Charging Issues

S

spd

New member
During a two week cruise in late August up to Desolation Sound we experienced a few electrical hiccups. Nothing major, but it forced us to either stop for a few hours to charge or spend a night every 2 or 3 nights at a dock to charge, which is obviously not ideal. Relevant basics:

2006 Yamaha F115
(3) group 27 interstate FLA batteries, all new summer 2019 – (1) engine and (2) house
Mastervolt Chargemaster 25 Amp Charger
Blue Seas ACR
Balmar Smartgauge

Long story short (as short as possible) we were at Telegraph Harbor for two nights plugged into shorepower—however, the morning we left the SOC on the Balmar indicated we had only reached 90% SOC. We left Telegraph Harbor and had a long cruise up to Tenedos Bay. During that cruise we only reached 92% or so SOC, which was not normal. While we were in Tenedos for a few nights our house bank dropped to about 70%, so I started the Yamaha to bump up the charge a little, but after an hour the house bank was still at 70%. After further exploring I noticed the Yamaha output >14.4V (measured on the Smartgauge) when charging only the engine battery; then the ACR would combine the banks and the voltage would immediately drop to ~13V. After a short time the ACR would uncombine the banks and the engine battery voltage would go back up to >14.4V. I pulled the fuse on the ACR and set the battery switch to combine and the voltage never increased above ~13V, which I believe is more of a maintenance voltage and wasn’t able to increase the SOC. I then stopped at Refuge Cove for a few hours to recharge, and similar to Telegraph my SOC never got above ~90% (this would also be true other nights when we were charging at a dock all night). I assume the issue involves the charger switching to float too soon. However, what is also puzzling to me is that when the SOC started from shorepower at >~80%, the Yamaha voltage would be >14.4V, and a long cruise would increase the SOC to 100%.

Thus, I am dealing with two electrical gremlins: first, is there a problem with my Yamaha charging system (regulator/rectifier?) that prevents it from charging the system if it is depleted to lower than 75% SOC; and second, is there an issue with my Mastervolt charger that prevents it from charging the system to 100% SOC?

Any thoughts/advice would be much appreciated! Thanks, all.
 
I have a Balmar SG200. It usually indicates that the battery SOC is in the 80% range even after the charger goes into maintain mode. It usually will indicate 100% SOC after cruising for awhile. Sometimes, leaving the charger on for a few days will get the indicated SOC to 100%.

A couple of times, I have also had the SG200 show the SOC of the battery at ~4% (low charge warning) after driving to the ramp from home with the fridge running on the battery (about 1.5 hours). Since the electronics work and engine starts fine from this battery after I launch the boat, the SG200 is clearly not calculating SOC correctly.

I feel that the Victron 602 I had in before gave a better status of the battery SOC. The main advantage of the SG200 is the readability of display.

So far I live with it. Next time I get into the boat wiring from the helm to the engine I'll probably change the monitor back to the Victron. So far I've been to lazy to do it just for changing the battery monitor.

Balmar is supposed to sell a Bluetooth dongle and software updates for the SG200, but I haven't actually seen this for sale yet. Last time I checked various sites listed it, but didn't have it in stock or an arrival date.

Balmar designed this meter for larger deep cycle house battery banks that actually get deep cycles on them. The manual says that it may not work correctly for smaller banks that don't get cycled much (e.g. like small recreational boats). Seems to be the case in my instance.
 
I agree with ssobol, that the Balmar SOC is the most likely culprit, without examining the system.

Is this something new since you changed out the batteries? When you changed the batteries, did you checked all of the connections (including all grounds) for corrosion? Did you re-calibrate the Balmar meter? Do you have a shunt? (The second generation SG200 has the shunt, to measure amps. The first generation does not have a shunt, and only relies on voltage.

is it possible that for some reason one of the house batteries was not getting charged? (thru the VSR, or Switch)? Did you check each battery with a digital volt meter directly? Direct measurement of each battery is very important--there can be resistance or other issues to give false readings from a remote meter.

