Backup GPS or smart phone acceptable?

[CDory23]

Hi all,

Found what seems to be a good deal on a backup gps.

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/garmin--g ... --11553609

I figured it could also come in handy for backpacking, geocaching etc....


Before I go ahead and purchase I"m wondering what people think of using their smartphone as a backup gps? I assume its not a reliable source because it used the cell towers opposed to satellite, but curious if anybody does this? I do have the BoatUS app on my phone if I ever need a tow which relays my exact position.
Thoughts?

 

[cbgale]

For that price, you may want to look at a Pad, perhaps a mini, and for very little software cost have a backup GPS/chartplotter and download some inexpensive software. But, it must have an internal GPS chip so that you are not relying on towers. You can also purchase an external GPS that plugs in to one of the available ports.

 

[Rain]

That is a nice looking unit.

I have been wkndering if I can use my old Samsung Tab 3 as a backup.

 

[South of Heaven]

My buddy uses his iPad and then downloaded the Navionics app. Now he has a HUGE screen and an awesome water navigation devive. I think there's a monthly fee to it but the ease of use and capabilities are amazing. He told me it's better than those units which cost thousands of dollars.

 

[CDory23]

good idea on tablet. I could see that screen being a pleasure to use. I would not want to carry one around though for the other uses I may have of the device like geocaching, backpacking. I do have a galaxy tablet a few years old and a quick search looked around 100 for external gps unit. I would also be a little weary of the battery life of a tablet using it for that purpose. It could be an excuse to install a usb charger on the boat.

 

[nordicstallion]

I-phone works great. Use it all the time as backup to my other backup. Velcro on dash & phone & plugged in to acc. Port. Also have the hike & bike navionics app on our phones. Wife always uses it when on horseback in the redwood outback trails. Invaluable!!!

 

[breausaw]

I would say that's a bargain! !

The big problems I see with pads is they are no good in direct sunlight and not waterproof.
I have two Garmin handheld units, an older Colorado 400c and a newer Montana 600 I keep in a hard mount at my fingertips. I like to run my trip information on the Montana, but it comes in handy for a verity of useful functions.
The old Colorado goes to shore and is the backup to the backup, both are waterproof and work flawlessly in direct sunlight. Fact is, when in direct sunlight you can turn the screen brightness down all the way.
I would recommend as a backup going with the real deal, not something non-marine friendly.

 

[thataway]

The i phone has its own GPS chip, so it will work fine anywhere. Perhaps the Garmin GPS has a bit easier navigation platform. On the other hand the screen is small. I have an old 76 and also the 400 C as hiking etc back ups. I use the I pad extensively for planing, and navigation. There is no visual issue with the i pad in the cabin of a C Dory. There are waterproof cases for the I pad.

For a backup the Garmin you linked to is excellent, and also takes topo maps, as well as street maps on a micro SD chip.

 

[hardee]

CDory23,

I have that same device as you are looking at as a backup and for my ditch bag. I use it primarily for log number recording, but it works great. It also has barametric info if you are into keeping an eye on that.

The issues with a lot of the phones for backup. is like you touched on. Their "GPS" is really triangulation from the cell towers and if you get out of range, you have no position info. I had that issue with a motorola droid and with my samsung, so have gone to GPS for gps function..

I am considering getting a tablet os some type other than ipad (I OS) for more portable use, and what ever that one is will have a GPS chip internal.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Pat Anderson]

CDory23,


The issues with a lot of the phones for backup. is like you touched on. Their "GPS" is really triangulation from the cell towers and if you get out of range, you have no position info. I had that issue with a motorola droid and with my samsung, so have gone to GPS for gps function..

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

Harvey, not true! Smartphones have real GPSes in them and do NOT depend on cell tower triangulation! Tablets may or may not have real GPSes. The ones that are "WiFi" only do not, but the ones that are capable of a cell connection also have real GPSes in them. These work fine without a cell connection. We use our iPhones and iPad everywhere without a cell connection for GPS backup!

 

[thataway]

I am not positive that all android phones have the GPS chipset that similar to the i phones, but most do. The GPS acquisition is faster with triangulation with the cell towers.

 

[AstoriaDave]

Harvey,

Which Android phones do you think are lacking a true GPS chipset? We just acquired a MotoE LTE, and I have not played with it enough to tell if it is a genuine GPS or not.

Second question: which apps and what sources of charts have you found useful?

 

[hardee]

Harvey,

Which Android phones do you think are lacking a true GPS chipset? We just acquired a MotoE LTE, and I have not played with it enough to tell if it is a genuine GPS or not.

