22s. Even the owners with the eleven pounders said they held great. That doesn't make it better or worse, just popular. I have a Bruce type 16 1/2 lbs, 20 feet chain, 200 feet 7/16 nylon (lots of spare line on board). The first year I had the boat a had a danforth type on the bow. This was just more awkward towing, docking, launching, etc. Also the Bruce is superb at setting the first time and resetting in a wind shift. I understand that the Delta and some other types are also good at this. I keep the danforth on board as a stern anchor, mud anchor (although the bruce has held just fine in mud), etc. Also carry a heavy mushroom anchor with six feet of really heavy chain as a lunch hook and stern fishing anchor when I need a vertical rode.

The danforth is stowed without line attached. But the chain and line rode I keep in the stern is readily available and I can attach in a hurry with a carabiner. Stowing the anchor with the rode attached took up too much room in one place. (Tip from Nick).

So I like the Bruce because it sets so nice and stays set. Relatively compact on the bow, etc. It can scoop a rock of just the right size but is better by far in rocks than the danforth. In a real heavy blow I would run a sentinel down the line and stick with the bruce.

Regards, Mark
 
Not For Hire":2ujibeyu said:
In a real heavy blow I would run a sentinel down the line and stick with the bruce.

Regards, Mark

For those who don't know what a "sentinel" or sentinel anchor" is, here's a good explanation and a link to the original "Anchor Tips" article:

"Use of a Sentinel

Another way to get more catenary out of an existing anchor rode—either chain or rope—is the use of a “sentinel” or “kellet” weight. This involves running a heavy weight down the rode to improve or maintain catenary as wind forces increase. It is an effective means of adding weight to the rode. After the anchor is set, the sentinel is typically deployed from the bow of a boat with a light line leading back from the sentinel to the boat for recovery, control, and placement. Some voyagers simply shackle or tie the sentinel to a chain link from the bow of the boat when the anchor first hits bottom and temporarily goes slack and before greater amounts of scope are veered out. Others prefer to slide the sentinel down the anchor chain by using a big shackle placed over the top of the chain with the weight attached to the shackle.
Location of the sentinel on the rode is important. To be most effective the weight should be set somewhere in the first half of the rode (closest to the anchor). The idea is to keep the initial section of rode weighted down as close to the bottom as possible.

How much weight is involved? A rule of thumb is that the weight should be a bit less than one pound for every foot of boat length. For a 40-foot boat, that would mean a sentinel of 30 to 40 pounds.

Use of a sentinel weight should be a standard tactic for the yacht skipper faced with deteriorating weather when at anchor. Others, as already discussed, include veering out more rode, increasing the amount of nylon in a rode, stripping the bow of a boat to move the center of effort aft, use of a small riding sail aft, and reducing windage in general."


Joe.
 
Good advice Mark and good explanation Joe.

I used a sentinel on my 23 foot sailboat a lot and it makes a big difference when it starts blowing.

I used two 6# diving weights tied together through the belt loops at both ends with paracord. They were then attached to a large, heavy duty snap hook that would slide down the anchor line and retrieved using 1/4" braided line which was kept on a diving line holder, kind of like a spool.

Nick
"Valkyrie"
 
I have no experience with sentinels so this has been a learning experience for me. Thanks, all. I googled this Anchor Buddy sentinel and wondered if anyone in Brat-land knows anything about it?

Thanks,
Warren
 
We carried a 30 lb lead Kellet (sentinel) with us on several hundred thousand miles of cruising and thousands of nights at anchor and never once used it. When thing are really blowing, you need an adequate sized anchor, and often a second anchor. The question is will a Kellet decrease the "jerking" when there are waves and really increase the holding of a properly set anchor which has enough scope. Our experience is that when the wind gets up to a certain point the rode will be bar tight, even with 3/8" chain. (I have had the opportunity to dive on the rode when in a storm of steady winds of 75 knots and gusts to 87 knots.) The chain was bar tight, and my pulling down would not budge it. My conclusion is that in moderate conditions the Kellet (Sentinel) might be of value to shorten the scope and increase the initial angle, but in severe conditions it probably would add little, and could cause complications if you have to let the line out, pull and reset the anchor, change chafing gear etc.

Earl Hinz in his excellent book on anchoring, only gives it a couple of paragraphs, points it out the potential use in a Bahamia moor to get the lines lower, the use to decrease the circle of swing in a crowded ancorage and also points out the danger the Kellet line fouling the prop.

We always attatch an anchor with a screw shackle and then sieze the pin with either an electrical tie or monel wire. A caribiner may be "OK" for a lunch hook, but there is too much danger of it failing or opening under load.
 
Thataway-

Nice "voice of experience" observations, Bob! Hard for me to imagine diving in those kinds of winds, but if it weren't for the fleeting Sweet Bird of Youth, well, maybe........Ha!

