C Dory 25 transom

Or, is this just LIFE - REALITY? Nothing is perfect. Having a manufacturer willing and anxious to make the customer happy is a pretty good deal.
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We all agree with that. Stuff happens now and then. Good companies fix it quickly the first time and live goes on.

But this does not look like a minor quality control problem limited to one hull. It looks like a significant design failure. This isn't a "they promised me 4 batteries, but delivered with 3 and then fixed it" kind of problem. This is a transom design that appears destined for structural failure.

In addition, the public factory response of marketing-speak happy talk does not inspire confidence. Don't tell us that you're great. Don't tell us that you're better than the other guys. Show us.
 
M1911,

My name is John. It is usually listed at the end of my posts. To me, your name is a mystery. Perhaps I missed it.

Aplogize at the site of an auto accident? Yes, I'm sure liability insurers suggest that move. The back of my auto accident insurance card warns to not apologize for anything.

The "apology" laws in medicine are a recent, spotty, change. The laws absolve apologizing persons from court action due to info in the apology. That is why doctors are now ALLOWED by liability insurance to give limited apologies in limited circumstances.

I think boat owners mainly want the problem fixed or avoided and I think anyone with this type of concern should contact the factory and deal with them PERSONALLY, in one-on-one, direct fashion.

You, who does not even display his name, are asking a manufacturer to issue a broad apology for an unknown span of manufacturing, to an unknown group of persons all over the world.


John
 
My name is Jared. That should clear up all the mystery :roll:

Goodness gracious.

As for apologizing at the site of a minor auto accident, actually, yes I have done so at one time in a minor accident when I was clearly at fault. On another occasion when the other driver was at fault, he admitted fault on the spot and apologized to me. Neither resulted in any lawsuits.

I'm well aware of liability and risk reduction, having attended seminars given by this organization in a previous life: http://www.asfe.org/about/index.cfm?ac=history&mid=70

Yes, the conservative, old-school corporate approach is for the factory to not say anything publicly.

Photographs are posted here that appear to show significant design problems and the factory response here is "we're great!" Doesn't that give you the least bit of cognitive dissonance?
 
"Broad Sweeping Statements" :?:

Looks like the statement "this does not look like a minor quality control problem limited to one hull. It looks like a significant design failure. This is a transom design that appears destined for structural failure" is a pretty "broad" "sweeping" statement to me. :roll:

Before we condemn all the 25's and their transoms, lets find out how widespread the problem is. There's lots of them out there and this is the only one that I can recall having this kind of problem. Are there others?

Charlile
 
Jared...

There is a question of timing, and, perhaps intent, unsolved as relates to the marketing talk you mention. I think we all know how very large corporations' marketing departments work. It would not be surprising to see a similar tint to a smaller corporation's marketing division. To me, the marketing is just that, and the key concern at hand is the hull.

My relationship with C-Dory, so far, indicates the bulk of the ppl up there are doing their very best to manufacture and equip a high quality product.

The statement you mention seems to have been made recently, and likely reflects the current situarion. However, I am guessing a company would commonly make such statements which they feel represent their effort at any stage.

While the factory may know when an actual engineering drawing was changed, they may not know when a particular assembler left a void. So, I am guessing the company does not at this time know the exact span of voids, lack of glass cloth, or plywood extension. Perhaps a non-destructive evaluation, such as low power portable x-ray, could determine each transom's current condition.

Warranty wise, even my Monaco Coach motorhome has a warrany limited to TWO owners, i.e., the second owner is covered, but not the third. Like you others, I think C-Dory would be in better stead by a simple, non-restrictive hull warranty as it relates to owners.

I stronglyt feel like the point has been made relating to this particular boat's shortcomings and the continuing diatribe is disproportionate to the extent of the number of hulls known to be involved as well as not very productive in the long term solution.

John
 
Charlie - there was a thread somewhere here about a number of CD25s where we all noticed cracks in in the splashwell or transom gelcoat all about the same time. As Bob points out, what was repaired? Fixing gelcoat does not repair an underlying structural problem. At this point, I do not know whether I have an underlying problem or not.


Captains Choice":5u10dc78 said:
Before we condemn all the 25's and their transoms, lets find out how widespread the problem is. There's lots of them out there and this is the only one that I can recall having this kind of problem. Are there others?

Charlile
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Is an Orca's transom a better transom?

During the lay-up, the transom receives six layers of hull fiberglass, two inches of 20-pound foam, four layers of liner fiberglass, and a molded engine compartment and knee-brace unit that is fiberglassed into the hull configuration, giving it the strength to handle truly fierce conditions."
- Trailer Boats Magazine
 
First, let me say I have a great deal of respect for Bob Austin. He could be the most knowledgeable person on this site about boat construction and repair.

Now that that is out of the way, let me point out, some of his observations/suppositions could be wrong. At times, I believe he goes into too much detail about minor problems that readers assume are major boat sinking problems and it ends up scaring people. However I am not saying that is the case of the transom defects.

