Anybody using AGM battery with Yamaha OB's

Matt said:
".....Now, if we all wanted to chip into Harvey's battery purchase to support an experiment in AGM battery use with small outboards, I'm sure he would be happy to provide progress reports."
Click to expand...

Hey Matt, I Luv ya :thup

I was hoping that that experiment had already been done. Now I am thinking that the home work has been done instead. The big guys get away with it because their OB charge systems are capable of putting out the higher charge voltage, is the best of my understanding.

I think this one has been decided. Looks like I am going to be looking into a generator setup next. the whole idea is, as you stated, to be able to spend time on the hook, not on the dock.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Actually the problem is not to the battery but the voltage regulator going out..... mine failed the first time after I installed new batterys....

I do agree that most of the time I keep the batterys charged from the built in charger and rarely am away from 110v long enough to need a full heavy charge for a sustained time to bring up a low battery.. the time my voltage regulator failed was one of those rare times that the battery got low and required a full heavy charge... regulator was just not up to it.... I really think the motors need a genuine alternator..not a charging loop.

Joel
SEA3PO
 
hardee":2k3eqzod said:
Next question. Has anybody tried getting a group 29 into the lazerette (starbd, and port) on a 22 Cruiser? My boat is in the shop in Port Townsend and I am trying to do this via remote control. Interstate makes a wet cell, Marine/RV "Deep Cycle Cranking" battery (#SRM-29) with the power requirements I am looking for, but I don't know if it will fit into the hole. The size is 13" x 6 3/4" x 10"high.

Thanks again,

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Click to expand...

Harvey the hatch on my 07 is 11 3/8 x 8 1/2 by 11 1/2 deep I think I
was told that a group 24 was the largest that would fit. But 2 group 24's will fit with one side ways to the rear and one length wise on the inboard side.
 
"Undercharging" will occur if there is insufficient current output no matter if you use AGM or flooded lead acid batteries. If the boat is not able to maintain the needed charge with only the engines, there is the option of using a 1000 watt Honda generator, or solar cells to give the additional power.

In reality, many cruisers will anchor for a couple of days, and then tie up to a marina for a day--for showers, water, etc. This gives a chance to top off the batteries.

Even with big alternators, unless the engine is running long hours, batteries will often only come to 80 to 90% charge capacity. They are topped off when the genset or shore power is used.

In this specific instance, if the boat is not kept in a slip or at home--left in a stroage lot, then a solar panel will be best. The battery will not be damaged by a few days of sub optimal charge. In fact this is an argument for more batteries. You want to keep the battery from draining to less than 12.2 volts or 50% of its capacity. As I understand it, the AGM batteries are so that they can be put in the cabin. This is one of the good justifications for AGM batteries.
 
Dr Bob said:
"In fact this is an argument for more batteries. You want to keep the battery from draining to less than 12.2 volts or 50% of its capacity. As I understand it, the AGM batteries are so that they can be put in the cabin. This is one of the good justifications for AGM batteries."
Click to expand...

This is what I was intending to do. AGM in the V-birth and to keep all the batteries simular, putting 1 AGM into each lazarette, so that all the batteries would be the same. Now I am running into that "fact" that my '04 Yami 40's will not work with the AGM's, so it looks like I am forced to go back to the flooded or wet cells. Adding more batteries of the wet version up in the V-birth area is not, IMHO, a good idea, so it looks like I get to pick the lesser of two evils: Wet cells inside, or a generator on board to run all night, ( to power two CPAP machines at about 5 amps/hour.) As my neighbor Paul (JC Lately) said, (regarding our discussions of twins vs single OB power) "I rest my case."

Now I am looking for a battery squeezer. :xnaughty

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
I personally would go with the AGM batteries: try and keep them charged up as much as possible at home or at the dock. I suspect that you are not out more than one or two nights at a time the majority of the trips. Is the 5 amps at 12 volts? Is it for each machine? What do you figure the amount of power you will use each night total for the c PAP machines?

I think that the answer " however from my experience, batteries never last more then 24/36 months anyway. They seem to have a switch that turns them dead. " from West marine is a bit far out. West Marine often gets batteries back at the end of the warantee because of their liberal exchange policy, Most boaters abuse batteries. I find that my batteries last at least 4 to 5 years--and that is with heavy use.

Now having said all about the AGM and wet cell inside the cabin--I have been sailing with wet cells inside the cabins of my boat from 1961 until about 2000, when I went over to AGM's We had over 1000 amp hours of wet cells in our motor sailers which were open to the pilot house and heavily used them each day with charging rates of up to 300 amps an hour. They were ventillated well, but never caused a problem.
 
The following is from the brochure on the Sears AGM batteries

"At room temperature charge at 30 to 40 amps with maximum voltage of 14.7 for 8 hours float charge at 13.6 volts."

