It is time to replace the batteries in the Mary Ellen and I am curious what others are using for batteries. It came with two deep cycle batteries from the factory. It is equiped with twin 40hp Hondas. The more I read it appears to me the best choice are dual purpose batteries (deep cycle and cranking in one battery). The batteries are just about 4 years old. I have the built in battery charger from C-dory and keep it hooked up to shore power when stored at home. Last Sunday after a short cruise the Wallas stove would not start with the engines shut down. I had to start one motor and then it fired right off. The red light was blinking indicating low amps before I started the motor. Any help would be appreciated. Happy Boating, Big Mac.
Battery replacement for a 22' Cruiser
- Thread starter Big Mac
- Start date
Dealer installed AGM batteries. Two in the starboard lazarette, battery post screws had to be shortened a bit, otherwise it's tight but do-able. No battery acid problems. Like Linus and dirt in "Peanuts", battery acid and grease are attracted to my clothes. The newer and higher prices they are, the greater the attraction. 
Me too. I've got a group 24 starting in the starboard and a group 31 deep cycle in the port. I checked the 31 yesterday and it was BONE DRY. Walmart has the Marine Maxx 31 for $65 . It will replace a W.M. Sea-Volt I paid twice that for. Their battery prices are the best I've seen. I'm sure the group 24s will be cheap there too. Dual-purpose batteries are a compromise that I'd opt for if I were you. If you need more "house battery" capacity you could paralell the two 24s(starting) and dedicate them to the Hondas @ switch position 1, and add a deep cycle @ switch position 2.
You might want to check and see what price you can get from Costco. I had to replace my batteries last weekend on my F250 Diesel. Everyplace I looked they were over $75 but Costco had them for $49 with a better warranty to boot!
Since you use the 2 batteries for both starting and house batteries I would definitely go with the dual purpose. Also remember that you never want to let a lead acid battery get below 50% of charge.
Since you use the 2 batteries for both starting and house batteries I would definitely go with the dual purpose. Also remember that you never want to let a lead acid battery get below 50% of charge.
Similar circumstance. After much debate I went with Optima Blue Top dual-purpose gel cell batteries. Top stuff but quite expensive. Figured what the hay at this point. My boat was outfitted by the factory. It lacked an enormously important primary breaker that you should have installed in the battery lazzerette. Not a good idea to have an electrical fire located immediately atop your starboard fuel cell. Your main battery cables are heavy gage; they probably will not short themselves out (burn through). While hopefully microscopically remote, that's a problem which could turn catastrophic without a breaker.
Best,
John
Best,
John
granitecarver
New member
Here's some good advice re batteries: Go to a dedicated battery dealer, get his recommendation and spend some money on the battery(s). Batteries (and most other devices) sold by Costco and similar outlets are all built on the cheap, otherwise they wouldn't be sold by discount stores. When the going gets rough out there, you don't want such batteries on your boat. One example of a knowledgeable dealer with high-quality products is here in Vancouver Canada--Davidson Batteries. There are other good ones, of course, but I think none better.
journey on
New member
I can only agree with the statement of "go to a battery dealer." I went to Costco and bought an Optima battery. Had to take it back, because it was too small to start my truck. Also looked at their golf cart batteries and they were physically smaller than the regular golf cart batteries. WalMart batteries are from Mexico (as is the new engine for my Chevvy truck.) Went to an "American Battery" dealer, and got some decent batteries, and not much more $. Hard to crank start either a Honda 150 when you're on the water. Or a V-8 at the launch ramp. I don't care what the warranty is, you've got to get to the store first.
When I bought my batteries I was looking for a battery to start my '93 Diesel F250. These beasts require massive amounts of Cold Cranking Amps (CCA). Since I was looking on a Friday Night after work and availability was next to nill I took what I could. My choices of places open were GIJoes, Schucks, and Costco. Of the three on Costco had the batteries in stock. The fact that I also saved $30 per battery also helped especially since I also got a much better warranty for the price.
Having been a mechanic in a past life I have an idea of what to look for when shopping for a battery. The Optima while nice being a gell cell just doesn't have the capacity I need to start my truck. They are rated well below the 950 CCA that the battery I bought has and their reserve capacity is also much lower as well. Having said that the Optima batteries are really nice for use in our boats as the gell cell is much more user friendly and is much better suited for occasional use than a lead acid battery is. It is just too bad that they are so darned expensive! I think when I by the next set of batteries for the boat I will be looking at the AGM batteries very closely.
BTW: Costco also sells Optima Batteries but GIJoes prices were better
and Schucks "Exide" Sprial Wound batteries better yet (Same battery different name).