Second question: which apps and what sources of charts have you found useful?

I had a Motorola Droid Max, I can guarantee you that it does not have a GPS that functions away from the cell towers. I had many times, both on the water and in no cell coverage areas on land where my phone would not tell me where I was on a map program.

On my current phone, a Samsung S4, I have had the pleasure of it not knowing where I was several times up in the Broughtons.

Since my phone is android, I use Google Maps. I also use My Radar app, which uses a mapping base, There is also an AIS ap that I use called Boat Watch, which uses (I think) Google Maps too. I don't use it for navigation.

Pat, since I don't use I-OS anything I cant speak to them, but I'm pretty sure that not all smart phones are all created equal.

Hope that helps.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[NewMoon]

My Samsung Galaxy S-II Skyrocket, a ~4 year old Android, has a true GPS. On recommendation from Jeff Siegel of Active Captain, I installed MX Mariner. Haven't used its navigation functions enough to comment on them, but it does a good job of showing SE Alaska charts in detail, and where we are on them.

US charts are free, but if you want to have several regions of charts on your phone at the same time they do take up a good bit of memory. 2-3 regions fit OK on my old phone. You can download as needed, and remove a region to make room for another if that's necessary.

Not sure if BC charts are available.

 

[Pat Anderson]

I am not positive that all android phones have the GPS chipset that similar to the i phones, but most do. The GPS acquisition is faster with triangulation with the cell towers.

Correct, the cell tower trianguation is just a boost or assist to the GPS in the phone, which speeds up satellite acquisition and according to one article provides the phone info about where the satellites will be for the upcoming four hours.

GPSes are not required in smartphones, but virtually all the new ones have GPSes. Amazon and Google woiuld probably pay for a GPS enabled phone for you just so they could target ads based on knowing where you are!

 

[williwaw]

Location services in mobile phones was really driven by problems when calling 911 as people often didn't know exactly where they were. With landline phones they knew your address but that all changed when we took our phones with us.

The requirement didn't specify a GPS chipset but it turns out cell tower triangulation is problematic so when chipset prices went down the phone vendors just started including them with the devices.

 

[Aurelia]

As of February this year, the FCC requires this from your phone/carrier combo:

The new rules will require wireless telecom companies, referred to in FCC terms as commercial mobile radio service (CMRS) providers, to ensure “dispatchable location” or x/y location within 50 meters can be provided to 911 call centers, known as public safety answering points (PSAPs), within 30 seconds, regardless of indoor or outdoor location. Dispatchable location means the street address of the calling party, plus additional information such as suite, apartment, or similar information necessary to adequately identify the location of the calling party.

Phones are not explicitly required to have GPS hardware built in but it would be pretty hard to find a newer model without the feature due to app reliance and other customer factors.

Harvey, if you had a Droid Max then you did have a GPS phone likely running in a location mode which led you to believe otherwise. Here is the specs for that phone.

Comms
WLAN - Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac, dual-band, hotspot, DLNA
Bluetooth - v4.0, A2DP, EDR, LE
GPS - Yes, with A-GPS, GLONASS
NFC - Yes
Radio - No
USB - microUSB v2.0

Phones of course can use GPS, tower triangulation, and WIFI location as a complete source group of location data and may juggle the inputs based on how you have it configured or how the phone is simply programmed to go about that task. The increased user control of GPS hardware functionality is a more recent development across more phone platforms and is driven by folks like us using apps for disconnected navigation tasks.

Tablets, DO NOT have the save E911 location requirements largely because they are not making 911 calls so the builders can go a little more lax on the GPS hardware inclusion which is why you can still find tablets without GPS hardware onboard with relative ease. Check the spec sheet and/or dig through the menus to find it yourself.

Alright, back to backups in the next post,

Greg

 

[Aurelia]

We run Navionics (have tested others) on a couple of Samsung phones plus a google tablet in disconnected modes but we also use a couple Garmin 78 GPS units as well.

The important differences between a phone/tablet and the above mentioned Garmin GPS, at least as I see them with my experience using both.


