C-Dory Warranty now null and void

[ramos]

Dave,
You did a better job of putting my feelings into words than I did. Thank You!

 

[JamesTXSD]

My sincere apologies to Dave Deem and the Fluid Marine folks. I did say "likely" in my post, and I am certainly not privy to the actual goings on. I can say without any uncertainty, that they left owners without warranty coverage. THAT is the basic problem in this thread. What I see happening here is an attempt to pressure a company that had no involvement with the problems of the Reynolds and Fluid Marine into accepting their liabilities... and calling it "good will."

I haven't participated in any discussions here regarding "politics", but this topic feels very close to that. The two sides will not be able to convince each other, apparently. I believe in fair play and accepting responsibility for ones actions. Being a business owner is a tough situation... you have responsibilities to your customers, the general public, your suppliers, your employees, and yourself. A good business will be fair... doing so means you don't have to be fearful of someone using "good will" against you.

Our opinions here may or may not mean much to the SeaSport folks; I've never visited with them. Experience shows what the previous C-Dory owners thought of our opinions. Your opinions are important to me... this C-Brat family is one of the reasons we bought our C-Dory. While we won't always agree on everything, I'd like to think we can do so without being disagreeable. Those who've followed my posts over the years know I generally say what I think. I may joke or tease, but I certainly wouldn't "slander" anyone intentionally. It's easy to see how discussions like this get out of hand.

Ask yourself who dumped on you with your warranty coverage and then do what you think is fair. In the business world, the vote that matters is the one you make with your dollars. Who would you trust to buy another boat from?

My last post on this subject.
Jim

 

[Da Nag]

Sea Sport wants to have their cake and eat it too. If they buy the molds and slap a Sea Sport logo on them fine. If they slap a C-Dory logo on them they are using A LOT more than a hull mold, they are using the brand equity you and I helped create.

This is what continues to irk me the most. And unlike others here, I couldn't care less how long this dead horse gets beat...it's obviously an issue important to many C-Brats, and that's who this site is for. The fact that these threads remain civil and very active, indicates they have value.

Much as I continue to hear great things about SeaSport - from people I highly respect - Matt's points above seem to be conveniently ignored and/or discounted by those siding with SeaSport on this issue.

They did NOT buy "just the molds" - regardless of how many times this inaccurate statement is made. They obviously bought the rights to the brand in this "asset only" sale. Were that not the case, the boats would be labeled something other than "C-Dory", and/or any other manufacturer could build a boat and sell it as a "C-Dory".

This component of their purchase is not simply semantics, or some footnote of their purchase. SeaSport recognized the value in the brand, something I'm sure was factored into the purchase price. They benefit hugely from the reputation of the brand, which they had absolutely nothing to do with. They use this heritage to market the new boats they build, but refuse to support the same heritage they are leveraging for new sales.

Most people seem OK with the above - I'm not, but I've no illusions that continued bitching about the issue will change anything. I've heard all the arguments, and even though I disagree with them, I understand them. More importantly, it's not an issue that drives any kind of wedge between me and the many friends I've made here. SeaSport's business decisions are insignificant, compared to the great things this community offers.

But as I've stated before, this is a two-way street between SeaSport and existing/potential C-Dory owners. I've bought 2 1/2 C-Dorys - two of them new - and prior to this decision by SeaSport, I'd have been hard pressed to look elsewhere come upgrade time.

Now - I'll look at all options if/when that day comes. Yes, I'll give SeaSport C-Dorys a fair shake. However, my brand loyalty is not what it used to be. My previous purchasing decisions were based mostly on the function and quality of the boat, but what closed the sale, was the commitment to existing customers and this group by previous owners of the company. Fluid Marine never asked if they built the boat when warranty issues arose, even though they also made an "asset only" purchase. For all the faults of the Reynolds era, there are numerous reports of them providing great customer support for boats out of warranty, and/or built by the Tolands. I'm not naive enough to believe the previous two owners did any of this wholly out of the goodness of their hearts; they obviously recognized what an integral part of their success we were, and knew that keeping us happy was a mutually beneficial decision.

SeaSport obviously doesn't see things the same way as their predecessors. That is their prerogative, and given their long-term success and excellent reputation for boat building, I'm not going to suggest they need our input on how to run their business. I'm sure they are aware they'll lose some customer loyalty benefits with their warranty decision, and have decided the trade-off is worth it.