This would lead you to believe that the stock 20 Amp Guest chargers C-Dory installs maynot be adequate and an upgrade to a larger charger might be in order. I think some have done this already. My stock charger has three outputs one 10 amp and two 5 amps. The two 5 amps can be tied together for 10 amps total. I have mine configured so the 10 Amp circuit goes to the start battery and the two 5 amp circuits are tied together and going to the two group 24 agm's which are parralled. Incidently Sear calls thier group 24 size "34M" and they are not as tall as the standard group 24 lead acid battery. I haven't been able to get out and test the system but when I'm able I'll report how it works. The plus for me with the AGM's is it's virtually impossible to get to the batteries to service them when two are put in the lazarrette. The Sears AGM group 24s are $189 and the group 31 is $239 which is a pretty significant difference over lead acid but the three year full replacement warranty may make it worthwhile. They claim they can be safely discharged at a much lower value (10.5 volts) than lead acid batteries but hopefully I won't be testing this feature.
 
Looks like we can fit Interstate G-29s, so one can go on each side. Marine /RV Deep Cycle type (Interstate number SRM-29 with lots of power. 675 CCA, 845 MCA, and 210 Reserve Capacity. That all equals 21 hours at 5 amps or 6.4 at 15 amps, which will be about 9 hours of CPAP time for both machines. Only a hair larger than a group 27 with considerable more punch, both at the battery :thup and in the wallet :thdown Over all making for a better nights sleep, and getting to anchor out now = priceless. :) :D =two very happy CPAPers.

I must say, it is not the AGM, and I will be looking at them again in a year or 5 (or 6) and we will see what has transpired by then. I still think they are the ideal battery for the C-Dory Cruiser. (Come on Yamaha, get in line)

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
We do have a 18 month free replacement on the SeaVolt AGM batteries and a five year pro-rated warranty and you are correct West Marine stands behind anything that we sell.
Click to expand...


Harvey, Looks like WM will back your experiment with a new battery if it doesn't work! I'd go for the AGMs. In reality, in our waters, you'll probably be at a dock with power 33%-50% of the time. You can always mooch a little generator time from your friends on the TC.
 
Have read this thread with much interest. We have twin Honda 40's and in spring 2006 switched from the wet cell to AGM batteries, so that is what batteries we used on our 2007 Alaska wilderness cruise. On that cruise up until the time the charge coil went out on one of the motors had no problems with batteries keeping charged and this was with no charging at docks and one six day outing where we slow cruised much of the time on one motor. Wallas was running most of the time along with the other electronics. Didn't have to use the Honda 2000 generator to keep up the batteries until we lost the charge coil on the one motor. Went the rest of cruise using the generator and the one motor to keep the batteries up. The last 90 miles up the Lynn Canal was on only the motor without a charge coil using the generator on the go to keep batteries up.

When these batteries finally go will replace with another set of AGM's. Correct me if wrong but my understanding is with them there is no damage or lessoning of the battery life by going under the 50% charge. There ability to do double duty as cranking and deep cycle was my main reason for switching from the wet cell to them and on a cruise I switch back and forth between the batteries for there use as house or for engine cranking.

Harvey to bad you can't use them with your Yami's they sure have worked well so far with the Honda's.

Jay
 
Jay & Harvey -- I looked up the specs of the Honda 40 and it also has a 10 amp charging alternator -- identical to the Yamaha.

Warren
 
Roger (Dreamer), Thanks for the kind offer on the generator time. In reality, you are probably close about the use,
at a dock with power 33%-50% of the time
Click to expand...
. Between this battery change and the next one I am going to upgrade the charging system, so that it can adequately charge the AGM's at the dock or with a generator and that will also give some time for some more and braver souls to do some experimenting.

Warren (Doryman), Thanks for making that charging comparison. I guess it is also the type of charging circuit that Yamaha runs not just the low voltage, (according to tech support from Lifeline Batteries) in S. Cal. who would have sold me the bats but said they would probably need replacing in a year if I only put on a hundred hours on the boat.

Jay (Hunkydory), I missed if you have 2 or 3 batteries. I was looking to put 2 AGM's on the stern and one in the V-Birth, (AGM =no fumes) I don't know that they will go down to 50%OK, but I do know that the number of Discharges is around double of what the wet cells will survive. And, they will tolerate a deeper discharge, however they like high higher voltage charge after that deep discharge in order to regain a full charge.

I am really interested in 1. How long your current batteries last. and 2. What caused
the charge coil to go out on one of the motors
Click to expand...
. There ar probably a dozen things that could have been, but I know of two possibles. Moving the 1-2-Off-Both switch with the engines running, or the charge system from one engine seeing the other and cycling on and off in rapid repitition.

Mind you I am not a mechanic, engineer, or electrician, so I am parroting this from what I have heard or read, learning about my system. (The make before break switch is a whole nother issue). When I approached my mechanic with that question he said he wouldn't do it if it was his boat. Since it seem like a logical thing to do and doesn't seem to hard I may do it on my own, after I do some future research.

Thanks everybody for the help, gracious offers, and learning experience. On we go, the more the marrier.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
This discussion has me wondering about my battery situation. One Lead acid went dead and I had an AGM27 that I replaced it with.Is it a problem having one AGM and one lead acid? It's a CC23 with Honda135. Ignorance is bliss until something goes wrong.
 