No doubt the sentinel or kellet can be overpowered, as your experience shows.

I wonder if it doesn't have some application, though, in limited wind conditions, as especially in tight anchorages where boats wandering around in the wind need as much help as possible to be restricted in their swing.

About a year or two ago we discussed how to limit the swinging at anchor problem, thinking that the C-Dory hulls had quite a bit of forward-centered windage that leads them toward excessive "searching".

There were a number of possibilities suggested to remedy the problem, and I remember one suggested possible solution was some kind of intermediate rode weight like the sentinel.

The thought was that the sentinel would make the swing circle tighter, slow the response time down to the wind, and make the overall boat motion in the waves somewhat moderated.

Would it be useful for this purpose and under these limited circumstances?

Joe.
 
One of the main reasons I bought our boat is to get away from a crowd, hopefully my wild swinging will deter would be cove comrades!
Mike on Huda Thunkit :smiled
 
Yes, Boats of different types swing differently--and theoretically kellets would slow the swing--but then you have added another factor to the "sailing" in a cove. Generally Kellets are sent down the rode on a saddle or large block, there is a line attatched to the kellet. Some folks will shackle the kellet to the chain. This adds the problem of having to un shackle the kellet as you bring the anchor up. (See below about moving in storm conditions). Do I carry the Kellet in the TC or C Dory?--no. But in the TC I have two Fortress, one Delta, one Northill, two sand screws and another Northill and a large Fortress, I could carry--and I would choose these options to a Kellet--at this point in life..

Frankly, it it is that crowded, we go somewhere else. Or in S. Calif, often all boats anchor fore and aft, so that swinging is not a problem--and the boat is held fore and aft into any swells comming into an anchorage. The beauty of the C Dory group is the shoal draft and ability to get "away" from the crowd.

As for diving on the rode. The circumstance was in the lee of Puenta St. Elena, Northern Costa Rica. The wind was a Papagayo. We had anchored in the lee of a cliff in the afternoon, at about 10 PM the wind shifted and made this a lee shore. We moved across the bay to be in the shelter of some Islands--and at 3 AM the wind shifted back--and we went back to the lee of the cliff. (The reason to stand an anchor watch) The next morning the wind was steady and we were calling out the wind speed off the aeronometer for entertainment. The water was warm and clear, the seas were relitatively calm--and we had two anchors well set. I slipped in the water over the stern and swam along the side of the boat to the anchor rode. I followed the rode all of the way to the anchors. This was free diving in about 10 feet of water. I had been free diving for 45 years at that time of life (as well as having been a certified diver for 30 years) and was a young 59 years old then. There was no risk in that dive. There were three others on the boat all capable of running the boat if there had been any problem. Just intellectual curosity and to prove my point that there is no cantry at a certain wind speed.
 
Craig Smith":m6auawrf said:
Kellets do have other uses. They reduce swinging circles in light conditions, and keep a boat from drifting around aimlessly. They can help reduce yawing and sailing at anchor. But, they do nothing to help anchor performance.

From my question above:

"The thought was that the sentinel would make the swing circle tighter, slow the response time down to the wind, and make the overall boat motion in the waves somewhat moderated."

Thanks for the confirmation, Craig!

Joe.
 
Dear Craig, this forum is for C-Dory owners and fans. Should you attempt to spam us the way you do the SSCA Discussion Board or Wikipedia we will show you the door.
Yes, you do build a good anchor, but I find your sales tactics offensive.
 
By the way folks, don't believe the chart in Craig Smiths first post. It is his adjusted version designed to make his Rocna anchor look good. That chart was not published by West Marine, Yachting Magazine, or Sail. It's just set up to look that way.
Craig, we're not bumpkins you can baffle with self serving BS. If you try to drag this forum down to sell your product the way you have elsewhere, we'll run you off.
 
Craig Smith,

Are you on this forum for any reason other than to sell your anchors?

We are not about commercial advertising disguised as a members post.