 

[Big Mac]

I for one am a little tired of the bashing of the Reynolds build C-dorys. We ordered and bought the first C-dory built from Scot's group after the 2001 SBS. I could go on for a long time about the great service and concern for a satisfied customer that we felt dealing with Scot and later Jeff. After ordering the boat from Scot their was communication with production updates throughout the build. Scot and Gene personally went on a shakedown cruise on Lake Washington on the delivery day.

As to warranty fixes, their were a few. The bulging fuel tanks were replaced free of charge and later on the new glass fronts and glassed in wood tie downs were installed. Scot installed a set of the floor boards and asked me to try them out. I did and several months later tried to pay for them and he declined, thanking me for testing them.
A bent window frame that was noticed after 3 years was replaced free of charge. A rear motorwell rail was installed and supplied free as they felt that it had taken to long to arrive. I also mentioned that I would like to have tramson tiedown brackets installed. Again no charge. They also upgraded the table fastening system for no charge. I did have several upgrades that I paid for, such as the new door catch and teak front cabinet doors and the conversion from ice box to shelves. The charges wer always reasonable.

Maybe I was the exception, but I seriously doubt it. For my money Scot Reynolds and his crew were more that fair to me. I still am proud to be a C-dory owner.

 

[Matt Gurnsey]

Yes, this has been thoroughly covered here. However, I had hoped that moving forward Sea Sport would offer to address issues such as this to be repaired and billed equal to their expense.

Jon- do you currently have a problem that needs to be fixed? If not, how can you judge how Sea Sport may or may not handle your issue when you don't have one yet?

I feel that some people are looking for a problem where none actually exists.

At such time as you have a problem, that can be addressed then.

I agree that the title of this topic is a bit inflammatory and misleading.

 

[YACD]

I feel that some people are looking for a problem where none actually exists.

At such time as you have a problem, that can be addressed then.

Matt:

When I bought my boat it had a form of hull insurance called a hull warranty. The warranty was meant to exist for a number of years which have still not expired. I paid for the "insurance". Now it is taken away. I have no insurance. It is unlikely that I will ever need it but that's not the point. You don't expect to *ever* need insurance but you buy it anyhow. Your suggestion could be construed to mean that I should wait until my hull delaminates and only then call the "insurance company" to see if I am covered. Maybe I want to know ahead of time that I am covered - right now I know that we are not covered, but that doesn't prevent me and others from complaining about our loss and pointing out the inequity of it.

I think that the argument that "it's a business and they do what they have to do to stay alive" can be used to justify almost any heinous act. I don't actually know why seasport dropped the hull coverage. Probably because they thought they could get away with it. Maybe they didn't bargain for the rather loud protests which have emanated from our wonderful web site. Perhaps next time they have to make a "business decision" they will remember what happened on this occasion and be more thoughtful. And who knows, they may even weigh the moral issues more heavily in their thinking.

 

[Da Nag]

At such time as you have a problem, that can be addressed then.

Every owner of a Reynolds/Fluid C-Dory less than 5 years old, has a problem.

To what degree one is impacted by the loss of warranty, is dictated by circumstance and/or opinion. Neither of which eliminate the fact that a problem exists; they only determine the degree to which one might be concerned.

 

[mshepherd]

I have to disagree with people that claim all Fluid sold them was the molds to build the boats. Does that mean they paid less or more than they would if they purchased the company and honored warranties? I believe they bought much more than the molds, they bought a brand and customer base. I honestly don't care about the warranty because my boat is a 93', but I think it hurts the brand and customer base not honor the warranties.

 

[ramos]

Matt,
No, I do not have a problem at this time.

My judgement (i think opinion would be a better word) is based on Surfbirds' initial post.

I'm not looking for a problem, just sharing my thoughts on Surfbirds' situation.

Personally, I think it is wise to see how current issues are being handled so I can avoid possible but unlikely problems in the future.

