Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150

Great to hear you are happy with the new motor.
Those performance numbers are impressive, sure beats the Honda 150.
Looking forward to seeing you at FH, you might have some people who want to take a ride and fill up your gas fund! :D
 
You are close to optimal performance at 5300 RPM--but ideally would want 5500 RPM, at WOT. The engine can swing a 16" prop--for the low pitch end of the performance range. You will note that the 11", 12",13" and 14"pitch props are mostly 15 1/2 to 16" diameter. These are going to be "power props" for heavier boats...the C Dory 25. The prop you have now is a 4 blade SS, 14.65" diameter and 15" pitch prop. You want a 13 to 13.5" diameter prop--thinking correctly, that the smaller diameter prop will will turn faster. But the prop manufacturers only make those smaller diameter props in much higher pitch which are for bass boats, which are more "performance" props (speed) for light weight boats.

Also there is the 4 blade vs 3 blade prop. Generally the 4 blade gives more stern lift and is less likely to capitate. But it will run a bit slower, with more blade surface area--and generally is pitched 1" lower than a comparable 3 blade prop.

My suggestion is to try 15" diameter x 15" pitch 3 blade prop, in aluminum. I'll bet that you will pickup the top RPM, about the same speed (which you don't need) and probably a better "hole" shot. The advantage of the 4 blade is especially nice in the deep V boats, where they don't come on a plane easily and at higher speeds. You don't really need that because the C Dory 25 planes at a low speed. You always want an extra prop--and if the aluminum 3 x 15 x 15 is the right prop, then you can get your good prop in SS...or keep the SS as your back up.

I doubt that the engine is lugging any with that 4 blade SS prop on, even though you are not turning quite the optimal WOT RPM....
 
Tosca,

My worthless previous comments of 10 Oct 2015 aside, I am happy to learn your
new setup with a 200 Yamaha is working out well for you. The lesson I get out
of this is it must be true; that sometimes a problem can be solved by throwing a
lot of money at it.

But I digress, so back to the original 'bad' Honda issue* in which I am invested.
My setup is 2 x Honda BF90s. When delivered, early 2014, the dealer and his
mechanic emphasized that the biggest problem they see** with these engines,
transplants from the Honda Civic, comes from not running enough at full throttle;
"babying" them when new just after breakin period. Accordingly, the problem
comes from the piston rings (I could have exact part wrong here) not fully seating
in a newer engine when babied vs intentionally running at WOT during this early
running period causing further problems down the line. This may be counter
intuitive for some, maybe many. And, it is not mentioned in the Honda Owners
Manual like another potential problem of not allowing the engine(s) to heat up
adequately (not running over 3000 rpm) with every run.

So, for some, FYI. And happy running with your new Yammy 200.

Aye.

* your Honda 150
** and have been told by the local Honda rep
 
thataway,
You want a 13 to 13.5" diameter prop......
Click to expand...
OOPS......I am always getting those diameter and pitch numbers backwards. So I've mislead you. I am quite happy with the 14.65" diameter. In any case, the largest diameter prop that would fit is 15" (the trim tab that doubles as a sacrificial zinc would be in the way otherwise).

I meant to say that I'd like to go down to 13", 13.5", or 14" pitch from the 15" pitch I have now. As I understand it 1" pitch down typically gives you 200 additional RPM.

Whatever I do, if I do anything, I will keep the 4 blades. It might be other factors such as the new engine itself, but the boat has never had less vibration at all RPMs as it does now. The boat just seems to run "smoother". I've convinced myself that the opposed nature of the blades on a 4 bladed prop can do no other than to lessen vibration given its naturally balanced design.
 
Foggy":509ffsmf said:
And, it is not mentioned in the Honda Owners
Manual like another potential problem of not allowing the engine(s) to heat up
adequately (not running over 3000 rpm) with every run.
Click to expand...

Foggy, can you elaborate on this? If I haven't used the boat for a while, I'll sometimes run my Honda 150 at idle for 10-15 minutes without taking it out. Is that a bad idea and why? Should I be revving it up to 3000 and for how long? Thanks.
 
shontm":24gfawh5 said:
Foggy":24gfawh5 said:
And, it is not mentioned in the Honda Owners
Manual like another potential problem of not allowing the engine(s) to heat up
adequately (not running over 3000 rpm) with every run.
Click to expand...

