Bulging Fuel Tanks

Adeline:

Several possible causes for fuel tank distortion come to mind, and there might be more. All causes must have one thing in common: the application of force to the sides of the tank. Possibilities are (1) gravitational force as the gasoline tries to push out the sides of the tank, (2) thermal expansive forces resulting from temperature differentials between the inside and outside surfaces of the tank, (3) “curing” of the tank over time as volatiles escape and cause the edges to contract, and the enclosed sides to bulge in or out, and (4) “curing” which results in the inner and outer surfaces of the sides being of different lengths, and the side bulging toward the longer of the surfaces. (2) and (4) are similar in that they both result from different lengths of the inside and outside surfaces, much like the distortion in a wall thermostat coil.

You could check for gravitational and thermal causes by filling the tanks with water from your hot water heater. You should look for thermal distortion within a few minutes of filling the tanks, since thermal forces from hot water will diminish as the water cools to ambient room temperature.

Given the rather thick walls of the plastic tanks, and the fact that the sides sometimes distort inward, I’m doubtful that gravitational or thermal forces are at play.

The only way to check for “curing” causes of distortion is to let the tank sit for an extended time, preferably while full of gasoline. On the assumption you want to use your boat, why don’t you just go ahead and install the tanks, keep them full when you’re not cruising, and wait to see if there’s any distortion? If the sides bulge in, the only consequence is a reduction of the amount of gasoline the tank will hold. If the sides bulge out, you might pick up a little capacity, but will also have the possibility of the distortion causing the tank to move and put additional lateral force on the mounts.

Since you plan to use angle retainers along the front and inside lower edges (seems like a good idea to me), the only outward bulges which would tend to make the tanks move against the mounts would be those occurring on the rear or outboard sides. You could accommodate this possibility by installing a strip of one-half inch starboard between the angle sections, and the sides of the tank. The starboard could be the same size as the vertical face of the corresponding section of angle. If the tank distorts and tries to push out against the mounts, pull the corresponding starboard strip, shave a little off one side to compensate for the movement of the tank, and put the strip back in place.

Once everything stabilizes, secure the starboard permanently as follows: remove the strips, insert a temporary metal backing plate between the angle and tank, and drill a hole through the angle toward the tank properly sized to clear a number 8 or 10 screw. Repeat at another location on the same angle. Then, remove the metal backing plate, insert the strip, and put screws through the holes in the angle, and into the starboard. The trick here is to be sure to use a backing plate so you don’t drill a hole in the tank, and make sure the screws are short enough so that they don’t go through the starboard, into the tank.

I’d be inclined to secure the starboard strips as indicated right from the start, and cut or grind the tips of the screws as necessary to match any shaving I did to the starboard to compensate for actual expansion. That way, you don’t run the risk of the starboard sliding out of place, and the tanks moving around and knocking the angle mounts loose, while you’re waiting to see if the tanks distort.

I’d also highly recommend a thrust block, as detailed in previous posts on this subject, to help keep the tanks from moving side to side.

Let me know if I’ve confused you, or if I can be of further help.

Alma's Only
 
Adeline":384d882t said:
Hi All, Especially Alma's Only and Cavu, I'm preparing to install my new 25 gallon tanks and have some questions.

My experience with a similar upgrade on the TyBoo22 was that putting the new tanks in isn't a problem at all. It's when you remove them sometime down the road and try to get the cleats back into place. I think A.O.'s advice will do you up good. A shim between the anchor and the tank that can be resized the next time the tanks are out is an excellent plan. Then let them distort all they want (we're only talking a small fraction of an inch here), and know that the next time you take them out, the fix for the cleats is simple and requires no messing around with the holes in the floor. If you don't want to screw the shim in, a couple spot dabs of 3M 5200 will hold it in place just fine.

It is kind of strange that those heavy walled tanks would bulge as much as they do. But every container of liquid wants to be round by nature. A circle provides the largest area of any shape with a like perimeter dimension. (Oh no - if I got this physics statement wrong, Sea Wolf will be all over it!) Otherwise we would have square pipes, and millwrights could be plumbers.
 
I'm actually a little concerned about installing them when it's 40 or 50 degrees and knowing that this summer it'll be 90-100. Picture those tanks all filled up at those temperatures. They're going to be at maximum bulge. It's difficult to plan for such a change in dimensions.
 