 

[forrest]

First as a point of interest, I thought Reynolds and Fluid Marine were the same outfit minus Scot Reynolds. Aren't they essentially the same people?
Second have any of you lawyer types that are C-brats looked into the sale to Seasport? Maybe Fluid/Reynolds are minority owners. Maybe Fluid/Reynolds get a percentage of all future sales of C-Dorys. Maybe you Brats that lost your warranty could get a class action lawsuit against any future profit going to the previous owners since they were the ones with which you had the warranties with. A portion of future proceeds due Fluid/Reynolds could go into a fund to cover your warranties as needed with any unused portion being returned to the previous owners after the warranties expire. I have no knowledge of business law. I have no knowledge of the deal between Fluid/Reynolds and Seasport. I have no dog in this fight. I'm just throwing out an idea.
Forrest

 

[akroyd]

I have no dog in this fight either. In fact, I do not even own a C-Dory although have been looking to purchase the right one for a couple months. During that time I have enjoyed the wealth of information on this site and developed a respect for the knowledge, willingness to share, and product loyalty of those who frequent this place. If there exists a true value in the C-Dory name it is exemplified by the enthusiastic owners present here. I personally find it somewhat troubling in this time of warranty questions and uncertainty as to the motives of the new C-Dory management and ownership that the first posting from those new owners in a while seeks advice on the all-important question as to whether or not the seats should be embroidered. Reminds me a bit of the old line " other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" When I purchase my first C-Dory it will not be a new one built by Sea Sport although I considered it. This is not due to their warranty decision but more to the manner with which they communicated with those potentially impacted by that decision. That response did not inspire confidence in this potential buyer. I hope in the future I am proven wrong.

 

[Levitation]

I've been trying to stay out of this bash, but like falling through the event horizon of a massive black hole, I am pulled like taffy..
I have been in and out of businesses all my adult life - and lost my butt along the way... In the process I have learned a lot - 'they' say that education is only worth what you paid for it and I find 'they' are right... On a dollar for dollar basis, by now I should be a friggin genius...

Boat builders are in crises... Hundreds of US boat makers have gone belly up over the past two years... The biggest boat conglomerate in the world, Brunswick, is in bankruptcy... C-Dory was no different...
If the new owners of the name had to take on warranty claims, they could not have purchased in the first place; period... And we would not be having this discussion... Go to the classified ads in the boat trades magazines and look at the folks trying to unload their boat building designs/business... No one is buying because the market is crashed and warranty claims will bankrupt you before you get the first new hull out of the mold...

Now, you (whomever) might desperately want for Sea Sport to warranty your C-Dory hull/boat... I desperately want SATURN to warranty the vehicles they sold me as promised - ain't gonna happen, jack! So, to say you won't buy a new Sea Sport produced C-Dory because they won't warranty boats they never produced shows a serious disconnect between emotion and reality...

Now, I have to decide whether to actually post this or not... I normally do not criticize...

 

[YACD]

If the new owners of the name had to take on warranty claims, they could not have purchased in the first place; period... .

Do you have direct evidence of this or is it just your best guess based on the state of the boat business?

 

[Sawdust]

Never critize either, Denny-o. BTDT so many times. Manufacturer, dealer, and big time user. You are spot on, and life goes on. With Brunswick et al down the tube it took a lot of courage for Sea Sport to step in. They have built good boats for years and their sales show their quality. Sure do wish them well, and without a doubt when/if they start building C-Dory boats, they will be darned good competitive boats.

Warranty? What's that. :wink:

Dusty

 

[jhwilson]

... Fluid Marine never asked if they built the boat when warranty issues arose, even though they also made an "asset only" purchase. For all the faults of the Reynolds era, there are numerous reports of them providing great customer support for boats out of warranty, and/or built by the Tolands. I'm not naive enough to believe the previous two owners did any of this wholly out of the goodness of their hearts; they obviously recognized what an integral part of their success we were, and knew that keeping us happy was a mutually beneficial decision...

All true, but look what happened to both Reynolds and Fluid. Maybe that is not the model for SeaSport to follow speaking strictly from a business perspective.

I am thankful that a quality company like SeaSport bought whatever was included in their C-Dory purchase and wish them well. Of the many alternatives that come to mind, by far most are inferior. I say give them a chance to get their feet on the ground with C-Dory, they may be more amenable to deal with hull issues than their blanket warranty policy would indicate.

While we may logically voice disagreement with the SeaSport business plan (and I don't have near enough information to begin to do that) I don't think we are justified to say that SeaSport has treated us unfairly or harmed us in any way.

Like Da Nag said this forum is one of the primary reasons for my interest in and purchase of a C-Dory and why I would consider a future purchase from SeaSport as long as they retain the quality.

Harper

 

[matt_unique]

If the new owners of the name had to take on warranty claims, they could not have purchased in the first place; period... .

Do you have direct evidence of this or is it just your best guess based on the state of the boat business?

To your point, none of us are privy to the warranty costs and have no idea if they had anything to do with Fluid or Reynolds selling the business.

