Baystar helm leaking fluid

S

swfvi

New member
I have a 2002 Cruiser with a Baystar HH4016 hydraulic helm. I assume it is original to the boat. It works well, but it has an annoying leak at the helm end of the hydraulic system. The leak is worse when the cabin gets hot and I have to constantly top up the fluid. I have tried to read all the posts on steering in the forum and have come across hints that others have or have had the same issue but have not found a solution. I did replace the seal kit with a new one (HS 5147) but this did not help. I had almost concluded that the leak is coming from the base of the helm case and not from under the steering wheel (just in front of the filler cap) but in taking the wheel off today I think perhaps that it is coming from under the wheel after all and running down the underside of the black plastic case and is not easily visible until it hits the white gelcoat. I could replace the seal kit but assume this will not work. The previous owner kept a rag permanently tied around the base of the helm and told me it was just a gasket at the back of the helm. I have of course looked at the back of the helm where it exits the bulkhead and is bolted, but there is no sign of any leak there.
I have replaced the non vented filler cap with a vented one with no effect. I am at my wit's end (a short distance) Any suggestions?
 
My only experience is replacing the regular seals around the shaft. That solved the leaking I had, which looked like it was coming around the back part of the part forward of the bulkhead.

If you have to rebuild the entire helm--including the pistons/ wobble plate pumps--then you will have to replace a rear helm gasket--this could leak-but should not--there may be at least one large "O" ring around the plastic back of the pump. Also the Sea Star has "pressure relief screws on both sides. I believe the Bay Star also has these same relief screws--if so they can leak--there are 3 small O rings on each side on the pressure relief valves... I have not had to take my BayStar pump any further than the front seals--and that solved my problem.

Did you put in a new plastic piece with the 3 screws--or re-use any of the parts?
These pumps seem to last a long time--but the front seal is the first to go....You did put in the right parts with the HS 5147 kit.
 
Well, here goes. And I've been wrong before when it's not my specific boat. So bear with me.

That unit is only a hydraulic pump and a couple of check valves to direct the flow to the correct side of the hydraulic ram. The steering shaft is the pump drive and goes through the reservoir. And further the only place it can leak is through the back, the hydraulic fittings or out through the steering shaft. You've eliminated the back and the fittings, so it must be the shaft seal, right?

Now, all you need to do is make sure the shaft isn't rough or dinged where it goes through the seal and then replace the seal. Seastar/Baystar does sell replacement seals but they say that those kits don't fit the HH4016 pump. That may be why the previous owner didn't fix it, because it's simple to do.

You might call Seastar/Baystar and ask if they have a seal for your pump, or, if they don't, would they tell you the brand and part number. I assume that Seastar/Baystar doesn't make their own seals.

Also, when you refill the unit and re-bleed it use MIL-PRF-83282( MIL-H-83282 .) SeaStar uses the same fluid without the red dye. The MIL spec is a lot cheaper and you can buy it at any aircraft supply. I go to the local airport.

Boris
 
Seastar/Baystar does sell replacement seals but they say that those kits don't fit the HH4016 pump.
Click to expand...

Boris,
According to the current SeaStar web site, the HH4016 pump uses the HS5147 shaft seal kit--and for me, it did fine to resolve leaking issues. (I know of many others who have used the same kit with similar results). Your point that the shaft was worn or pitted is valid--but pretty unusual on the helm pump--more common on the hydraulic cylinder.

The pump itself is a bit more complex. I have not taken the Baystar pump, but I have rebuilt larger pumps from the same manufacture. Most have been wobble plate pumps--and I am pretty sure that the Baystar 1.6 L pump is the same, just less individual cylinders. The Baystar can be rebuilt completely--and there are outfits which rebuild them. Any good hydraulic company can also do the same, or sell you the proper O rings.

Below is a simplistic picture of a wobble plate pump:

Hydraulic-Pumps-2.jpg


Below is the pump torn down--points of leakage--are going to be the #1, the shaft seal, #2 back seal or around the back seal (a loose screw there can cause leakage), the hydraulic fittings, or the pressure relief screws (I mentioned in my prior post).

Please note,--this shows a bad practice when dealing with hydraulics. Never use paper towels, towels etc--any little fiber can make cause mis-functions. Put the parts on clean butcher paper, or best a metal pan. Use denatured alcohol only to clean, and then "lube" with the proper fluid. Be very careful to avoid any particulate material in the rebuild.

110717Fishing%2012-10%2004111142-med.jpg


From the current Sea Star web site:
Recommended oils for your steering system are: SeaStar Fluid, P/N HA5430 (1 quart), HA5440 (1 gallon). The following brands are acceptable: Chevron® Aviation Hydraulic Fluid A, Esso® Univis N15 or J13, Mobil® Aero HFA, Petro Canada Harmony HV115 (in Canada only), Shell® Aero Fluid #41, Texaco® HO15 and other fluids meeting MIL SPEC H-5606-G.
Click to expand...