Generally outboards are not well regulated chargers--14.4 volts is not unusual (and the reason I put a battery to battery charger between my engine start and the LiFePO4 batteries). The outboard goes directly to the engine start battery, and then the two house (as one bank) are combined with either the switch or combiner. So why was the "combiner" "uncombing"? It combines when the voltage reaches about 13.7V, and does not "uncombine" until it drops to about 12.7V. There should not be uncombining unless there is a huge draw which drops the house to less than 12.7 (a load greater than what the engine alternator can put out. ). The Yamaha 115 puts out 35 amps at WOT. I don't know what it puts out at idle, but is its possible that the draw on the house is greater than the output. (you could measure the output, or at least current flow to the batteries, with the Victron, or other meter that has a shunt.). Knowing the current in and out, is really important in diagnosing issues. To measure without a shunt requires a clamp on inductive meter (if current may be 10 amps or greater). Be sure you have a meter capable of DC current measurement.

The chances of having both the Yamaha, which seems to be working well (puts out 14.4 volts) and a quality charger go bad at the same time, seems very low.

So I would begin looking at other factors: Is it possible that you have a defective battery, even though they are new? This means charging to full capacity, then doing a load test. Also doing specific gravity (hydrometer) on each of the battery cells may show that there is a bad cell. (should show up on load tester).

Often we never get our batteries up that last 10 to 20% with our normal cruising. This why I like to either run our generator, or hook up to shore power every few days to get up to 100% SOC. Most boats run their batteries on short cruises from 40% to 80% charged.

Finally, is the Balmar Smart meter really the end all of knowing where your battery is? The SG200 adds a lot with the addition of the shunt, but you still half to do the diagnostics with a hand held volt meter.
 
You need to have a proper load test on the battery. The one the auto parts store does in an hour is not always accurate.

I had a 1 year old battery in my truck. I found that the truck would not start. It cranked ok, but would not fire. If I jumped it, it would fire right up. Once started the truck would be usable for one day, but by the next it would not start again. After doing multiple things to diagnose the problem I took the battery to the parts store and left it to be tested. After an hour they called and said it checked out ok. Put it back in the truck and it started right away (because they had just charged the battery). Next day it would not start again.

Since I was out of possibilities, I replaced the battery. No problems starting the truck since.

FWIW, the problem was that the battery could not maintain sufficient voltage to power the ECU when cranking the motor. If the ECU voltage on my truck drops below ~11.5 volts the ECU won't work and then the engine quits (or won't fire). Even though the voltage was too low for the ECU, there was still enough to crank the engine well. You wouldn't think from the sound, rate, and duration of cranking that the battery had a problem at all.
 
To adequately test the batteries a 500 amp variable carbon Pyle tester ($75,up) is necessary. These only use 15 seconds of power to do the test. The 100 amp testers ($35 up) just won't tell enough.

Although it may not apply in this case, 90% of electrical problems I have asked to look at involve corrosion at some point. We carry a SS and a brass brush, contact cleaner, and a dielectric grease to put on terminals after cleaning.
 
Thank you all for your responses.

I have the first generation Smartgauge without a shunt. It sounds like I shouldn’t be worried about obtaining a full SOC indication from the shorepower system. It may be an unreliable reading also because I haven’t cycled the batteries enough after changing them (and I kept disconnecting them trying to track these problems down during the trip).

I investigated a little more and wrote down the results. I used a multimeter directly on the batteries.

At first, the SOC indicated 90%. I pulled the fuse on the ACR and used to switch to combine/uncombine the batteries.

Motor Off, Uncombined (no loads on battery)
Engine Battery (E) – 12.60
House Bank (H) – 12.47
Start Motor (at idle), Uncombined
E – 14.67
H – 12.47
Combined (at idle)
E – 14.56
H – 14.56

Next, I turned the refer on (Engel MR040F) and ran it for about 12 hours on the coldest setting. Afterwards, the Smartgauge indicated 60% SOC.

Motor Off, Uncombined (fridge still on)
E – 12.60
H – 12.16
Start Motor (at idle), Uncombined, fridge turned off
E – 14.74
H – 12.25
Combined (at idle)
E – 12.67
H – 12.64
Combined (@ 2000 RPM)
E – 13.12
H – 13.05

I also pulled the fuses to the electrical panel and windlass (to make sure the loads were taken off), both of which are about 18” from the batteries.

I only have a 100 A load tester – but am charging the system now and will take out the batteries and load test them next. The bold numbers above are puzzling to me – why would I get a charging voltage when the batteries are at a 90% SOC indication but not be able to charge when the batteries are drawn down? I should add that these voltages are the same as I measured on our longer trip for the same circumstances, and on drawn-down batteries the voltage would continually rise to ~13.5V at cruising RPM but never get high enough to charge the batteries.
 