Adeline,

How about an experiment?

Measure across the bottom of the tanks front to back and side to side. Mark the tank where you measured.

Warm up the tanks to summer temp and measure again.

Not too scientific, but its free and might tell you something.
 
I'm just curious--
How does one go about warming a couple of 25-gallon tanks up to summer temperatures? The last time I shoehorned something that size into our oven, my wife told me it was usual practice to peel the cow before cooking it. Who knew? Bruce Holly
P.S. My 20 gallon tanks did the bulge thing after I installed them last year about this time of year (see the previous thread(s) about my vale of tears on this project) but not so seriously that I couldn't readjust things by loosening and then tightening the straps again. "Course, I come out of the "if it runs with duct tape, it's a good fix" school, and God loves fools, apparently, because He seems to love me.
 
Bearth,

I would put them under the kitchen table,(or a sheet of ply on two saw horses) drape a tarp over the table and heat with a small electric heater. :smile

Be careful not to start a fire!! :smileo
 
Am I mssing something here or wouldn't it be possible to simply put the bolts in the floor point upwards and the put slots in the retaining brackets so they can be moved forward and backward to accomodate any expansion? With a lock washer under each nut that holds the retaining bracket down, "unplanned" movement should be zero...

Roger in the SeaDNA
 
Roger,
That is the route I went, although I didn't think about slotted holes in the cleat to allow for adjustment. I like it! I posted a couple of pix in CAVU's album of the bolts. They seem very strong and I think they will do the job.
 
Mike-

Quote:

"It is kind of strange that those heavy walled tanks would bulge as much as they do. But every container of liquid wants to be round by nature. A circle provides the largest area of any shape with a like perimeter dimension. (Oh no - if I got this physics statement wrong, Sea Wolf will be all over it!) Otherwise we would have square pipes, and millwrights could be plumbers."

Grade = A. CONGRATULATIONS!

Right you are!!! Pressure in a liquid flows out equally in a liquid or gas and results in rounded shapes: circles in two dimensions and spheres in three.

This also explains why our brains are encased in spherical skulls, namely, so that more nerve cells can be packed in a smaller space, making for the miracle of human intelligence!

It also explains, after a few years of time passing, why some people seem to have lost a good part of their original God given cranial content, since liquids like to flow downward under the influence of gravity, and hence the term "Brain Drain".

Over time, this phenomenon in turn accounts for the many "Senilor Moments" as we wander down that golden road to geezerhood, and thus why we all wind up as old gnarly farts joyously fiddling around in boats and passing time until called upon by our maker to take the final journey.

Thus in the end, it really makes no difference whether we were carpenters, plumbers, millwrights, teachers, or whatever, as we seem to finally wind up in basically the same boat! The important part is that we enjoy what time we have here on Earth, and doing your thing in the right boat can make all the difference! Enjoy your C-Dory!
 
Gee's, I love it:

"...as we wander down that golden road to geezerhood, and thus why we all wind up as old gnarly farts joyously fiddling around in boats..."

Priceless.

Thank you!

Casey
C-Dory Naknek
(50% Geezer; 50% Gnarly ... but getting There!)
 
Wow! I love it too. If only I could remember my name and sign this...er.... this what? Today's me day. 85! Wow .... soon catch up to Tyboo Mike.
 
Dusty-

85 and still messing around (in boats, that is)! I love it! Congratulations!!! You're the Role Model and the "Poster Child" of this wonderful community. Have a brew or two and enjoy yourself on this special day! Joe.
 
Sea Wolf":itzog45q said:
Mike-

Quote:

"It is kind of strange that those heavy walled tanks would bulge as much as they do. But every container of liquid wants to be round by nature. A circle provides the largest area of any shape with a like perimeter dimension. (Oh no - if I got this physics statement wrong, Sea Wolf will be all over it!) Otherwise we would have square pipes, and millwrights could be plumbers."

Grade = A. CONGRATULATIONS!

Right you are!!! Pressure in a liquid flows out equally in a liquid or gas and results in rounded shapes: circles in two dimensions and spheres in three.

This also explains why our brains are encased in spherical skulls, namely, so that more nerve cells can be packed in a smaller space, making for the miracle of human intelligence!

