Battery charger and controler

L

Larry Patrick

New member
Want to get a good system to maintain and charge AGM batterys. Is the name Bluestar or blue sea something that sounds similar. Want to keep batterys I installed in good shape over winter,will be leaving them in boat with small electric heater inside cover to keep everything from deep freeze.
 
Larry Patrick":1wvlocf3 said:
Want to get a good system to maintain and charge AGM batterys. Is the name Bluestar or blue sea something that sounds similar. Want to keep batterys I installed in good shape over winter,will be leaving them in boat with small electric heater inside cover to keep everything from deep freeze.
Click to expand...
Get a "Battery Tender Junior" we use them to not just charge a battery but to hold a float charge of about 13.2 volts. Its a tech chip charger and not expensive. I use them on my motorcycle too.
Geoff
 
Blue Sea Systems (www.bluesea.com) stuff is top notch.

Here's their pitch on battery chargers. They have controllers too.

"The Blue Sea Systems 25A and 40A P12 Battery Charger is a four stage, three output dry mount device designed for use in harsh environments where reliability, ease of use, and high performance are of primary importance. To this end, the P12 is assembled and tested in Bellingham, Washington, USA. Critical components, including all electronic circuitry, are of U.S. manufacture.
Advanced Multi-Stage Charging
The P12 is designed to charge three electrically independent batteries or battery banks. The P12 has the unique capability to individually move each battery out of the Absorption charging stage. This ensures batteries near their full charge do not continue to receive high constant voltages necessary in the Absorption stage. This is optimal treatment for long battery life. Charge Coordination integrates with the Blue Sea Systems family of Automatic Charging Relays (ACR) to force separation of the battery banks while the P12 is operational, to allow the batteries to individually exit the Absorption stage. After fourteen days of continuous Float, the charger will repeat the normal charge cycle to assure good battery health."

But, I have the ProNauticP 1220 (ProMariner) which is the equivalent and am happy with it.

Good hunting.

Aye
 
If you're looking at the Blue Sea Systems 25A P12 Battery Charger I'll suggest an alternate. The Xantrex Truecharge2 Battery Charger 20A. While the Blue Sea certainly is good, I've used an Xantrex charger for 15 years and it still is going well.

Now, why would I suggest the Xantrex? For the 20 amp charger, it's $250 for the Xantrex, $400 for the Blue Seas. If you want the 40 amp, which is overkill, it's about $200 difference.

Either one, they're both good.

Now, please explain why the X in Xantrex is pronounced "Z"?

Boris
 
I have no experience with the Blue Seas charger, but by Foggy's description it has features that most battery chargers do not have. The ability to work with the voltage sensitive relays is a plus. This appears to be a fairly new product to the US market.

I have had bad luck with the factory installed chargers--every one has gone out in a few years.

Currently I have a Mastervolt, and at the time, I put it in, I thought it was the best, but I would strongly consider the Blues Seas currently, based on Foggy's description.

I have also used the Xantrex, and it worked well (but I try and avoid items made in china if I can).

ProMariner is also good.

What heater are you going to be running? Even with my large boats in freezing temperatures, I avoided fan powered heaters, and used very small resistive only heaters, well fused, with circuits to avoid overheating or shutting off if the heater was tipped over.
 
journey on":2imve5sm said:
If you're looking at the Blue Sea Systems 25A P12 Battery Charger I'll suggest an alternate. The Xantrex Truecharge2 Battery Charger 20A. While the Blue Sea certainly is good, I've used an Xantrex charger for 15 years and it still is going well.

Now, why would I suggest the Xantrex? For the 20 amp charger, it's $250 for the Xantrex, $400 for the Blue Seas. If you want the 40 amp, which is overkill, it's about $200 difference.

Either one, they're both good.

Now, please explain why the X in Xantrex is pronounced "Z"?

Boris
Click to expand...