ON EDIT: Craig is gone, thanks administrators! :thup

I hope his anchors are better than he is! :wink
 
Some other anchoring considerations:
If you have seven to one scope you should have a circle of clearance equal to eight times the water depth and the center of the circle is the anchor. I think a scope of five to one with a mixed chain and nylon rode is enough.
In a big blow if the anchoring system fails it will fail at the weakest point. On the C-Dorys that may well be the bow roller. I don't think it could take the intermittent shocks sustained over time. Yet how many of us have proper fair leads (skene chocks) installed, and how many of us take the time to move the rode out of the roller, through the fairlead and to the fore cleat? Better yet would be a proper bridle system but how many C-Dories have two suitable cleats installed on the bow as sturdy as the stem cleat? If the bow roller is broken or bent or removed the rode can chafe all too soon.
A proper storm anchor should be three times the weight of your regular anchor. So for the 22 that would be 30 to 50 lbs. (approximate for any spade type anchor, danforth, bruce, delta, cqr, etc., less for the lightweight models such as Fortress) Nice to have but hell to store aboard. If I was anchoring and leaving the boat for any length of time I would want one.
Chapman is ambivalent about sentinels but does suggest a sentinel/kettle affixed to the chain at the point of attachment to the main rode could be a good thing.
Daily use includes trailering, launching, anchoring, retrieving. No single anchor design is best. Some hold the best in sand and mud - danforth, some skate the most and foul the most on weeds, etc - danforth. Some set and reset easiest, bruce, delta, cqr types, some launch easier, some hold better in weeds and rock and coral (hook types, kedges) etc.
Has anyone used a floating sentinel. That is -- a sturdy buoy between boat and anchor. The buoy supposedly receives much of the up and down shock and the force exerted on the boat is more horizontal.
A combination nylon and chain rode is best in a storm to have elastic anchoring.
My compromise is to have 20 feet of chain (when I see the chain I know I can get underway) and a 16 lb bruce. This suits most Great Lakes conditions. A delta or cqr or similar would have been dandy too, but I wanted one of those types for day in day out use. Besides I don't anchor out near enough but am looking forward to the day.

Regards,

Mark
 
Althugh most of us use the bow anchor roller, I agree that this is not the best way to attatch a rode. You are far better off using a snubber line, to a cleat directly on the side of the boat. This way there is no chafe on the main rode--since few if any C Dories have all chain, the snubber and chain hook don't necessarilly apply. However we use snubbers tied on the nylon 3 strand rode with a rolling hitch. This allows adjusting the point of chafe, changing chafing gear etc easily in a real blow. On our larger boats, we always used a snubber, which never took the load on the bow roller.

As for the weight of a storm anchor--yes, we generally like a much heavier storm anchor for the "ultimate storm" but the fluke area is also an extremely important consideration--maybe even more so than weight. In larger boats I used to say that the minimum size plow should be 35 lbs. That is way too heavy for a C Dory.--it is also very difficult to store.

The solution can be a light weight anchor which breaks down--such as the Fortress FX 37. This anchor weighs 21 lbs, breaks down for easy storage and will hold up to 3000 lbs. It is comperable to a 35 to 50 lb steel anchor in holding power (comperable bottoms, ie sand) This is what we carry on the Tom Cat 255 as a "storm anchor" On our larger boats we had anchors up to 150 lbs (but they broke down into 50 lb sections)--and 1/2" chain (weight 2.5 lbs a foot, or 50 feet weight was 125 lbs additional weight, plus 1" diameter rope--in other words, you don't only have to increase the anchor size, but also the rode and all gear associated with it).

We like the 7 : 1 scope--this has been well established, based on the Danforth type of anchors, to give the best shot at both penetration of the bottom and maintaining a downward migration of the anchor shank during a load. The anchor shank needs to remain parallel to the bottom, the fluke angle is 32 degrees in Danforth and Fortress anchors, and the rode angle with the shank needs to be 8 degrees or less. Remember that the "depth" includes the distance of the bow off the water, plus the depth of the water. There are some instances where we will set with a 7: 1 scope, power back and check for dragging, and shorten up scope if there are other boats nearby. However generally we stay with the 7:1 scope which is recommended for combination rope and chain rode--10:1 recommended for the all rope rode and 5:1 may be fine with all chain, until it begins to really blow.

As for the ball as a shock absorber; this is more likely used in coral infested waters, where there is a chance of the rode being entangled under a coral head and severed. Also a large bouy can hold the "weight" of the chain and keep this from depressing the bow--allowing it to rise more rapidly. All in all, one needs a longer rode to do this, because the float tends to effectively bring the rode to the surface before the bow of the boat. We have used this effectively in open water where there were coral head (for example we anchored on the Salvage Islands to dive on wrecks--pretty much out in the open and used this technique). It is not something I would use every day, especially with a C Dory. But it is a "Trick" which might help in some cases, to releive the strain on the boat.
 
thataway":13ev3f1r said:
Althugh most of us use the bow anchor roller, I agree that this is not the best way to attatch a rode. You are far better off using a snubber line, to a cleat directly on the side of the boat. This way there is no chafe on the main rode--since few if any C Dories have all chain, the snubber and chain hook don't necessarilly apply.

I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that a boat should always be anchored from the bow (I have noted carefully the many warnings not to anchor solely by the stern.) If you anchor by one of the forward side cleats on the TC, as I assume you are suggesting, is there a problem with the boat's bow not pointing to the anchor?

How about a bridle connected to both of the forward cleats? How would you connect the rode coming off the windlass to the bridle?

Thanks,
Warren
 
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