In the Seattle area the only battery specialist stores I'm aware of are Budget Batteries. When I was working as a mechanic in the '80s I had several problems with vehicles that people had taken there to get batteries. There is no way I would ever go there to get a battery for any of my vehivles even though they are inexpensive. Sears might qualify and the Diehard batteries are typically good quality batteries but I make a point not to shop there unless I can't get it somewhere else.
Having been a mechanic in a past life I have an idea of what to look for when shopping for a battery. The Optima while nice being a gell cell just doesn't have the capacity I need to start my truck. They are rated well below the 950 CCA that the battery I bought has and their reserve capacity is also much lower as well. Having said that the Optima batteries are really nice for use in our boats as the gell cell is much more user friendly and is much better suited for occasional use than a lead acid battery is. It is just too bad that they are so darned expensive! I think when I by the next set of batteries for the boat I will be looking at the AGM batteries very closely.
BTW: Costco also sells Optima Batteries but GIJoes prices were better
and Schucks "Exide" Sprial Wound batteries better yet (Same battery different name).In the Seattle area the only battery specialist stores I'm aware of are Budget Batteries. When I was working as a mechanic in the '80s I had several problems with vehicles that people had taken there to get batteries. There is no way I would ever go there to get a battery for any of my vehivles even though they are inexpensive. Sears might qualify and the Diehard batteries are typically good quality batteries but I make a point not to shop there unless I can't get it somewhere else.
I've been using just a single, dual purpose, starting/deep cycle Optima Blue Top battery in my C-Dory with twin Yamahas for the last year or so, and I really like it. I definitely think it has a faster recovery charge time over the dual purpose wet cell it replaced, although I don't have any real scientific data to back it up. I just know that when I get home and put my small maintenance smart charger on it, the recovery time to full charge is much quicker, sometimes less then an hour where it took a half day or longer with the wet cell before. I like the Blue Top no fuss/no muss feature...no water. Had to add water twice to the wet cell in about a year.
Dan and Jan on Flat Iron
Dan and Jan on Flat Iron
Ted Osborne
New member
Big Mac, I have had dual purpose batterys on several boats and would definitely go with them regardless of the type you get. There is a dedicated battery company in Seattle called; Allied Battery Co. Inc. They do have locations in Tacoma and Seattle. Seattle = 105 Brandon, 206-762-5522, Tacoma = 2310 East 11th St., 253-627-5250. They carry Trojan, Minn Kota by Trojan and Optima. I have been very pleased with their batterys and the help they give in getting the right battery for your use.
Hey guys,
Let me pass on what I learned from a battery "specialist". Not sure if he really was but this made sense to me. You can decide for yourselves. If I recall, he said there were basically three kinds of batteries.., starting, deep cycle and the hybrids. The basic difference was lead plate thickness. His definitions went something like this.., starting batteries are what you have in your car and "cold cranking amps" are certainly important when it comes to starting your car (or boat). They have relatively thin lead plates and provide plenty of amps for a short time and re-charge rapidly and well. Their down side was they don't provide a lot of amps for very long and don't survive being deeply discharged very well, (as in pot pulling, winch hauling, or long periods of using cabin lights, radios etc.,). You can apparently kill a good starting battery by discharging it too deeply, just a few times.
The opposite end was a true deep cycle battery which has very thick plates, is very heavy, large and expensive. While not a very good starting battery (the reason escapes me at the moment) it excels in providing amps for long periods and accepts being deeply discharged, then recharged with little damage, over and over.
The hybrid is somewhere in between and is what most of us are familiar with. This is the battery that Shucks, Napa, Costco and others all sell as Marine Deep Cycle Batteries. Thicker plates than a starting battery, thinner than a true deep cycle, their performance is also somewhere in the middle.
The statistic I found interesting was (according to this guy) that we could expect somewhere around 1-4 years of life out of these batteries, depending on abuse. Here in Alaska, where cold temps and long hauls on the pot puller are common, I got just barely over a year on my two new batteries from last year. I brought them inside before ice up, charged them a couple of times and kept them off of the floor, but still only got a year out of them.
So for my money I went with the best warranty I could get, in this case Shucks. I bought a 2 year, full replacement battery (pro-rated after that) and will probably have to trade it in every year to year and a half. That's life in the Arctic.
As an aside, his opinion of the gel batteries was great for cars, negative for boats because they didn't survive the deep discharge very well and were so expensive.
Billy
Let me pass on what I learned from a battery "specialist". Not sure if he really was but this made sense to me. You can decide for yourselves. If I recall, he said there were basically three kinds of batteries.., starting, deep cycle and the hybrids. The basic difference was lead plate thickness. His definitions went something like this.., starting batteries are what you have in your car and "cold cranking amps" are certainly important when it comes to starting your car (or boat). They have relatively thin lead plates and provide plenty of amps for a short time and re-charge rapidly and well. Their down side was they don't provide a lot of amps for very long and don't survive being deeply discharged very well, (as in pot pulling, winch hauling, or long periods of using cabin lights, radios etc.,). You can apparently kill a good starting battery by discharging it too deeply, just a few times.