Tablet/phone

- Not typically waterproof or floating WITHOUT a case that usually hinders access or useabliliy in some way
- No waterproof method to keep it connected to power which is needed for long term usage
- Not natively designed for resistance to significant drops and vibration intensities (motorcycle is the worst)
- Touch screens are more challenging if you wear gloves during use (special gloves help a bit)
- Navigation apps are very easy to use


GPSmap 78 series

- 20+ hours of battery life on common consumer batteries
- Features waterproof and highly corrosion resistant power/data connection on back of unit.
- Native mapping functionality with extremely limited vulnerablities to network, operating system, or accessory software instabilities
- Glove friendly interface buttons
- Designed for outdoor navigation (imagine that!)
- Navigation features require slightly more practice to be easy to use when compared to good mobile apps

I have been juggling these devices/uses since they have existed and will give some personal use case examples.

Boating:
Phone - tablet based co-pilot navigation device and loaded on phones for fun and backup to backups
Garmin - running backup whenever the boat runs for zoomed-in, detailed chart view at helm, and low power draw anchor alarm funtion

Hiking:
Phone - navigation in good weather for limited day trip use, picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - for multi-day trips or bad weather or when my life or others is more tied to the results

Mountaineering:
Phone - picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - for multi-day trips or bad weather or when my life or others is more tied to the results

Sea Kayaking:
Phone - picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - always, and in any conditions

Car navigation:
Phone - whenever possible when coverage is available (hopefully in the hands of a non-driver)
Garmin type - when phone has no coverage or I need to run it while driving (takes less focus)

Motorcycle navigation:
Phone - only when parked (rest stop) and as a map/services search tool for finding info when coverage is available
Garmin - at all times when moving or stopped for primary navigation and tracking

Casual - If you do your thing only in nice weather, for short periods, and the reliability of results is not terribly important, use your phone/tablet
Intense - If you do your thing in any weather, for long periods, and the reliablity of results could be a safety factor, use a purpose built device

Hearing the example of using a phone for navigating on a Harley made me chuckle and refers back to the casual example above.

I support people (at work) trying to make one, do the work of the other, and see the failures. Phones and tablets are overall much more capable travel tools, but just like our boats, "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Is a phone for navigation acceptable? The dry protection of our wonderful C-Dory cabins make them pretty darn feasible and acceptable enough for many owners.

But, I still need the master sometimes,

Greg

 

[hardee]

Greg, Thanks for all the details. If it, (the Motorola Droid Max) had a GPS in it then the phone must not have been set up for it to work, as in roaming off so I wouldn't be using Canadian towers when running around on the fringes. However, that would not have been the case in Colorado and New Mexico, unless the GPS was turned off permanently somehow.

I did multiple trips into the Verizon store and several calls to Motorola tech support with no perceptible change in "GPS" function. Could have something to do with my less than savvy computer skills.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Kushtaka]

My rig consists of a newer plotter/sounder, a slightly older, but still functional and reliable plotter GPS wired, and at least one (but usually two) of the workhorse Garmin GPS76Csx units that have been reliable for ten years. The garmin units have one with nav charts and one with topo maps, so if I go to shore I take the topo, on the water, tend to use the nav.

I have been inherently untrustful of my phone and its ability to be a good GPS, so I started using it exclusively, in waters I knew, and set my other units to a dark screen (combo MFD set to sonar only), periodically checking the phone and tablet against my marine electronics.

The phones and tablets have surprised me in their ability to work well with most of the software available. I tried several apps and found that they were, in some cases, more helpful thank my plotters. There is some stunning bottom detail available on some of the apps out there containing detail missed in marine charts.

For example, with the app "Marine Navigation" I found some very very detailed bottom maps (they offer multiple basemaps, the one I'm refering to is "Ocean Map") that I used to find little tiny holes and trenches to fish that aren't on any other maps I have. Most of these spots were productive, and all small contours and details were verified by the sounder. I was just blown away.

Some thoughts on their application:

Lifeproof cases (floating!) are a great idea.

You will probably have your screen brightness on high all the time, have a proper charger (as in the factory supplied charger) and an adequate power supply to it and keep your unit plugged in any timeit is possible to do so, even if the batteries are full. The GPS and the bright screen will eat up battery so quickly (on some devices the battery will drain with GPS on and a bright screen, even when plugged in) that you will find it draining even when plugged in. If you wait until the battery is low before you plug it in you may end up with a dead unit.

The devices I've used are iPhone 3Gs, 4G, 6s Plus, iPad 2, Air, Samsung Galaxy S5.

The Samsung is also sorta waterproof on its own, or it was.

The newer sounders/plotters are now communicating with devices directly as well. Thus, you may have that redundant functionality built in to your next sounder purchase. I am getting delivery on the smallest WIFI ready Lowrance (HDS7 Gen3) today. I can't wait to see what the ability to use the old ipad/phone in the nav system does. Might be nice!