From what I see there, everything is normal. The house battery of 12.16 with the refer on is not steady state. You want to have any charging or draw off for at least an hour, preferably 2 hours to measure "steady state voltage". !2.2 volts at steady state is considered 50% discharge with FLA battery. The 60% SOC may well be right.

The Motor off, uncombined house if steady state would be about 75%+ charged by voltage alone

The motor at idle, has the alternator putting out--house is still at 75% SOC.

Combined at idle, both are charging from the alternator.

After load--refer for 12 hours, Motor off see above. Start battery 100% charged

Start motor at idle, refer off-to be expected-motor is charging--even though the battery is close to 100% charged--there is in-adequate regulation of an outboard alternator.

Combined at idle--that alternator is working hard--and putting amps into the battery--that is why it is nice to have the shunt--and know how many amps.

Combined at 2000 RPM--The alternator is basically in bulk charge phase. The alternator is putting out max amps, and slowly bringing up the voltage. Now--there is not really a defined stage set, but the theory is the same. Why is the engine start battery not higher, because it is combined with the house bank--and you will see what the combined battery bank voltage is rather a single battery bank--as house vs engine start.

I suspect that your load test will be fine. The only caveat is if you have discharged these new house batteries too deeply. A couple of times to voltage of 12 may not cause damage. Each time you discharge, it takes a little life out of the battery. The best "compromise" for FLA batteries, is the 50% discharge or steady state of 12.2 volts. The LiFePO4 batteries will discharge 90% and have little effect on their longevity. But you don't want to spend the several thousand dollars for that system...

My conclusion is that the refrigerator is doing its job, but it is pulling down the batteries perhaps a bit more than you anticipated. This is the reason I went to bigger battery banks with refrigerators. Your load testing may show some compromise of the batteries, if you have drawn them down too much...

The alternator is fine, the Balmar is fine. The combiner is fine.
 
This has been an interesting thred. After the last 2 boats with smart meters trying to keep track of my 3 way charging, alternator, solar, shore Pro Mariner, I have given up on smart meters, I ended up chasing weird gremlins all the time, rereading instructions over and over, reprogramming this and that parameter, I used to enjoy that stuff but now I am over that BS. To go back to K.I.S.S. on this boats rewire I put in an ACR and separate bank switches and a manual combine switch then put in a Blue Seas digital voltage meter that switches between banks. I keep a voltage percentage cheat sheet card handy and just track the feeling of what's going on in my head, if something doesn't feel right I use my pro grade clamp on DC ammeter/voltmeter and isolation switches to sort it out.
I replaced the group 27s with 31s the bigger the house bank the better for keeping the house above 12.4/80% overnight with the fridge and freezer turned low.
I'm an much happier without the frustration of smart meters that used to torture me and I think they are really designed for large yachts with people who are paid to maintain them!
 
I agree with Bob that your voltage readings appear to be appropriate for the various battery conditions you measured. I also agree with Micah that measuring charging from multiple sources is problematic. KISS is better. I think your Smartgauge and batteries are probably Ok.

I was frustrated with similar charging issues until a ran across this site. https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/

The site is based on RV/solar setups but its very applicable. Its kind of long but worth it. I am not an expert but I think this site gave me the start I needed to figure my batteries and charging issues out.

Here are some key points that helped me:

1. The analogy "Charging a battery is like filling a tire with air" is a good. (Think Battery= Tire; Voltage= pressure and amps= volume)

2. Using battery voltage to estimate SOC is only meaningful for a battery that has stabilized after use. (Fully at rest)

3. Measuring volts during charging or while under load is misleading and a waste of time. (However, measuring amps during charge/load is very valuable informative)

4. Most battery chargers quit charging before the battery is full. Battery manufacturers list the voltage needed to fully charge their battery; and "smart-charger" manufacturers list their programmed voltage which they go into float. (That's why my Smartgauge SOC only reads 90% when my charger says the battery is full.) I seldom see 100%. In order to get 100% SOC on my Smartgauge I would need to either use a unregulated manual charger or run the boat engines at high RPMs for a several hours. The last 10% seems harder to get into the batteries, so for me, its not worth a lot of extra effort.

