Blue Sea Systems dual battery fuse issue

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CDory23

New member
I've decided to change my Perko switch to a blue sea systems Add a battery with an ACR. I like the idea of keeping both batteries on seperate circuits and not having to play with the switch to keep them both charged.

All of the wiring is pretty straight forward except.....The wire going from the positive terminals on House and cranking batteries to A and B side of the ACR is requiring a 75 amp fuse on the #6. I don't understand why this is necessary and more importantly I have never even heard and can't buy a 75 amp in line fuse at least at west marine where I bought the product.

For such a common and simple set up I must be misunderstanding something. Hopefully somebody can chime in on this.

Here the link to the wiring diagram with the wire size and fuse rating chart.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resourc ... 310020.pdf
 
How is your house bank fused currently? ABYC generally requires a fuse within 7" of the battery.

Most of us have a 60 amp (or so) circuit breaker which came from the factory.

I would be careful about having exposed terminals--again, with out a specific wiring diagram, or photos of what you have currently, it is difficult to know what is there now, and exactly what you propose.
 
This is a side note, but you may be interested in this information as you wire up the ACR. I also have a Blue Sea "On/off/combine" switch and an ACR. With the default wiring method, the ACR will draw a small parasitic load, even with the battery switch in the "off" position. I called Blue Sea and spoke to them about this, and they at first suggested I put a small switch in the ground wire to the ACR. I wasn't so keen on that because, to me, the whole point of the ACR/switch I was installing was to not have little "things" to remember, but instead to be able to switch off and have it be.... Off! So they gave me an alternative. This was to wire the two main wires from the ACR to the two "cold" sides of the battery switch (i.e. positions #1 and #1 opposite where the battery positives come in). This makes it so that when you switch to "off" there is no load on things from the ACR (without having to remember another switch).

At the moment, I'm using the ABYC "exception" and instead of fuses within 7" of the batteries I have the wires sheathed. However, I think that with our relatively small engine draws that I don't need to use this exception, and instead I think I will add Blue Sea battery fuses (they go right on the posts). The only reason I haven't done it yet is that I don't have room (but I will rearrange things). For now the runs are still quite short, and well protected, but it's not as good as a fuse.
 
Thataway, The current house bank doesn't seem to have a main fuse. I followed the #6 from the battery directly to a panel individually fused for electrical accesories (Radar,gps fishfinder, stereo etc.) That is then linked to the factory C'dory electrical control panel. This was a one owner boat that came wired from the factory....
 
Your screen make is C Dory 23- according to your other post on trailer you recently bought a C Dory 22. I assume that you have a C dory 22, and not a Cape Cruiser, or Venture C Dory 23. What year is your boat?

I've decided to change my Perko switch to a blue sea systems Add a battery with an ACR. I like the idea of keeping both batteries on seperate circuits and not having to play with the switch to keep them both charged.
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Do you have a separate engine start and house battery? What size batteries do you have? Are all batteries of the same type, age and capacity? Are you adding a 3rd battery? What appliances are you running off the main console panel? (Total cumulative amp draw)--and are you considering adding other appliances, such as a windlass, in the near future? Are you sure that the wire from the battery to the console, is #6 AWG? (both positive and negative wires? Is there a refer? What battery charger do you have?

I would recommend that both house batteries go thru a circuit breaker or fuse (I much prefer the circuit breaker--see Sunbeam's problem at Powell last year, for reasons not to have a fuse). The engine battery does not have to be fused. There is too much risk of a short or chafing in the standard installation of the wiring of the C Dory.

You do not have to go with the Blue Seas Switch--there are several ways to add a VSR or ACR.

Things may not be as simple (or difficult) as they seem, but we do have to have as much information as possible.

On edit, by reading your other posts. I see you have a 2003, 22, with twin 40's. Usually those boats had one battery per engine, so I assume that you have two batteries now--how are you going to handle charging with two engines, and once ACR? (and maybe 3 total batteries?) (there are several ways).
 
thataway":1alccuib said:
see Sunbeam's problem at Powell last year, for reasons not to have a fuse).
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Just so you don't have to read all 27 pages :wink , what happened at Powell last year was that I had a mystery electrical problem that was causing my main fuse to blow. At the time I had a 30 amp main fuse protecting a 12-gauge helm supply wire. I had one spare 30 amp fuse.