You have to realize some of his comments are his opinion and he will defend his point but that does not make them right. An example is in this thread half way down when ActiveCaptian tried to explain his process of Gel-Coating and that maybe others should consider it. Bob disagreed with him. When I extended my hull, I applied gel coat similar to the way ActiveCaptian described. Those of you that are curious about the quality can look at it, at the Bellingham CBGT or contact me and look at the boat in Olympia, WA.

That said I still consider Bob as an expert when it comes to boat construction/repair and I have a lot of respect for someone that is sure of himself, is willing to help others and is always a gentleman, which Bob seems to be.

I do believe these threads are good but you have to admit some of the comments are over the top and I believe some post are designed just to stir things up.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Hi all,

Another perspective on all this is that Dr. Bob of Thataway, after having dissected and restored all facets of his TomCat 255 by C-Dory, plunked down $30,000 plus shipping, trailer, taxes, etc., for a CD25 whose condition was pretty well known to him. And those of us who've bought and restored boats in such condition well know greater surprises damage-wise are usually in store in these situations.

Apparently Dr.Bob had enough confidence in the C-Dory product that he decided to invest in another one, knowing what was likely to ensue.

John
 
Wow there is lot's of information on this thread. I'm one of the potential new C-25 owners and I'm concerned about the transom construction and proper sealing of external core intrusions.

It says A LOT that company reps are responding to this thread. What ultimately matters however is the resolution. If they came back with something like...

"hulls #30 - #110 were made incorrectly, return to your dealer for the following repair with our apology, etc." it would show ultimate customer service.

To add to that "beginning with hull #111 we started doing the following.." and show pictures of the difference in construction between hull#110 and hull #111.

I would not have confidence in buying a C-Dory boat with anything short of complete disclosure, a remedy for those who purchased a boat with the problems referenced above, and proof that the production and QC process was changed to address it. I'm not trying to jump on any sort of negative bandwagon, I'm just a potential new consumer talking about business and customer service.

--Matt
 
There are some good points made above. I do post items in detail, because I hope that it will prevent others from having problems in the future. In the past I have posted some detailed photos in the album and then taken about half of them out to get away from too much detail.

No, I have absolutely no regreats about buying this boat. In fact it probably saved my life. If I had not purchased the boat and had the increased angina, there is a very good chance I would have had a fatal heart attack in Alaska. I am not complaining about it--and I have made this clear a number of times. I also fully acknowlege that we all may have our differences as to what is the correct way to do things. I try and base my answers and observations on what I have found, or others who I respect have found works the best.

I got to thinking last night when I first worked with fiberglass. It was in 1950. I was at Camp Fox, Catalina Island, and part of my job was repairing the wooden skiffs which the camp owned. Glaspar brought eight 12 foot fiberglass boats to see how they would hold up to YMCA campers abuse on the rocky beach. They also left several gallons of polyester resin, a few small bottles of Catalyst and some glass mat/cloth. I repaired a few holes and cracks in these boats. I have also been involved with laminate studies in boats, along with a friend who owned a non destructive testing company. We cut up 20 boats a year and a half ago to do testing on. Many of these had cores which we disected both with ultrasound and manually to varify any defects.

Yes, some people have magnified what I wrote--about transoms falling off, etc. On the other hand, I have lived thru replacement of an entire transom on a Grady White. Not a pretty sight--and the crack which caused this delamination and disentegration was almost identical to what was present on Frequent Sea. I also had a transom fail on an inflatable and found myself hand holding a 25 hp outboard, attatched only to the bottom fabric. Truely an interesting experience, in 2 foot seas and 30 knots of wind.

I have also made it clear that C Dory has said they would stand behind the transom repairs, They would stand behind the deck only if the fuel tank was leaking. There are fumes, which I have to assume are from the seal around the sender. (not yet replaced) No gasoline has been found in the bilge even when the tank was full. We removed all of the fuel we could before working on the boat--we got about 80 gallons out of the tank.

I made the comments about aluminum tanks, because I am truely concerned about potential problems in the future. Although the C Dory 25 tank will be farily easy to replace, it still is not a "fun" or cheap project.

The work on Frequent Sea is almost completed. The transom repair and final color match along with compounding and waxing the upper part of the deck house should be finished on Saturday. Frankly the hull of the boat looks like new after a good wax job.

I have only recieved one post from the C Dory factory--and that was after I sent a lengthy E mail to John Hoffman last evening--linking to both my "Thataway" thread and the "Thataway Album". This is the response: which I interput as generic, since it did not include my name.

"I sincerely appreciate your feedback and your comments and suggestions
are being considered and implemented. We rely on good feedback from our
knowledgeable customers in our ongoing efforts regarding quality
improvement and appreciate your continued support as a C-Dory owner.

John Hoffmann
Chief Financial Officer
C-Dory Marine Group"
 
Very interesting thread and since I have hull #26 (just 4 away from Bob's) I thought that I would comment. This is kind of like finding out that your family has a hereditary health problem that you never knew about before. You're not sure you're happy to find it out, but you might want to get checked out.