Boris, think XEROX and the reason the "p" in swimming is silent... :shock:
 
Larry,
I assume from your post that you don't currently have a 110v mounted on board battery charger.
I believe I was the first Brat early adopter of the Blue Seas P12 40 amp 4 stage charger to post about it (5 yr warranty vs 2 yr for Mastervolt) came out in Feb, and it ROCKS for me (3, 73 lb group 31 big AGMs...state of the art monitoring/algorithms/temp/adjustments/etc).
I suspect it may be way overkill for you.
Agree with Dr Bob (as usual), be careful with covered heat in your climate...many experts (I do not claim to be one) would suggest bringing your batteries into the garage (warmer than you can get the boat without the iffy electrical connections and heat) and keep them charged with trickle chargers in there. Winterize the boat plumbing.
Blue Seas does not make a trickle charger, but the West Marine 2 amp 'maintainer' often is on sale for 30% off or more and I have had good luck with them. They would save you $500 off the P12 40 amp, which I don't think you currently need.
Cheers!
John
 
Dave mentioned that his Cabelas AGMs didn't last as long as he thought they should have,he suggested Blue Sea equip I forgot name. So I installed 2 Lifeline AGMs ,but am finally getting around to the charger. I figured running the boat all season would keep batterys in good shape,but want to make sure charger is good for winter. Want the batterys to last a good while. Don't have the heater yet but plan on running a independent cord from house to keep heater on just to keep deep freeze out.
 
I don't think "deep freeze" will hurt the boat itself. I take my batteries out and bring them into the house (i.e., basement). I also remove the Nav equipment and almost everything else in and on the boat. Never had a problem.
 
Larry, are you looking for a built in battery charger? If so, then you need a 110 v system on the boat--same even if you are just running an extension cord and heater (not really recommended…

You need to take care of good new batteries, from the get go. This means never discharging them more than 50%, recharging them regularly, and using a desolating system etc...
 
Just want to make sure new batterys are maintained without overcharging. Have a guy running a check on everything told him if not good put a blue sea in there or the other name one. Will be hooked up to 110 from house.Boat is still on lake and good mechanic makes dock calls,just replaced burnt out stern bilge pump.
 
Larry, yes, running the boat a lot during the season will keep the batteries up fairly well--but are not ideal for battery health. The best is to have the batteries on the charger (To allow that final 20% in the absorption phase of the charging to top the batteries off.) Generally running the batteries on the boat engine, charges the batteries up to about 80% (especially the house batteries.

Specify exactly what you want the mechanic to do. You will be paying a goodly amount for both Lifeline batteries (which are excellent) and the mechanic's time. A few mechanics keep up with the latest technology, but not many. You may be fortunate to have an excellent person working on your boat….

You want to understand all that is going on with your boat. You are outfitting it with quality gear, but when things go bad on the water (and if you are putting an EPRIB aboard, I assume that you are planing trips into remote areas), then you want to be able to repair anything which goes wrong!
 
Larry you have a 20 amp Charles American made charger. They have an excellent reputation. It has a switch for lead filled, jell cell or AGM batteries. Yamaha's engines have been reported to over charge AGM's. I recommended you install a Blue Seas ACR relay. You currently have a simple two battery manual switch. The boat has shore power and a separate breaker for the battery charger. The ACR relay should prevent over charging if I understand things right. You can buy any kind of battery charger you want but if the engine is over charging the AGM batteries I think you are unlikely to get good service out of the expensive AGM's. For that reason I would switch have gone back to regular flooded cell batteries. That you could buy for about 100 dollars each. I'm not sure for what AGM's cost that they are all they are cracked up to be. Since you already bought for the AGM's I would first get a Blue Seas ACR relay installed. I don't think you battery charger is the problem.
D.D.
 
Dave's clarification as to that your boat has a 110 volt system, and has a Charles 20 amp charger built in is very valuable.

Boating is a bit different than running a car. I find that the more the boater knows about his boat, and the technology involved, the better experience they will have boating.

The Charles Charger is excellent, and although the Blue Seas, has a few features which are appealing--the Charles is more than adequate for your boat!

