Bottom Damage...How bad is it?

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danhebl

New member
My buddy Jeff and I own a 1993 Angler. This past weekend was spent in Voyageurs National Park in northern Minnesota and southern Ontario. The trip was awesome with the huge exception of me running the boat up onto a barely submerged reef. This happened at about 5mph in the first 30 minutes of the trip. The links below show the damage. Tore off about 16" of brass, scraped keel down to fiberglass in multiple places and some wide scrapes on hull through the gel coat.

Links:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4IO2 ... VFN0w4amNB

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4IO2 ... pkMzJ5WUlF

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4IO2 ... wxRGRQRi13


I don't think that the balsa core has been compromised but any opinions/concerns are welcome. Also, very open to recommendations on how to repair. Because I own the boat with someone else (He has been very forgiving by the way) I feel the need for it to look nicer than most of the work I usually do on things. My experience with epoxy/fiberglass to date has produced functional but not pretty work.

The boat spends its summers floating in the Knife River Marina on Lake Superior.

Thank You for any help you can provide.

Dan


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I've been to Rainy Lake once. The idea of seeing rock tops in several hundred feet of water scares me. I had the charts, but who says everything is charted? Although I have thought about going back sometime. But posts like yours adds to my fear factor... :? Jason, it doesn't take much to damage fiberglass. 5mph is actually plenty of speed. In fact, I did some serious damage to the front bow of an older Cabin Cruiser hitting a metal dock at only about 1 or 2 mph. (Long story, but short of it was Engine cut out before I could add reverse thrust with a tail wind. I was just coaxing the boat into a tight spot, and barely making way...)Colby
 
To me that damage looks pretty superficial. If the area is dry, I would just gelcoat over it. It is on the bottom of the boat and won't be visible to anyone.
 
The first picture suggests that there is some hollow in the internal "box" of the keel. Not surprising. There should be no balsa core damage, I agree it is all superficial. Nothing structural is damaged. But, I would do a lot more than gel coat it.

You want to grind out any damaged glass. Build that area up with mat and vinyl ester resin, and then fair it out with thickened resin, (cabosil, and high density filler.) The reason I suggest vinyl ester resin is because you are going to want to gel coat the bottom areas again. Vinyl ester is more resistant to water intrusion than polyester, will bond better (secondary bond) than epoxy, and still allow good gelcoat adherence. If the boat had bottom paint, then I would use epoxy.

The "brass strip--can be replaced with with a section of brass, or redo the entire strip with stainless steel. You want to be able to match the screw holes.

Avoid the temptation to just put some Marine Tex on it and go. If you were in the middle of doing a long trip, and no good repair materials, that might be acceptable. However, when cruising I carried "Splash Zone" epoxy or compound--with is a paste like two part under water cure epoxy. I have used it on a keel scrape like this at about 6 knots, where the boat (65,000#) hung up on an uncharted pinnacle rock in the Med. I put it in diving, shaped it, put wax paper, then cardboard, and tightened with rope Spanish Windlass around the entire boat..About 9 months later when I hauled, the epoxy had worked into all of the cracks--I ground it out and re-glassed anyway.

You are going have to buy a quart of that color epoxy (Cook Composits) (CCP) is the supplier. Perhaps call C Dory for the color used today--and pretty good chance it is the same...

Here is the application manual.
 
I would also sand/grind out to make sure to get to "good" glass - especially in that one area where it looks like there is a void. That may always have been there, but now that it's open I'd want to get back to solid material and then build it back up before fairing and re-gelcoating.

I'd love to take my boat to Voyageurs. Even with the repair - it'd be worth it!

PS: if you are looking at replacing the brass strip - and especially if you beach the boat at all - you might consider removing it, filling the screw holes with thickened epoxy, and then going back with a KeelShield or KeelGuard (purpose made rubber/plastic strips). One C-Dory dealer was even doing this from the get-go, and although my brass strip is fine, if I were choosing from scratch I would consider the rubber/plastic strip instead.

They do say it's not supposed to pass between a roller and the hull, but I don't know if you have one of those or how it would do "real world." For example I have a roller beneath the bow but there is not a lot of weight on it - I put it there mostly because otherwise if I secured the bow down to the trailer, there was just air beneath it and the bow would tend to move up and down slightly. So it's basically just resting there - not sure if that'd be a problem for the Keel products.
 
Sunbeam suggested:
That may always have been there, but now that it's open I'd want to get back to solid material and then build it back up before fairing and re-gelcoating.
Click to expand...

I believe that there is a very good chance that there is a void all down the length of the "keel". Are you suggesting that the entire keel be ground off and the made solid? The keel is part of the mold, and when glass is put into the mold before the balsa core is laid in, it is very likely that this is not filled with glass.