My boat was manufactured in Monroe and I assume that Bob's boat was also manufactured in Monroe. The people there were nice and I knew them by name. However, I believe they built the boat under discussion. If there were improper construction techniques or materials, they came from the Monroe plant, not the Auburn plant.

I'm neither a cheerleader for C-Dory or a detractor. I had some initial problems that were corrected by C-Dory. The cockpit deck was removed and the plastic fuel tank was replaced by an aluminum tank under warranty within the first year. I wish I knew what was under the aluminum tank. I've tried to keep that area dry, but some water does get under the tank. I had other changes (non-warranty) that I wanted to have C-Dory do to the boat hull but they were disinterested even though I wanted to pay for the work because I hadn't bought the boat from the factory.

I was never impressed that C-Dory sold boats when they had dealers in the area. It seemed like a conflict of interest with their dealers and also divided their customers into those that they wanted to service and those that they thought should deal with their dealer. I'm sorry for those that bought boats from the factory and had to change to a dealer, but I think it is better business for C-Dory to build the boats and let their dealers sell and service the boats.

Bob's boat and my boat are 4 apart in the build schedule but I haven't had any of the transom cracks or floor cracks that have been mentioned here. My boat has been in dry storage for it's entire life and has had a camper cover on the back for about 1/2 of it's life. I think that has spared it from most water intrusion problems. My deck hatches do leak some and I'm now sure that the screws and hatches haven't been properly bedded. I'll be attending to that problem as soon as possible.

Since I have a growing small business, I probably cut C-Dory a little more slack than some others might. I know how difficult it is to create a complex product and get it to market without some problems. I think that they have had some growing pains. They bought a company that built a simply designed boat that had a cult following. They have brought on new models and increased production very rapidly in order to market to a larger customer base.

The C-Brats is a wonderful site for owners and others because of the open feedback on our boats and adventures. For C-Dory it must be something of a blessing and a curse. They've been blessed with a lot of great publicity, but when this kind of topic comes up it must be very difficult to get out in front of it and satisfy our demanding group. I hope that management finds a way to solve this problem before it creates any more controversy.
Lyle
 
Lyle,
Thanks for the information--I think that if the boat is kept dry, that there should be no problems with the cockpit. I am not sure what was done when the cockpit deck was replaced at tank renewal time. One might want to be sure that the edges which were cut to pull and replace the tank are sealed properly (and this is not just silicone sealer). Especially if you keep salt water away from the aluminum (not sure what alloy is used in these tanks). On Frequent Sea, one has to really tip up the bow on the trailer to get that area under the tank to drain.

If I was concenred, I probably would put some re-inforcing glass (2 to 3 layers of biaxial around the aft outside and under part of the splash pan/outboard well. Use thickened epoxy to hold the glass on the under side in place (one can use supports wedged in place with release fabric or waxed paper to support this as an alternative).

I have pulled a couple of photos and replaced them with annotated photos. Hopefully this will show where the cores are, and a bit more about the transom. It is very easy to explain when looking at the boat, but difficult when using photos and writing.
 
Beautifully said, Lyle. As a potential C-Dory buyer myself, I am following these discussions closely. The thing I like best about this forum is that when these controversies arise we always are able to achieve an equilibrium and arrive at a rational picture of the issue at hand. Don't despair, this one will work itself to a constructive conclusion. I suspect that C-Dory is doing their research behind the scenes and will report back at the appropriate time.
 
Let's see; our first assumption is that we are all honest people. Bob has explained what he has seen, and posted pictures. Some people have had cracks at the corners of the transom (Pat Anderson, for example.) The factory does a good job, and stands behind their product.

Now what we need is a statement from the factory which would defuse the problem. They're the experts. What do they think about this specific problem? Would they mind calming us all down?

Thanks, Boris
 
I think the important message so far is that, if you have problems, you contact C-Dory and they, so far, have either fixed the problem or paid someone else to fix the problem, and that serious transom defects appear to be rare.

John
 
I suspect that this transom problem affects all of the boats of this vintage. (CD 25 2002-2005?) If you have any cracks, get them fixed. Have it done properly. That means a rebuild of some of the transom area--not just filling with "bondo" or gel coat for the cracks.

Basically the the spash well needs to be re-inforced at the corners. The top of the transom, opened, and filled with glass and epoxy. The bottom or any wet or rotted areas need to be opened and repaired, by filling with solid glass.

There is also the consideration that these boats are coming close to the 5 year age, when hull warantees are out.
 
I think a good way to prevent the possiblity of water intrusion into the transom when installing transducers is to not drill holes below the water line. I used two long 1/4-20 bolts, one through the transom near the top and the next about 2 inches above the water line in a vertical line. These bolts have nuts and washers on them and stick out the back about 2 inches. A 4 inch wide piece of plastic, Starboard would do, is mounted with it's bottom flush with the bottom of the hull and the transducers mounted on this. The plastic is relieved for the nuts so it is against the hull.

This method also allows you to remove the transducers while the boat is in the water if there is need to change or clean the transducers.

Hope this is useful Ed
 
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