5. Know how much battery amperage you use. Depending on conditions, I use between 30 to 50 amp/hrs in 24 hrs. The boat motor (17amps at max RPMs); the 10/10amp Guest charger that came with the boat; or my 100w solar panel are all useful charging sources, but they are not fast recharge sources. When my batteries get to 60% SOC, I use a Honda 2000 generator and external West Marine 1 bank-40amp charger to get back to 90% SOC in a reasonable amount of time. It can charge up to about 50amp/hrs +/- into the batteries in less than 2 hrs.

6. Isolate multiple charging sources from each other. Combining multiple charging sources tends to confuse their regulators/controllers/meters etc. If they interpret the high input voltage from another charging source as the voltage of battery, they tend to shut each other off and/or give inconsistent readings.

Good luck and have fun!
Jim
 
Thanks for the interesting link, Jim. One item I found a bit unusual in the solar community was the preference for a PWM over the MPPT controller for solar power. His rational is based on running on the top 15% of the batteries, having a good sized solar input, never allowing any shading of the panels, and full time use on the RV.

He re-inforced a point I made earlier--have a hydrometer to measure specific gravity, if you have flooded Lead acid batteries. This is one very cheap and simple way to know when you have fully charged batteries--and allows quick recognition of a bad or weakened cell.

I do feel that there are some real pluses for AGM batteries in our boats--he makes for points against them, including that the charging requirements are slightly different, and that you cannot check the specific gravity.

I would need to either use a unregulated manual charger or run the boat engines at high RPMs for a several hours. The last 10% seems harder to get into the batteries, so for me, its not worth a lot of extra effort.
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This is the only place I slightly disagree with Jim--and that is because he is using the Guest charger which came with his boat. There are a number of chargers, including Victron, Mastervolt, NOCO (Genius line), Blue Seas, ProMariner --ProNautic (Sterling) --and some I have probably missed, which do a good job of topping off the batteries. Many of these have adjustable profiles--including several which are manually adjustable for multi perimeters. I have used the forced charge--as Jim uses for some time--with the west Marine portable charger. Unfortunately the newest models of these don't seem to be as good as the older red ones.

There are a lot of advantages of a State Of Charge meter which measures amps in and out, plus total amps. Although they are a little more expensive that a pure voltmeter, if they allow longer battery life and better usage they may save money.
 
Using 3 charging sources can confuse things but if all a used separately it's not too bad, one thing I was advised on and may help, I hook the solar to the + if my second house battery so inputs are separated. I wish I could get a simple amps in amps out set up but that combination of shunts and gauges doesn't seem to exist, at some point I may cobble one together.
I like MPPT controllers I did a side by side comparison back and forth when I changed out my old original one in the sailboat. I like my new MorningStar a giant step forward from the first one on the sailboat 15 years ago, it has a digital "smart meter" display as I do keep a strict eye on my solar output at anchor. At anchor I check the battery voltage with everything off before sunrise if it is 12.5 volts or higher every morning and 14.2 by 2:00 PM I absolutely know all is good. (Life is always good with cold beer in the fridge and frozen steaks in the freezer!)
For some untold reason when I replaced the old charger in Sierra I put in a Guest, its "float" was not tapered off low enough so the volts always were constantly high indicating a constant charge which meant I was constantly adding water. 2 weeks ago I pulled it and put in a Pro Mariner like I had in the Tug, so much better charge profile, it actually charges up then shuts off completely till the volts drop slightly before repeating the float stage charge, much better self monitoring.
So many variables from corrosion to charging sources makes for an interesting discussion.....
 
I wish I could get a simple amps in amps out set up but that combination of shunts and gauges doesn't seem to exist, at some point I may cobble one together.
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Maybe I am missing something; If you put only the battery bank negative on one side of the shunt, and then the 3 charging sources (motor, battery charger and solar) on the other side, it should show in and out for all of the sources from one point. I don't have solar, but do have battery (engine start) to battery and charger to battery on the LiFePO4 bank. Works fine.

If you want to see how much the solar is putting in--some controllers have the info--or a cheap just ammeter from amazon would do the job. I know that some Morningstar has this capability--not sure if a second shunt would be necessary. Some of the cheap meters use Hall effect for amps rather than a shunt.
 