Foggy, can you elaborate on this? If I haven't used the boat for a while, I'll sometimes run my Honda 150 at idle for 10-15 minutes without taking it out. Is that a bad idea and why? Should I be revving it up to 3000 and for how long? Thanks.
Click to expand...

My understanding is most engines run most efficiently, last longest and
perform best at "operating temperature"; not 'cold' or 'overheated'. If an engine is
out of service for an extended period, I see no advantage of running it at idle
periodically without allowing it to reach operating temperature. It might be better
for it to just sit and stay cold. Likewise, long term slow speed running without
allowing same to occur, like long cruises on northern cold waters or the like, the
engine(s) may not reach operating temperature. Failure to reach operating
temperature leads to trouble.

From the Honda Owner's Manual pgs. 53 and 80 for my 2013 Honda BF90s:

* Allow the engine to warm up (3 minutes if >41*F, 5 minutes if <41*F then
@ 2000 rpm before increasing engine speed.

* Failure to warm up engine to reach operating temperature deteriorates the
engine oil which becomes less efficient as a lubricant and causes engine
malfunction. (Look for 1. and 2. below on your oil dip stick)
1. Water condenses in the engine and mixes with oil resulting in a
milky appearance.
2. Unburned fuel mixes with oil which increases oil volume.

* Failure to warm up engine to reach operating temperature may come from
3. Running less than 3000 rpm for more than 30% of the time
(Ex: while on that lazy day cruise)
4. Frequent stopping and starting

Hope this helps.

Aye.
 
When delivered, early 2014, the dealer and his mechanic emphasized that the biggest problem they see** with these engines, transplants from the Honda Civic, comes from not running enough at full throttle....
Click to expand...
Foggy,

That may well be so; however, in my case the problem was a known (known by Honda it seems) problem with the thrust bearing in the 2005/2006 (and maybe some other year) Hondas. Apparently, in those vintage engines the crankshaft now riding vertical, instead of horizontal as it was in the original Civic application, was not supported well. Too much play could result over time which could (and did in my case) destroy the thrust bearing and soon thereafter damage the entire engine.

I've been told that in later year models a change was made to the engine that added a heavier duty spring that supports the crankshaft more firmly and eliminates the thrust bearing play/collapse issue.
 
related info from

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... erday.html


Honda Marine has recently issued a Service Bulletin addressing the issues with thrust washer and/or main bearing failures in a limited number of Honda Marine BF200/225/250 engines.

A typical symptom is low oil pressure alert, the engine goes into protection mode, and the speed is limited to 1,800 rpm. In some cases, the upper thrust washer may become pinched, which may result in excessive heat and then failure of the washer and/or #3 main bearing.

Honda Marine has replacement short blocks that include improved thrust washers and a crankshaft support spring assembly. Honda is extending the warranty period for a total of 7 years or 2,500 hours on affected BF200/225/250 models for thrust washer failure. The extended warranty is limited to the failure of the thrust washer and/or #3 bearing ONLY.

Affected units are listed below:

BF200A
BAEJ-1600102 through BAEJ-1800315
BAFJ-1600013 through BAFJ-1800038

BF225A
BAGJ-1600528 through BAGJ-1800666
BAHJ-1600176 through BAHJ-1800226

BF250A
BBJJ-1000001 through BBJJ-1003028
BBJJ-8000001 through BBJJ-8000746

To qualify for this repair:
a. Unit must be in the serial number range
b. Unit must have less than 2,500 total hours
c. A number of Oil Alerts have occurred.
d. Honda Marine dealer must extract engine data using the special "Dr. H Diagnostic Kit" (Honda Special Tool)
e. Dealer must measure the crankshaft endplay to determine the condition of the thrust washer(s)

Registered owners of engines in the affected ranges will receive a letter from Honda Marine outlining the details of the Service Bulletin.

Qualified engines with the issue will be updated at no cost; the engine's owner is responsible for transport of the engine to a Honda Marine Dealer.

Owners who have previously paid for repairs to the thrust washer or #3 main bearing on eligible units within the revised warranty period may be eligible for reimbursement:
• You must have paid for the repair prior to receiving notice
• You must have been the owner of the marine engine at the time the service was done. You may still qualify for reimbursement if you no longer own the marine engine.