Because the trip lasted five weeks (3+ after the mystery surfaced), I ran out of main fuses. I was able to jury rig a perfectly usable setup with other (blade style) fuses I had aboard, and did not have to cut the trip short, but I can see where a breaker might have come in handy (although I might not have had a spare breaker, but then they likely do not fail often so most of the time just resetting would have allowed me to continue on until the next time it tripped).

I did finally solve the mystery (on the last day), yay!

Side benefit: As a result of posting some drawings of my system here I did change a few (unrelated to problem) things to improve my wiring setup. I will still be using a main fuse, since that's the way my boat is set up (Blue Sea Safety Hub), but I increased the helm feed wire to #6, and so was also able to increase the size of the fuse protecting that wire (not sure whether or not that would have helped on Powell, but the system is improved at any rate). I have more spare fuses now too :D

I had a pro do mine originally, but even then I found some areas that could be improved, and have been making those changes. It really helped to draw out the whole system*.

*Thanks to AK Angler for making the drawings
 
The boat is a 2003 22' Cruiser.

I have a 2 battery system and I don't plan to add a third. 1 deep cycle 790cca for house and 1 starting battery 1000cca for the twin 40hp yamahas. The deep cycle is brand new. The starting battery passed a load test I did today so I kept it, date sticker was off but I'm assuming 2 years old. They are both group 24 batteries. Battery charger is a pro mariner capable of charging up to 3 batteries (can provide model tomorrow)

House load- I'm positive it is size #6 to panels= stereo, VHF, Radar, gps fishfinder, cabin lights, autopilot, bilges, horn, nav/anchor lights.

Also connceted to house directly- windlass anchor connected via breaker. 2 scotty downriggers will be connected via in line fuses. Wallas stove connected via inline breaker

No refer. it is ice box option

I'm using the 1 battery to start both engines. They are both connected on same terminals. I assume the 1 ACR will recognize them as one charge. Is there an issue with wiring it this way?

I can get the total cumulative draw tomorrow.

I appreciate the help Thanks.

I"m starting to wonder if I should have just stayed with my simpler PERKO switch! I wanted to make things less complicated. haha
 
CDory23":1li785ou said:
I"m starting to wonder if I should have just stayed with my simpler PERKO switch! I wanted to make things less complicated. haha
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Heh, I had that feeling a few times myself. But to be fair, many of the things I changed or improved were things that made good sense either way - it's just that my taking a good look at the system as a whole brought them to light (say, in your case, reviewing your overcurrent protection/fuses/etc.).
 
Call Bluesea!!! Their tech guys are fantastic at troubleshooting! I have the same switch and ACR you're proposing and the 60 AMP in my boat is fine according to bluesea Good luck!
 
You have a lot feeding off that one battery. But that may be the way you choose to do it. The windlass alone can draw up to 60 amps (depending on model). Also the group 24 are the smallest of the batteries that are usually used on boats of our size.

"Deep cycle" and CCA don't really go together. Yes, battery manufacturers put in slightly thicker plates and claim that they are "deep cycle". If you really want deep cycle--go with Golf Carts, or Rolls batteries (overkill for the C Dory 22) You want to measure the battery in terms of amp hours or reserve capacity for a house battery. This measures a specific load over time. CCA, is "Cold Cranking Amps" and relates to the capacity to start engines. Group refers only to case size, nothing to do with capacity.

For my C Dory I went with all Group 31batteries. The group 24 will be from 60 to 75 amp hours. The group 27 will be 80 to 90 and Group 31 will be 105 to 120 amp hours. In other words, you can buy a group 31 which will have almost twice the usable capacity (not discharging the battery more than 50%--or to 12.2 voltsI).