The opposite end was a true deep cycle battery which has very thick plates, is very heavy, large and expensive. While not a very good starting battery (the reason escapes me at the moment) it excels in providing amps for long periods and accepts being deeply discharged, then recharged with little damage, over and over.
The hybrid is somewhere in between and is what most of us are familiar with. This is the battery that Shucks, Napa, Costco and others all sell as Marine Deep Cycle Batteries. Thicker plates than a starting battery, thinner than a true deep cycle, their performance is also somewhere in the middle.
The statistic I found interesting was (according to this guy) that we could expect somewhere around 1-4 years of life out of these batteries, depending on abuse. Here in Alaska, where cold temps and long hauls on the pot puller are common, I got just barely over a year on my two new batteries from last year. I brought them inside before ice up, charged them a couple of times and kept them off of the floor, but still only got a year out of them.
So for my money I went with the best warranty I could get, in this case Shucks. I bought a 2 year, full replacement battery (pro-rated after that) and will probably have to trade it in every year to year and a half. That's life in the Arctic.
As an aside, his opinion of the gel batteries was great for cars, negative for boats because they didn't survive the deep discharge very well and were so expensive.
Billy
Billy,
That is pretty close to what I learned as a mechanic some 25 years or so ago. However my understanding of the Gel Cell batteries is that they are much better suited to deep discharge than a lead acid battery is. The problem is that they don't have the high amperage output that lead acid does so they are actually not as good for a starting battery from what I gather. I need to do more research on that though.
BTW: If you put a battery on cement it will completely discharge the battery in just a few weeks. Also, to keep your battery in tip top shape get an automatic trickle charger and leave it plugged in. Some of the newer chargers will actually cycle the batteries for you to keep them in top condition. If you are going through a set of batteries per year I would certainly look into getting one of the better chargers!
The reason a lead acid battery only lasts about 4 years is that the acid eats up the lead plates and the resulting waste (sulfer?) drops to the bottom of the battery. Over time this builds up and eventually shorts out the plates and you lose the use of that cell.
The easy way to test for a "sulfated" battery is to put it on a high output charger and watch the voltage. If the voltage goes above about 14.8 volts the battery should be replaced.
You can also test for a shorted cell with a hydrometer or a volt meter. With the hydrometer you check the specific gravity of each cell. They should all be nearly the same. If just one is different it is time to replace the battery. With a volt meter you can actually test the voltage of each cell. For the first (and last) cell put one lead on the post and the other in the acid of the cell. This should read close to 2 volts or so. For each inner cell put the leads in the previous cell and current cell to get the reading. Again, if one cell is noticably different than the rest replace the battery.
The final way to test a battery is to use a load tester. Basically this will put a fixed load on the battery. Say 400 amps for 30 seconds. You watch the battery voltage during the load. If it drops below 9 volts then it should be replaced. Also, if it doesn't recover within a fixed time (I forget how long) then it should also be replaced.
Any reputable mechanic should know this stuff. It is pretty basic charging system diagnostics.
That is pretty close to what I learned as a mechanic some 25 years or so ago. However my understanding of the Gel Cell batteries is that they are much better suited to deep discharge than a lead acid battery is. The problem is that they don't have the high amperage output that lead acid does so they are actually not as good for a starting battery from what I gather. I need to do more research on that though.
BTW: If you put a battery on cement it will completely discharge the battery in just a few weeks. Also, to keep your battery in tip top shape get an automatic trickle charger and leave it plugged in. Some of the newer chargers will actually cycle the batteries for you to keep them in top condition. If you are going through a set of batteries per year I would certainly look into getting one of the better chargers!
The reason a lead acid battery only lasts about 4 years is that the acid eats up the lead plates and the resulting waste (sulfer?) drops to the bottom of the battery. Over time this builds up and eventually shorts out the plates and you lose the use of that cell.
The easy way to test for a "sulfated" battery is to put it on a high output charger and watch the voltage. If the voltage goes above about 14.8 volts the battery should be replaced.
You can also test for a shorted cell with a hydrometer or a volt meter. With the hydrometer you check the specific gravity of each cell. They should all be nearly the same. If just one is different it is time to replace the battery. With a volt meter you can actually test the voltage of each cell. For the first (and last) cell put one lead on the post and the other in the acid of the cell. This should read close to 2 volts or so. For each inner cell put the leads in the previous cell and current cell to get the reading. Again, if one cell is noticably different than the rest replace the battery.