Well, if the battery charger is on and the solar is working, they may both read the current (as in right now) voltage as the battery voltage and stop feeding the battery a charge.
 
ssobol":3d428o7t said:
Well, if the battery charger is on and the solar is working, they may both read the current (as in right now) voltage as the battery voltage and stop feeding the battery a charge.
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Current (as in amps.) charges batterys, volts don't realy mean diddly. :wink:
 
You are right, if you put a shunt on the house bank negative, discount the ACR, you will know your total draw but I also want to know the distribution of the different draws in the system and the smart meters seem to be about hours not so much real time and a hot vs. cold day or any other glitch or draw can throw me off.
My solar controller has it's own "smart meter" but at any point of charge the amp. output is controlled by the battery state of charge, I wish it had a test to a load switch so you could measure your full solar amperage output at any time, as it is you only know when the batteries are in full bulk charge.
Maybe if smart meters had a simple rotary, labeled switch instead of endless menus and press and hold ways of navigating I could deal with them. (I am of the old school and maybe stupid to begin with school)
I like discreet and simple stuff.
I have a couple of left over high amperage shunts I think I will order a Blue Seas Ammeter that is a match for my volt meter that I can use on my negative so I will at least know my total draw. That will work in conjunction with my clamp on Blue Seas DC ammeter which I find is most essential, useful, AND SIMPLE. (Can easily measure any draw in real time on any wire).
I will still have to make sure the values of the shunts match the value the ammeter reads or I will be adding or subtracting zeros.
Going back to my original premise, if you know your house bank resting voltage before dawn and your late mid day voltage every day after charging and you are happy with them, that is all you really need.

I hope this post makes some kind of sense......
 
You are right, if you put a shunt on the house bank negative, discount the ACR, you will know your total draw but I also want to know the distribution of the different draws in the system and the smart meters seem to be about hours not so much real time and a hot vs. cold day or any other glitch or draw can throw me off.
My solar controller has it's own "smart meter" but at any point of charge the amp. output is controlled by the battery state of charge, I wish it had a test to a load switch so you could measure your full solar amperage output at any time, as it is you only know when the batteries are in full bulk charge.
Maybe if smart meters had a simple rotary, labeled switch instead of endless menus and press and hold ways of navigating I could deal with them. (I am of the old school and maybe stupid to begin with school)
I like discreet and simple stuff.
I have a couple of left over high amperage shunts I think I will order a Blue Seas Ammeter that is a match for my volt meter that I can use on my negative so I will at least know my total draw. That will work in conjunction with my clamp on Blue Seas DC ammeter which I find is most essential, useful, AND SIMPLE. (Can easily measure any draw in real time on any wire).
I will still have to make sure the values of the shunts match the value the ammeter reads or I will be adding or subtracting zeros.
Going back to my original premise, if you know your house bank resting voltage before dawn and your late mid day voltage every day after charging and you are happy with them, that is all you really need.

I hope this post makes some kind of sense......
 
Ssobol, you are right, about 2 charging systems confusing and canceling each other out.
On my sailboat it took me a while to sort out that while motoring the alternator voltage regulator was attenuating its charge because it sensed the higher voltage in the bank being provided by the solar charge. The easy fix was to turn off the solar system.
My current shore Pro Mariner charger and the Morningstar solar controller seem smart enough to be able to work together but I have been turning the solar system off while at the dock.
All 3+ charging systems are not designed as integrated systems yet, alternator, solar, battery charger plus using a generator into your shore battery charger. On my Honda 2000 generator, it would not run the shore battery charger as it has a safety feature that senses a good neutral back to the power plant, as per Google and the internet I combined the ground and neutral lugs In a purposed extension cord and with a sense of trepidation plugged it in, and it worked perfectly.
But if all these systems are designed separately this way it is no wonder things are hard to track down and solve.

I will say again, if you check your house bank voltage while everything has been turned off long enough for them to be "at rest" and know your banks amp hour rating using a battery % table to you can easily find out how many amp hours are in your batteries tank "SOC"
If you check battery voltage while charging and it is say 14.2 and above but below 15.1you know your batteries are low enough to need the full output of whatever is charging them. If it is say 13.2 or nearby, your batteries are charged and in the float stage of charge, 12.2 and under, getting too low for comfort and if it is in this range a lot you are starting to shorten your battery life and if it is going down below 11.55 you have a problem. All these need to be steady state, not momentary.
Anyway, personally, having a simple mind, I am much happier without my old "smart meters"!
 
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