The issue for you will be most efficient charging--with two outboards. I am not positive about the output, but I believe that 17 amps is the total output--and there will be less available for battery charging (as some is used for the motor's functions). Most folks will wire them directly into the input of the ACR.

I personally wire the windlass to the engine start battery, since I will always be running the engine when pulling the anchor--thus be sure that maximum voltage is available for the windlass.

One reason to isolate the house battery form the engine start, is so that you do not subject electronics to low voltage or spikes from the battery charging circuit of the outboards).

The Wallas stove also requires a good high voltage for start cycle. Thus the boat usually comes from the factory with the Wallas wired directly to the battery with a fuse, not a breaker. --some folks start the engine to be sure that there is adequate voltage--we have not found that necessary.

In your case it sounds as if it would be a very good idea to have a bus bar near the ACR--that way you will connect those loads (windlass, Wallas, etc. Main house load, to the buss bar, rather than a tangle of wires off the battery (compounded if you put a fuse on the battery terminal).

Most of the boats come with a barely adequate battery charger (5 amps per banks--10 amps total ) This is fine if you leave the boat plugged in between runs. Generally batteries are not fully charged when running off the outboards. They are on Bulk charge (80% of the charge), but lack the ability to put in the last 20% or longer Absorption phase. Thus you are running your batteries between 80% charged and 50% charged--only 30% of capacity available……

Getting back to basics. You have one engine start for two engines, and one house bank. If there is a failure of the engine start bank, and the house bank has run down=hand crank a 40 HP. (By the way that is the way we used to start 40 hp for many years). However the new engines do require electric power to run.
 
Thataway. Thank you for the response.

Having 2 Group 24 batteries was a choice I made purely because of the space restriction in the starboard lazarette. I would go with a bigger battery or 3 but I"m partial to keeping them in that area. I will measure again and see if I can get a larger battery in but that is a tight space. Is anybody able to fit larger batteries in there?

You have a good point on the Windlass and I will now connect that directly to the starting battery since I will be running the engine whenever deploying and retrieving the anchor. I did choose to solely have the motors running off the starting battery as a security measure so there would always be plenty of juice.

My total outboard charging output is 34amps. 17amps per engine.

I have heard the Wallas stoves are finicky about starting voltage. But if it is connected to the house battery and the engines are running the batteries are really wired in parallel via the ACR at that point so I don't see an issue with running it off the house battery.

I found a blue sea systems 50 amp fuse in the battery compartment unused which I will be now connecting my house load too.

The CCA was a poor but easy description of the deep cycle. I remember looking at amp hours when I was buying new batteries for the minn kota on my last boat. My new deep cycle is an Everstart I bought from wal mart and didn't have that info readily available and I'm actually still having trouble finding it. I believe Everstart are made by DELPHI though which I've had good luck with. I was considering buying 2 deep cycle and using 1 for the starting battery but decided not too and the CCA would come in handy for that. I'm still not opposed to it because that way I would have 2 batteries of the same age/type which would make replacing, charging more uniform.

Tomorrow I am going to wire the blue sea systems add a battery system. I will not be adding fuses to either sides of the ACR since I can't find concrete info on this yet and my only solution is the terminal fuses which is an online order.
 
CDory23":30r31weh said:
Sunbeam, Since you have installed the same system. What fuse setup did you use on the two lines to the ACR?
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I don't have fuses on the two "main" ACR cables (I do have the specified fuse in the ground wire). I don't think I've done anything horribly wrong, but I'm re-evaluating all of my overcurrent protection, because I have the feeling it could be improved upon (I think I don't need to use the ABYC starting circuits exception - that I think I am using - but could instead benefit from battery fusing; but this needs some study on my part). I will be interested to see what you find out on this. Here is a diagram that mostly shows how I have things now.

My_electrical_system_8_2014.sized.jpg

One thing I suspect is that, well, you know how it seems like "Gee, I'm putting this ACR in and now suddenly I need all this extra stuff!" My guess is that for many of us, we could have used some "extra stuff" (in the way of overcurrent protection, better wiring, etc.) all along, but it just shows up as a part of changing things because you step back and take a look at the system. At least I know my 22 didn't come with a truly "proper" electrical system. So I mean even if I had stuck with the same type of switch it originally had, I really could have stood to change things to make it better/safer.