I believe mixing battery types is probably a mistake, although there may be sophisticated (and expensive) chargers that can accommodate differing types. I have AGMs and had Les install a better charger than came with the boat precisely so that the charger can be set for AGMs and can supply enough charge from the generator or shore power.

The question of charging from my two Yamaha F50s is another issue - one I'm still not clear on. Ironically, I chose the Yamahas over Hondas in part because (in 2006, at least) equivalent sized Yamis had bigger alternators (17 amps versus 10 for the Honda). I think part of what's going on here is comparing across makes, models, and years. I think, for instance, both Honda and Yamaha have increased amp output in some of their models as they have gone from carburetors to EFI.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking since I'm 6 months into a significant investment in these AGMs, but I'm in Thataway Bob's camp on this and am reasonably confident that my set up will work. I have a good charger, constant shore power when at home, and a generator I can carry. So even on extended trips I am optimistic about keeping the batteries in good shape.
 
Harvey,

Who's working on your boat in PT? Is it still here? When you put her in, we ought to make the coffee run to Nordland!

I have been doing a lot of studying of batteries in the last few years. I first had an electric conversion car (old VW Rabbit truck) and now have a Zenn NEV. These cars teach you batteries!

I might say my knowledge isn't wholly relevant to marine use. It is primarily in deep cycle, high amp usage. My first car had open flooded lead acid. Ventilation was good, so it didn't matter if they boiled a bit for equilization charges. The Zenn car, which has batteries inside the car has Discover EV-31 AGM's. I think they cost around $350 each. I am not dazzled by them and may well at replacement time go to floodies, with an active ventilation system when charging.

The general wisdom is that gel or AGMs are good where the battery is not ventilated, or where the battery experiences a lot of bouncing. The bad news about them is that they need their own charging algorithm, they are short lived compared to lead acid, and they cost way too much. Lead acid is your best buy, by far.

For your proposed use, Harvey, with batteries in the bow with no ventilation, maybe there is an argument. Downside is that you will need very long cables. Putting batteries in the stern will be usually the best answer, using SLA (sealed) batteries. Interstate is a decent brand. Exides will cost less and last less time (may be okay trade off if you are someone who watches the battery condition). Trojans are considered the best of the lower cost batteries.

Last spring I had a weak house battery, so I moved the better engine battery to the house position, and put a nice Trojan in the engine position. I watch them to be sure they are charging properly.

Dave
 
More...

I think the one most important thing I have learned about my boat batteries is that I need to charge them AFTER using the boat, on the trailer at home.

When I finish for the day, I tilt the engine up for trailering, then tip it down at home to drain. Earlier engine needed starting for flushing - even worse. So by the time you get home, your engine battery is slightly discharged. The house battery, if you didn't charge with the engine, might be a little low. Lead acid self discharges as I recall 3% a month. Letting your battery sit in a discharged condition will significantly shorten its life.

I'll give a plug for the absolute best relatively inexpensive 12V smart charger I know. It is the BatteryMinder 12248. I use mine a LOT, and have even bought a second one. This is the lowest cost charger with temperature compensation. It will charge at 2-4-8 amps, and has algorithms for lead, gel and AGM's. They are durable and well sealed (and compact). You can get them from Pacific Battery for $120, including the temp compensation hookup.

Dave
 
There are several sites which have very good information on batteries--and one of these deals with off the grid use where there is daily drain and re-use.

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

AGM batteries and Gel Cel batteries cannot be equated--and although the lead acid battery is more economical to purchase and to run, it is not necessarily a longer lived battery.

The deeper you discharge a battery (either lead acid or AGM) the shorter its life span. If you discharge 80% regularly, the battery will last half the cycles of a 50% discharged battery--and if you only discharge 20% it will last many times longer than a 50% discharged battery. Just being an AGM does not make it able have a longer life with deep discharge. An AGM can take a higher rate of charge, but with our C Dories, this is not usually a feature we need.

Yes, it is best to top off your batteries with a charger after using the boat. But I get 4 years or more use of batteries without topping off. I also agree that the Battery Minder is an excellent charger (but it is not a marine charger)--and the pulse feature prevents sulfation.

Also I find that if you have a boat in storage, that a solar cell will keep that battery fully charged.
 
Bob, thanks for the great link. I went there and while I was reading the FAQ I checked the numbers on my ProSine control panel. It says that my house battery has 13.2 volts. However, the FAQ says 100% charge is 12.7 volts. Do I have more than 100% charge? Or if they are apples and oranges numbers, how do I find out the voltage that the FAQ is referring to?

Thanks,
Warren
 
Hi Warren,

For that 12.7V to be the right indicator of a full charge the battery has to have no load on it, and to have been sitting for maybe 24 hours since the charge completed. If the charger is still connected or has been so recently the voltage will be higher. That's why folks who want to know the state of charge of their house bank like the amp-hour meters like the Link from Xantrex.
 
Back
Top