Why would Sea Sport want to continue using the C-Dory name if the existing boats were junk that required too high a warranty liability? We all know the boats are not junk and it is my opinion the incremental cost of honoring warranties is less than the costs associated with the decision not to cover warranty claims. Not that we will ever know, but it has been my 'opinion' from the start that the cost of abandoning current owners and dealers (with inventory) will be greater (in terms of lost sales) than the cost of honoring warranties.

 

[Matt Gurnsey]

....I should wait until my hull delaminates and only then call the "insurance company" to see if I am covered. Maybe I want to know ahead of time that I am covered - right now I know that we are not covered, but that doesn't prevent me and others from complaining about our loss and pointing out the inequity of it.

I think that the argument that "it's a business and they do what they have to do to stay alive" can be used to justify almost any heinous act. I don't actually know why seasport dropped the hull coverage. Probably because they thought they could get away with it. Maybe they didn't bargain for the rather loud protests which have emanated from our wonderful web site. Perhaps next time they have to make a "business decision" they will remember what happened on this occasion and be more thoughtful. And who knows, they may even weigh the moral issues more heavily in their thinking.

Wow.

Heinous act? Moral issues? "get away with it"?

Sea Sport did not drop your hull warranty. Fluid Marine / Reynolds did.

It sounds like you are implying that Sea Sport in buying C-Dory molds was twirling their mustaches, swinging their black capes and figuring out some dastardly way to cheat you out of something that they had nothing to do with.

I'm not sure it's fair to make judgements about people, their business practices and motives that one doesn't know. This business is tough right now, and many of us are struggling to just get by, pay the bills and eat out top ramen at the end of the day.

Many of us in this business can't afford the products we sell. But we love what we do, so we stick it out.

I'm not privy to all the particulars in the Sea Sport aquisition of the C-Dory molds and names. I don't know if they paid any money at all, or if Fluid was just glad to get out from under a HUGE monthly bill for their manufacturing space.

I do know there was another manufacturer interested in the C-Dory product 6 months before the Sea Sport deal happened. Fluid wasn't interested in selling at that point, intended to stay in the boat building business.

I also know that if that manufacturer had gotten the molds and name, that C-Dory would not exist today, and that there isn't a reputable dealer who would touch them. Quality would have been a joke. Would that have been preferable? Ask a Shamrock owner.

This series of events has negatively affected those of us with boats in stock cumulatively, as we will lose money on the sale of the boats (plural)in stock compared to what they would have sold for. Plus we will be expected to cover many warranty items out of own pocket. It may drive some dealers out of business. But it is what it is. We're dealing with it.

If / When you have an issue (and the odds are you won't) you can contact the dealer you bought the boat from, and see what help they may provide. While they don't have any obligation to honor Fluid or Reynold's warranty, Sea Sport may be willing to offer assistance. From my dealings with them, they appear to be good guys with the best of intentions trying to make the best decisions they can in a very uncertain time for this industry.

I suppose an alternative would be to sell your boat, and buy something else that would have a warranty, and hope that builder doesn't go out of business.

I aplogize if my tone sounds harsh, but this dead horse has been beat for the last few months. I'm sorry that those with boats less than 5 years old don't have a full factory warranty. But the continual venting is not going to change anything, and might, in fact damage the brand significantly, causing dealers to question whether they want to continue with it, and muddy the waters and scare of potential buyers. The end result could be the devaluation of the boats that you all love so dearly.

 

[Dreamer]

Matt,

Well put. I couldn't agree more. Having met the Sea Sport management team at Bellingham, my guess is that someone with a real serious warranty problem, rather than an imagined one, would get more help than they imagine. Just a feeling I got.

 

[Dory-Ling]

Ve mentioned this previously, whilst the flesh of this dead horse was not so putrid; too much spoiling attitudes here! Move some where where your dealer net work has a total of ONE and who has a stellar reputation for NON service and this will become non issue for many of you! Ve still have 1 year warranty left on our beloved boat, woopy, hopefully still have a couple years left on the dog too! That dog by the way is worth a lot more to me than the warranty paper!
Said this before too, go use that boat and quit complaining, if you are not handy enough to fix small problems maybe you should be! Come back with question's about how to do this or that, it's way more interesting.
Martin

 

[Chester]

Matt Gurnsey, thanks for the reality checks. I too don't understand the guilty verdicts. Where is the evidence?