To apply for reimbursement:
1. Print out and complete the attached form:



2. Obtain a copy of the repair receipt or invoice
3. Obtain copy of proof-of-payment for the repairs
4. Submit the above three documents to:

____American Honda Motor Co, Inc.
____Customer Relations Department
____4900 Marconi Drive
____Alpharetta, GA 30005

Please allow up to six weeks for processing.

Questions? Speak first to your local Honda Marine Dealer. Find them using this link:
Find A Honda Marine Dealer

If you can't get help from them, contact Honda Marine Customer Relations:
Honda Marine Customer Relations
4900 Marconi Drive
Alpharetta, GA 30005
Phone 770-497-6400

Finally, as an FYI, this is a Service Bulletin, not a Product Recall. A Product Recall is only done in the case of a potential safety issue; Product Recalls are issued in cooperation with US Consumer Product Safety Commission
__________________
- - -
Robert@Honda

1NO REGRETS is offline
 
Finally, as an FYI, this is a Service Bulletin, not a Product Recall. A Product Recall is only done in the case of a potential safety issue; Product Recalls are issued in cooperation with US Consumer Product Safety Commission
Click to expand...

Interesting that Honda does not consider failure of an engine (lets say it occurs as your boat is running a breaking inlet, or turning near a jetty, with an on shore wind? An engine failure in that situation does immediately become a safety issue! Liability?

Some our our members have the 200-- Hopefully they can get their engines "Fixed"....
 
Thanks Sandy for a great test ride yesterday, that Yamaha 200 is awesome!!!

Fred and Robbin, from Anita Marie and myself were lucky to accompany Sandy on Tosca yesterday on a little test ride in San Juan Channel outside of Friday Harbor.

The motor is quieter and has more power and is smoother than the Honda 150 VTEC. There is constant, smooth power from the get go and no hesitation when the variable cam timing is about to kick in on the Honda motor.

The Yamaha just purrs at 3400 rpm with a SOG of 17 mph, which is a very comfortable smooth cruise speed for us. With our Honda, 15x15 aluminum prop, same speed is around 4800 rpm.

5000 rpm was 32 mph with Yamaha on a stretch of smooth water! Wow! It was Sandy's suggestion, not mine.

So if anyone is looking to purchase new or repower on a 25 C-Dory, strongly consider the Yamaha 200. You won't be disappointed IMHO.
 
Just out of curiosity, what was the Yamaha's mileage (gallon per nautical mile, or something) while you were planing, hull speed, wot, etc.?

200 hp ought to get it up on plane quickly, but does mileage suffer?

Boris
 
Well, this is an interesting thread I have been following with some interest as I have, in the last three years, mounted three new BF150AK engines on two boats (one was twins, don't worry!) at the office.

I only just got done breaking in one of them which has a jet foot on it. Sadly, this thread got started a couple days after we ordered and paid for our newest one.

I have learned one thing here, and I'm not sure it is correct, so please let me know:

This problem can be detected early by looking for play, and then a replaced thrust bearing will solve the issue before it destroys your engine?

Thanks! I didn't see much about this issue before I bought, I'm hoping it's the rare exception!

John
 
." A number of Oil Alerts have occurred. "

so I just joined this thread. I have a honda 225 on the back of the 27. I find it interesting that honda will only replace you part IF you are already having alerts and not as a preventive measure. It as if they are hoping you will make it to the 7 years before the problem shows up. I will have to go look and see if my motor is on the list.
 
Those of us who don't put a lot of hours on our engines likely would not object to spending a few hundred every few years on maintenance to ensure a long lasting engine. Just tell us, and offer a decent price on parts. We will be happy campers. 90HP Suzuki owner.
 
journey on":2x8waxez said:
How did you find out about the spring. I've looked through the exploded views of the 150 Honda and can't find any spring supporting the crankshaft. It seems like a worthwhile safety addition, if ones motor hasn't blown yet.
Click to expand...
I don't know for a fact that such a spring exists. All I know is that at least one Honda certified mechanic told me that this crankshaft problem in some Hondas can be fixed, if caught in time, by installing this beefed up spring. Another mechanic simply mentioned that the crankshaft support can be strengthened, but he did not mention a spring. The one other thing I can tell you for sure is that all mechanics I talked to (3 or 4) told me that these Hondas have some sort of design flaw that results in the thrust bearing that supports the now vertical crankshaft fails. Most of these mechanics had seen the problem multiple times.
 
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