The final way to test a battery is to use a load tester. Basically this will put a fixed load on the battery. Say 400 amps for 30 seconds. You watch the battery voltage during the load. If it drops below 9 volts then it should be replaced. Also, if it doesn't recover within a fixed time (I forget how long) then it should also be replaced.
Any reputable mechanic should know this stuff. It is pretty basic charging system diagnostics.
journey on
New member
Actually, Optima batteries are AGM batteries (absorbed glass mat), not gelled batteries. They are a newer development after gelled cells (and cheaper) with some advantages, such as longer life (I can only hope) lower self discharge, and lower internal resistance (higher current output.) The size I got has a starting current of 1000 amps, room temp. and a CCA of 910. For an outboard and other gas engines, that appears to be enough, especially in So Cal.
Just to fill in the gaps and make a comment as well:
Starting batteries have: (compared to deep cycle batteries)
1.Thinner plates, and thus there's room for
2 More plates, with
3. More surface area, and then
4. More surface area ='s more sites for chemical reactions, and we then get
5. More amperage or volume of power, which ='s more cranking amps.
But with the thinner plates, if the battery is deeply discharged, the plates dissolve, and do not magically reappear when trying to recharge. And the battery is ruined.
Deep cycle batteries, on the other hand-
Have fewer, thicker plates, with less total surface area, and don't provide as much surface area and cranking amperage, but do withstand heavy discharge without dissolving the plates and recover if not totally discharged, i.e., they're built for deep discharge like cabin (house) use.
My personal solution to this question about which type of battery is to buy the cheaper, but still reasonable quality with a good warranty deep cycle
group 27 batteries from Costco or Wal Mart andCostcocare of them by frequent charging and watching the electrolyte level, etc. They last 4-5 years in service for me.
Since adding the electric trolling motor, I've gone from 2 to 4 group 27 batteries and added a Honda 1000i generator for use when necessary, but the 4 27's usually don't need any help from the generator to get through most any demands placed on them, unless we troll for more than 6-7 hours continuously.
Also, for qualifiers, my ambient temperatures here in Redding, CA., do not drop the batteries below 45 degrees.
One other thought: The Owners Manual for my new 2005 Yamaha 90 EFI
motor specifies the battery requirements as:
Minimum cold cranking amps (CCA/SAE)= 380 amps
Minimum marine cranking amps (MCA/ABYC) = 502 amps
Minimum reserve capacity (RC/SAE) = 124 minutes
Which is pretty hefty, but with the electronics in the fuel, ignition, and computer control systems that simply won't work when to voltage drops below a minimum level, they're just making sure you've got enough battery reserve to get the motor started after some house use.
Joe.
Starting batteries have: (compared to deep cycle batteries)
1.Thinner plates, and thus there's room for
2 More plates, with
3. More surface area, and then
4. More surface area ='s more sites for chemical reactions, and we then get
5. More amperage or volume of power, which ='s more cranking amps.
But with the thinner plates, if the battery is deeply discharged, the plates dissolve, and do not magically reappear when trying to recharge. And the battery is ruined.
Deep cycle batteries, on the other hand-
Have fewer, thicker plates, with less total surface area, and don't provide as much surface area and cranking amperage, but do withstand heavy discharge without dissolving the plates and recover if not totally discharged, i.e., they're built for deep discharge like cabin (house) use.
My personal solution to this question about which type of battery is to buy the cheaper, but still reasonable quality with a good warranty deep cycle
group 27 batteries from Costco or Wal Mart andCostcocare of them by frequent charging and watching the electrolyte level, etc. They last 4-5 years in service for me.
Since adding the electric trolling motor, I've gone from 2 to 4 group 27 batteries and added a Honda 1000i generator for use when necessary, but the 4 27's usually don't need any help from the generator to get through most any demands placed on them, unless we troll for more than 6-7 hours continuously.
Also, for qualifiers, my ambient temperatures here in Redding, CA., do not drop the batteries below 45 degrees.
One other thought: The Owners Manual for my new 2005 Yamaha 90 EFI
motor specifies the battery requirements as:
Minimum cold cranking amps (CCA/SAE)= 380 amps
Minimum marine cranking amps (MCA/ABYC) = 502 amps
Minimum reserve capacity (RC/SAE) = 124 minutes
Which is pretty hefty, but with the electronics in the fuel, ignition, and computer control systems that simply won't work when to voltage drops below a minimum level, they're just making sure you've got enough battery reserve to get the motor started after some house use.
Joe.
Here is a very interesting article on the Optima and Exide Orbital batteries done by Popular Mechanics. http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/1266741.html
Optima has a very informative site as well. http://www.optimabatteries.com.
Optima has a very informative site as well. http://www.optimabatteries.com.