Boris has a very valid point that the (MIL-H-83282), has a much higher flash point, and thus is less of a fire risk. But I am not aware of any boat fires attributable to the Sea Star hydraulic fluid. There are some minor other differences between this and the 5606--and there are a few military airplanes which still use the 5606. Since 5606 remains to be available at most fixed base airfields, I assume that there have not been many fires with it either. I get a gallon of Phillips 66 X/C 5606A on Amazon for about $42 including shipping. Keep a quart bottle on the boat, with tubes and fittings to bleed or replace the fluid.
 
Thanks to both of you for the info. I am going to order another seal kit and try again. I will let you know the results.
 
Two things which are bad for the helm pumps:
1. over filling with hydraulic fluid. You want to leave an air space.

2. The outboard bouncing around when trailering--is hard on the check valves. I put the outboard hard over to one side, or stabilize the ram, with either PVC pipe or the rubber wedges.
 
Just make sure that the seal they give you is the correct one. A call to SeaStar wouldn't hurt. Don't necessarily go by the one that's in there now, since it's been changed and is still leaking..

It's a simple change out. Careful how you pry the old seal out and grease up the new one, silicone or hydraulic fluid. Don't forget to check the shaft, just a quick look to see if it's OK. And run your fingers over it. May have damaged it when the seal was replaced.

Boris
 
I had much the same experience as the OP and after replacing two shaft seals I gave up and ordered a new unit versus trying to rebuild it myself.

Some lessons learned:

1, Do not keep topping off the unit as there needs to be room for expansion. I personally leave about a 1/2 inch of airspace.

2. Secure your outboard(s) when towing. I added support plates from MotoMate to eliminate the bouncing and turning.

3. Use the purge kit that allows you to screw an adapter hose into the helm reservoir and to the bottle of hydraulic fluid. If you have twin outboards and dual helms, get a pressurizing pump to purge the air, and follow the TSB procedure for dual outboard purging, or if nearby, have a repair shop use their electric purge pump to do the job. I manage to do mine manually but it was 'not' fun!

4. Finally, carry a seal kit and fluid with you. I have found that any part I carry as a spare is never needed, except by others. I even purchased a gallon of aviation hydraulic fluid to make absolutely sure I would never need to work on my steering
:roll:

Edit to add I was very impressed with the manufacturer support. Quick response and very helpful!
 
These pump seals should not be failing. I have had Hynautic pumps with many thousands of hours on them where the seals were still good. It makes me wonder about the quality and source of the O rings. The shafts should not be scoring--they are not exposed to salt spray, high dust or even much dog hair! (Things which tend to make the ram seals fail) (Its a secret plan by the Chinese to ruin our recreational boating industry!)
 
thataway":29cg4utx said:
These pump seals should not be failing. I have had Hynautic pumps with many thousands of hours on them where the seals were still good. It makes me wonder about the quality and source of the O rings. The shafts should not be scoring--they are not exposed to salt spray, high dust or even much dog hair! (Things which tend to make the ram seals fail) (Its a secret plan by the Chinese to ruin our recreational boating industry!)
Click to expand...

In fairness to Seastar my leak started with 2300 hours on the boat and after a long tow across the US with the motors not secured. I first diagnosed it as a shaft seal and thus the two shaft seal replacements, but it turned out to be internal. While I felt comfortable doing a rebuild, the procedure for bleeding dual outboards and dual helms using the steering wheel was not something I wanted to do twice and thus chose a new unit. I have since added 200 hours to the boat without a 'drip' :mrgreen:
 
I had a leak at the shaft...and it made a mess...I ordered the seal kit from West Marine and it was a simple repair..but I worried that it might not be a 100% repair....it was a big mess and the repair only took minutes... I don't like to worry so I just replaced it with a heavier duty Seastar helm...done, no worries... I figure my frustration at about $100 an hour... so it was well worth the replacement.

Joel
SEA3PO
 
We have the 4016 helm from baystar I ordered the seal kit but find the plastic inside the pump was very ruff causing the seal not to stay in place It looks like the plastic burnt up or heated up ? Anyway the boat is 15 years old and had about 1500 hours on it Plus a few long distance trailering So I ordered another Baystar HH 4314 -3 The only difference seems the pump is 1.4 vs 1.6 Running a Mercury 115 it should be fine I’ll let you know how it turns out Jim
 
It'll also use different fittings. The newer ones use ORB fittings as opposed to the older pipe thread fittings. Your hydraulic lines should still be the same size however. Colby
 
Well we put in the HH 4314 baystar so far so good I pulled the old one out HH4016 and Hope the old hydraulic lines would just work and they do So I bled the system. At the helm and need to do it at the engine this weekend.It turns 5.2turns lock to lock vs about 4.6 with old system.
Problems we needed to put in 4 screws instead of 3 also needed to reem out a few sides of the 3 inch hole that the system goes into Also-did not need new ORB fitting they put the right fittings in the kit
 
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