It also explains, after a few years of time passing, why some people seem to have lost a good part of their original God given cranial content, since liquids like to flow downward under the influence of gravity, and hence the term "Brain Drain". <text clipped>

Might also explain why so many of our bodies seem to take on more circular shapes as we get older.... I'd much rather blame in on physics than a lack of exercise combined with a lack of self control....

Roger on the SeaDNA
 
My new 25 gal tanks rolled in so its time to decide how I want to do the cleat/retainer treatment for them.

Lateral cleats will be mounted on the underside of the splashwell and bear on the top edge of the tanks.

For the front cleats I will use either plan A, which is to epoxy SS bolts in the floor and in doing so enlarge the cavity sufficiently to accept a generous amount of epoxy and thereby (hopefully) enhance the strength and holding base for the bolts. Pretty much as Ken on Cavu did, except I plan on using stainless angle for the cleats as opposed to the starboard material.

Or....... epoxy threaded inserts in the cockpit floor, here again, within an enlarged cavity, and using ss bolts to secure the stainless steel cleats to the cockpit floor. This latter option may be rendered moot if I'm unable to come up with adequate threaded SS inserts. I'm ready to pretty much guarrantee there is nothing of the kind available in lovely Fairbanks, AK, as I think I've exhausted the local possibilities.

I do have the luxury of a little time however, as it is still too cool to mess with epoxy outside.
 
Maybe there has been a tank failure and the poor SOB never lived long enough to tell anyone about it. :clock I shudder at the thought of that fuel getting loose in the cockpit. I have noticed the bulge in my tanks and the first screws in the front startboard have kinda pulled. If they bulge at rest they must really flex in and out when you hit rough water. The front starboard seems like more of a protector of the front of the tanks than any real solid mount. Has anybody used a buckle strap going around the circumfrence of the tanks? One of those small ratchet straps would really pull up tight. Seems like getting this good and tight when the tank is near empty would help stemmy the outward expansion of the tank without a modification to the boat.
 
I seem to recall that the bulging in plastic tanks is not caused by the weight of gas in the tank, but it is caused by a reaction of the tank with gasoline.

Greg (Red Fox) installed plastic tanks made by another manufacturer and the instructions said to alow for 10% expansion.

Does anyone know if the bulges come and go with the amount of gas in the tank?

Has anyone had to reposition the cleats more than once due to bulging?
 
My feeling is that there is going to be some bulging and expansion on the standard C-Dory tanks, whether they are the older 20 gal tanks or the new 25 gal tanks. Hopefully, it will be less with the new tanks. That doesn't bother me and I don't feel it is a big problem. A little space can be allowed to accomodate that.

I do feel that the system for cleating and holding the tanks in place is one that can and should be improved. It is simply to much to expect the factory cleat system to hold up over time without problems of the cleats and screw upsetting and allowing water entry to the balsa core. If the tanks are removed for cleaning, access to the area, or replacement the problem is exacerbated, as the fiberglass is not receptive to a lot of
"screwing around" (no pun intended).

The only anchor we have for those screws is the relatively thin skin of fiberglass that makes up the cockpit floor. I don't know if it would be possible to mold in a solid band of glass across the cockpit floor where the cleats are or not, but I look for some changes from C-Dory somewhere down the road as it seems like such an obvious need.

In the meantime has anyone used SS threaded inserts and bolts to anchor their cleats to the floor.
 
Back to the original topic (bulging tanks) with a new question.
When resetting the StarBoard onto the cockpit floor why drill new holes? These holes create an opening for water to enter the C-Dory's balsa core; water is to balsa core what kryptonite is to Superman. I would like to bond the starboard to the cockpit floor instead of drilling and using screws. Adhesive Methods and Technology Inc. claims their 7540AB adhesive will make a powerful bond between StarBoard and fiberglass. Using the shim method described in this thread would allow for any future adjustments in spacing between the permanent StarBoard and the tanks. Making the Starboard permanently attached to the cockpit floor will not interfere with removal of the tanks if removal is needed in the future. This sounds like a good fix but before I go this route please give your thoughts on the merits or hazards of this concept.
Mike 'Levity'
 
I seem to remember looking into that 7540AB "special adhesive" and the methodology included carefully flame treating the starboard. It didn't look that easy to get done right the first time, especially for an amateur.

Don
 
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