As to AGM batteries, and specifically with Yamaha Outboards. AGM are more sensitive to over voltages than flooded lead acid batteries are, but not deadly sensitive as Gel cell batteries are. Andy from SIMS has installed hundreds of AGMs on Yahama motor installations, and states he has never seen a problem. Some of the confusion came from about 10 years ago, when Yamaha specifically stated that gel cells should not be used on their motors. It was eventually clarified, that they actually meant gel cells, but not AGM's. (But many equated gel cells and AGM's). I have owned Yamaha motors, and monitored their output voltages--about the same as all of the others, not as well regulated as alternators on cars, or battery chargers, but rare to exceed 14.4 volts. Most manufacturres of batteries state that they can be charged up to 2.4 to 2.45 volts per cell (x 6 for a 12 volt battery). (this is 14.4 to 14.7--I think 14.7 is too high). Real gel batteries should not be charged at more than 14.1 volts. All batteries are sensitive to temperature; this is perhaps more important in valve regulated batteries (AGM). This is the reason that some battery chargers have a temperature prob. The battery charger I use for rapid charging of the AGM's on my C Dory when running the freezer, also has temperature settings. I also monitor temp, voltage and current.

AGM batteries have some advantages--they can be mounted in the cabin or spaces with human habitation. They can be mounted on ends or sides (not upside down), they are "maintenance free"--so you don't have to check electrolytes every 30 days (or more often). I use AGM for my freezer, because they will accept a charge faster than a flooded lead acid battery. They have a lower self discharge rate. They may or may not last longer than flooded lead acid depending on use.

I would monitor the voltage of your batteries with a digital volt meter. With your use at this point, perhaps the Victron 700 or 702 (monitors two battery voltages) is overkill. You can get cheap 2 decimal point meters on Amazon for a low price. If your batteries are consistently being charged at out voltages over 14.6 volts, then I would either switch batteries, or turn on more "appliances"--most of the time, just the electronics, will be plenty.

Float voltage is a different story, but that is in the realm of chargers, not the motors.

No matter, you should be putting the batteries on the charger at least a day or so a week--that will give you better battery life. Also we don't know what parasitic drains your boat has on the batteries (Dave will know that, but it is possible, he was completely shutting off the batteries when not using it.)

A lot to learn--and there is a lot of information on the internet on just this subject of battery charging….
 
When we were not running the boat it was always plugged into shore power/driveway at our house. The heater was a small round grey Honeywell model. Separate adjustable heat, fan controls with tip over shutoff. Cost about 25 dollars at Wally World. We left the battery switch turned to off, battery charger, outlet breaker on as that was where heater was pulled into. Never had a any mildew issues. The Cabella batteries had warning labels about warranty being void if they received anything higher than 14.2 volts if I remember correctly. The boat came with group 27 flooded acid type Interstate batteries which Wefings installed in April of 2009. I switched the boat to AGM's after four years. It was my belief the Yamaha 150 which powers the boat was over charging the batteries caused an early demise of the AGM's.
Our R-27 Ranger Tug has four AGM's and for what ever reason there is some consensus with the Tugnuts that lead acid batteries perform just as well when you compare battery life versus cost. Some of the AGM's have not lasted as long as some people thought should. We went to AGM's in what is now Larry's boat because where they were placed above the fuel tanks its was a pain to check and add distilled water to both batteries. Hence AGM's no maintenance required. Problem being they did not last very long. They still functioned but did not end up performing as well as the folded cell type batteries. Lots of people including myself want the best for our baby. Sometime more expensive items turn out to be not the best solution for the given circumstances. When the boat was sold I recommended and offered to pay for two replacement flooded cell batteries. Larry wanted the best for his new baby. There is no shame in that.

D.D.
 
Larry wanted the best for his new baby. There is no shame in that.
Click to expand...

Amen, Thanks for verifying what you had done. Agree, that there are specific reasons for AGM, (as listed in my post above)--and that often that better results may be with flooded lead acid. Difficulty accessing for checking electrolyte level is a reason for AGM. Also carefully monitor battery charging voltage level is important. The Yamaha 115 I owned for 5 years, had digital read outs, and this included voltage. This may be a way to monitor the voltage at this time--and give us all some feedback on the voltage input to the batteries.

There are multiple sources on the internet, which verify that 14.4 volts is an acceptable voltage even at 105 degrees F.

This is from the Lifeline AGM battery manual:
charging voltage bulk and absorption 14.2 to 14.4 volts. Float voltage 13.2 to 13.4 volts. Equalizing voltage 15.5 for 8 hours.
Click to expand...

There has been some controversary about equalizing AGM batteries--and it should be done in an controlled environment, including temperature monitoring. My feeling is that using a pulse desulfator on an ongoing basis will avoid having to apply equalizing currents.