If you wanted to put some filler (vinyl ester resin and cabosil and high density filler) in this specific area, when open, that would be fine--and may even be necessary to get a good thickness of new glass. But I would not grind down to the next layer--which may be balsa, or one scrim layer before the balsa. I would like to see about 1/4" of glass over any void in the keel. There are ways to back this area with cardboard, with wire pulling it flat, then lay up glass against this backing plate. Cut off the wires after the first two layers catalyze, then build the rest of the laminate--in this area, it may be a good idea to use alternate layers of cloth or a layer of 1708 biaxial to give it a little more strength. I have purposefully added additional glass to this type of area on a boat where there will be potential high impact or wear.
 
thataway":2lngsmhn said:
I believe that there is a very good chance that there is a void all down the length of the "keel". Are you suggesting that the entire keel be ground off and the made solid?
Click to expand...

Oh heavens, no. Sounds like I'd better double-check my posts a bit more. I was basically agreeing with what you said (or what I thought you said) just before me. I even debated whether to post at all since you had already posted, but I know when I'm looking for my own solution I like to read multiple posts (even if they basically agree) because it's good to be able to gather a variety of responses and then form my own opinion based on them (and perhaps some side research).

I'll elaborate to make it more clear:

1) If there is a void down the whole keel that's not the best thing in the world, but it doesn't really hurt anything either. It's not structural, and it's sealed off from the world. (I had just posted some photos in another thread that show how they lay the core into the hull, and it's a flat sheet that looks to be well above the stub keel area.)

2) BUT, if you run aground and open up a "door" into that void? (Which it looks like may have happened from the photos.) Well then I'd want to "re-close" the door to that void so it's not open. I'd do that by sanding/grinding the damaged area back to good glass and then building it back up with a combination of resin/cloth and then fillers/fairing. I wouldn't expect it to end up being a huge area at all. Just enough to anchor the new material. But I wouldn't want a new "door" open to a void where water could collect. Just my opinion.

Sorry to the OP if it sounded like I wanted you to grind your whole keel off. I never meant to suggest that but apparently my post was a bit unclear. I'll presume you haven't started yet :wink:
 
Sorry for the delay but thanks for the input. We had the Marina do the work and insurance covered much of it. Doesn't look exactly like new but it will function like new on the water! Lake trout don't seem to notice as we are catching the same as always but not as many as we'd like.
 
Smart move having pros do the work. At least when you sell it, pretty or not, you can vouch for the safe functionality of the work when the next owner points out the not-pretty part of the boat. Any boat I see with "owner" glass repairs always is a put-off.
 
The professionals can do a great job - or not so much......You get where this goes and I really don't want to go there. With that said......I only see some grinding, epoxy to wet it, filler, gelcoat, and a good deal of time to get it to look perfect. There are a lot of people that don't have this level of patience on the gelcoat matching part. Or, really, any of it, because they want it done yesterday. But, the reality is, you can do as good of job as those guys that make things look so easy if you are willing.
 
And here I did resist going there! But now that you have... :lol:

I agree. I have seen very gorgeous and proper repair work by pros, and I've seen ill-informed, poorly done, sloppy work (sometimes covered up by pretty gelcoat) work also done by pros. Plus everything in between.

Same goes for owners' work.

danhebl: Glad to hear you are back on the water and catching fish :thup
 
I've been interested in forward-looking sonar for a while, but didn't know much about it. Still don't, but remain interested. Here's one article reviewing such products.

http://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/5-forward-looking-sonar-tested-29321

Might have saved this C-Brat from his encounter.

Back when my boat was floating I ran over some unyielding rocks in the Kentucky River. Main prop was trashed. I had to navigate back to the ramp with a transom-mounted tiller kicker depending on a bow-mounted wife to tell me where I was going; the cabin between me and my view of the river made it impossible from the transom. The existing downward-looking sonar, mounted to the transom, was not particularly helpful in this instance. Got me wondering about a forward-looking sonar before I knew they existed. A friend of my wife's calls his Capt. Crunch. Hopefully, I can afford something like this for the "new" boat.
 
Interesting article, which shows, that if your really want quality forward looking sonar, you are still gong to have to buy a $65,000 Furano retractable dome scanning sonar...

Even the best of these, only works reasonably well at slow speeds, in relatively shallow water. There are a number--which have been around for a few years, which work OK, as long as the object is no further out than the depth of the water, and you are not moving more than a few knots.

Eyeball navigation, and close attention to the charts actually is better--but for a couple of thousand bucks, you may get some slightly better information--if some eyes are glued to the scanner, with experience. Sorry to seem cynical, but I had hoped that some of the latest generation forward sounders would have done better, but it sounds as if they really don't...I had hoped that the Garmin Panoptic had promise, but it does not sound as if that is so... Unfortunately, schools of fish, thermoclines, salt/fresh interfaces, surface disturbance can all give false readings.

Hopefully --no more bad objects come your way!
 
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