On the batteries. I don't have twins, so can't speak to that, but my boat came with two Group 24 batteries in the starboard lazarette. I wanted more of a "cruising style" system, so I now have one dedicated/smaller start battery, and one dedicated/larger house battery in that same lazarette. The house battery is a Group 31. It took a bit of planning, but I also have the ACR, switch, positive bus bar, negative bus bar, shunt, Safety Hub (fuses), and trim tab relay box in there, plus there is still a reasonably sized open area in the middle (I put things on the "walls" not on the compartment bottom, except for the batteries). I will also put the windlass breaker and maybe a steering pump in there (not sure if that will fit; have to see how large it is). Eventually I will run out of room!
 
Sunbeam":19zih6kt said:
CDory23":19zih6kt said:
I"m starting to wonder if I should have just stayed with my simpler PERKO switch! I wanted to make things less complicated. haha
Click to expand...

Heh, I had that feeling a few times myself. But to be fair, many of the things I changed or improved were things that made good sense either way - it's just that my taking a good look at the system as a whole brought them to light (say, in your case, reviewing your overcurrent protection/fuses/etc.).
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I'm with both of you! I made my house better and now nothing will work until Thursday at midnight! Thank goodness I haven't touched the boat or my wife would really kill me. :lol:
 
Sunbeam, Thats a good idea. I'm gonna return my group 24 and get a 31 for house. Did you secure your batteries in the lazarette, if so how? I currently have two battery trays screwed in place.
 
CDory23":26922w2i said:
Sunbeam, Thats a good idea. I'm gonna return my group 24 and get a 31 for house. Did you secure your batteries in the lazarette, if so how? I currently have two battery trays screwed in place.
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The way the Blue Sea "On/Off/Combine" switch works makes it easy to have a system with dedicated start and house banks (single battery for each in my case). My boat also came with two trays screwed directly into the cored shelf, and then some less-than-wonderful straps, etc. There was not much in the way of overcurrent protection or etc. and it was not the least bit tidy.

So... the way I secured the batteries works really well, but it was a bit fussy to do. My challenge was that the Group 31 is quite tall as compared to the locker, and I have it partially tucked under the locker rim, so in order to get it in and out I needed to be able to slide it sideways across the locker bottom. Hence the hold downs needed to be removable and leave a flush surface. So my concept was to have removable chocks and footman loops on the locker bottom, plus fixed footman loops on the "walls" for the other end of the loop. I overdrilled/filled all the holes in the locker bottom to isolate the core (even though this core does not attach to the rest of the boat, so it's not as critical as other places). But what that allowed me to do was tap the fasteners into place, so they can be removed/replaced as many times as I want (I never really like to do that with "pointy" screws into either fiberglass or balsa core).

I should just take a photo as that would save you reading 1,000 words but what I did was glue a Weld Mount footman loop to a short piece of fiberglass angle. This made a cleat (that holds the bottom of the battery from moving) with a loop attached to it (in which I can secure a strap). Then I drilled and tapped to secure the angles to the locker bottom. This left me with removable cleats and loops, such that the locker bottom is completely flat/flush when I remove them and I can slide the battery(s) in and out. On one end where I didn't need a strap, I made a Starboard cleat and secured it with the same epoxy plug/drilled/tapped/machine screws.

The clearance for the Group 31 is tight vertically, and I recently noticed that a Lifeline Group 31 would be too tall. I have a Full River DC115-12 Group 31 (AGM) on the boat and it just fits. Group 31 are all nearly the same but not exactly, especially in height. One reason I went AGM is that it would be a pain to access the battery to check/add water.
 
With an ACR and unbalanced batteries (24 engine start and group 31 house), there is some chance of overcharging the start battery. Battery charging is not always as simple as it may seem. Boiling off electrolyte, high temperatures can be issues.

My personal approach is to make all batteries equal, and to moniter the temperature.
 
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