In any case, Larry, needs to determine what the steady state voltage is when running the outboards.
 
A precise charging voltage may seem unimportant, but in fact it is a very fine line. Even a tenth of a volt too high and you will heat the battery up and cause it to boil more. A tenth of a volt too low and over time it will begin to sulfate. This is why most battery manufacturers give you a slot of about 2 tenths(14.2 - 14.4). A good battery charger will give you precise control over the voltages.

You must also understand the difference between "actual voltage" and "temperature compensated voltage". If you are viewing actual voltage in the summer it will appear that the batteries are being under charged. In the winter it will appear that they are being overcharged. For example I just checked my battery bank which is being charged right now - the actual voltage(absorption stage) is 13.5 - but the temperature compensated voltage is 14.4 - a charger with a temperature probe does a better job keeping your bank healthy.
 
Robert H. Wilkinson":ewa86hmr said:
A precise charging voltage may seem unimportant, but in fact it is a very fine line. Even a tenth of a volt too high and you will heat the battery up and cause it to boil more. A tenth of a volt too low and over time it will begin to sulfate. This is why most battery manufacturers give you a slot of about 2 tenths(14.2 - 14.4). A good battery charger will give you precise control over the voltages.

You must also understand the difference between "actual voltage" and "temperature compensated voltage". If you are viewing actual voltage in the summer it will appear that the batteries are being under charged. In the winter it will appear that they are being overcharged. For example I just checked my battery bank which is being charged right now - the actual voltage(absorption stage) is 13.5 - but the temperature compensated voltage is 14.4 - a charger with a temperature probe does a better job keeping your bank healthy.
Click to expand...

All that for this:


“You must also understand the difference between "actual voltage" and "temperature compensated voltage". If you are viewing actual voltage in the summer it will appear that the batteries are being under charged. In the winter it will appear that they are being overcharged. For example I just checked my battery bank which is being charged right now - the actual voltage(absorption stage) is 13.5 - but the temperature compensated voltage is 14.4 - a charger with a temperature probe does a better job keeping your bank healthy.”
_________________

Recently, I have been looking at battery charging and maintenance for both my boat (2 group 29 Deep Cycles) and my motorcycle. A friend who is pilot and has a couple of airplanes to maintain turned me on to some seemingly small and simple “trickle” chargers; actually maintainers.

They are BatteryMINDers, “made byVDC Electronics, Inc. founded in 1993, is a privately held company headquartered in Englewood, New Jersey. We specialize in battery management products designed to improve and extend the life of any/all type lead-acid based batteries through the use of our proprietary design techniques and U.S. patented desulphation circuitry.”

Here is the link to the BatteryMINDer’s web site.

They have 2 devices (mod #1500 and #1510) that are appealing due to size, price and function (high frequency pulse desulfation (not high voltage) and temperature monitoring).

My question is this. Their temperature monitoring is ambient temp, measure at the site of the device. Is this the right place to be monitoring the temp or should it be at the battery, like on the case or in the enclosure?

Curious which is the “right” way and what difference it makes.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

0_CD_Cover_SlpyC_with_Classics_MBSP_2009_288.thumb.jpg
 
The right way is at the batteries. For example for my RV, I have a Magnum charger/inverter, which has an actual sensor probe which attaches to a battery terminal, and has a thermistor in that probe.

To use a pulse technology, I use the Pluse Tech power plus conditioners, which run off the battery voltage, and in conjunction with the charger. That is they are not a charger, just a pulse desolator.

I also have several of the battery minders and have been using them successfully for years. I don't know the exact circuit of either of these. However, the Battery minder does have a 1.5 amp charger--which should only maintain at float level. I'll have to throw one on a discharged battery and see what the voltage is, if it goes into a bulk or absorption stage.

I only worry about the temperature, when I am charging the batteries in bulk or absorption phase. Not a think I can do if the ambient temp is zero degrees, or 110 degrees! It is the temperature in the battery which is important--and for that you must modify the voltage and charing current.

I have ordered some cheap monitors which give voltage, amperage, watts and total watts. They would work well to monitor battery charging, as well as discharging!
 
Back
Top