Wow! This is a tough one, something we've encountered before, but only with varying degrees of success.
Actually, I think we're all getting closer to finding a solution here, and I'd like to see if we're all thinking alike, as I feel these are recurring problems with most windlasses, not entirely unique to the models you're using.
First off, let me say that I don't think there's anything more temperamental and difficult to keep working optimally than these combination rode windlass models that try to handle both rope and chain on a single gypsy.
It seems evident from reading the above posts and many others that there are a number of problems that make the typical combination windlass difficult engineer and operate consistently.
First, there is the very difficult task of getting a gypsy to have both effective rope grasping qualities ("teeth") and also have effective pockets for gripping the chain links on the same wheel or gypsy.
Secondly, add to this the problem that the typical horizontal windlass only has a 90 degree rode contact area, and the typical vertical style only about 180 degrees, and our grip problem becomes magnified.
Then, thirdly, there's the issue of how to help keep the rode in contact with the gypsy. This is usually at least partially solved with addition of the Fleming (pressure finger), but getting the correct tension to hold both rope and chain and also preventing the rode from jumping out of the contact zone and/or jamming is another engineering feat in itself.
Next, we encounter the problem of having to choose the right rope for the job. Either too stiff or too soft a rope can be a problem. Too soft a rope leads to easy jamming in the gypsy teeth and/or Fleming, and too stiff a rope leads to one that jumps out of the gypsy/Fleming pathway on it's own volition. Complicating this is that each windlass model has it's own rope preferences.
Finally, we have to figure out how to pass the rope/chain splice with it's much larger and bulging diameter and stiffness though the system, and another problem area emerges.
Clearly, things are getting a bit complicated and hard to find simple solutions for. Maybe it's time to reflect a bit.
Thinking about the above issues, one can see that what is probably needed is some way to keep uniform tension on the rode as it's fed into the gypsy from BOTH SIDES: forward of the gypsy toward the bow roller, and behind or below the gypsy from the rode locker. Another way of saying this is to say that the typical combination rode windlass just doesn't have enough parts to do the job correctly!
What would probably work best would be a multiple capstan/idler wheel arrangement, perhaps approaching a serpentine pathway which would insure full and firm contact on the gypsy and uniform tension throughout the drive system. However, we're talking small boats here, not ones with room for elaborate engineering solutions.
Adding a single extra roller like several of you have suggested would seem like a very valuable step in the right direction, perhaps solving some of the problems outright. Would it be advantageous to add some resistance to the roller's turning to help maintain uniform tension? Could a fairlead or roller be added below deck to help add tension on that side of the gypsy? How do we get the entire system to flow smoothly and not jam? At least now we can agree on what's wrong and/or why things don't always work the way they should.
Unfortunately, this whole problem is complicated grossly when adding a "Free Fall" system with it's disengaging clutch and high speed, free wheeling rode dropping operation. Then, as Richard W points out, worse yet has been to add into the design a clutch disengagement device which offsets the gypsy from the Fleming, defeating most all of the purpose for which the pressure finger was designed for in the first place! Design defect indeed! How will we get the Fleming to follow the gypsy during the disengagement? ??????
It looks like we need to find a supple rope, chain, and splice that will all pass through some "checkpoints" or fairleads fore and aft of the gypsy which will not only supply direction to the rode, but also provide constant tension and accomodate the starting and stopping surges. I think it's time to experiment and test. At least we'll find out if we're on the right track!
I think it's important to note that what also complicates this whole set of problems is that each individual combination of windlass model, anchor, bow roller, and rode is slightly different than all the others and therefore requires a unique solution. :amgry
I fought these same problems for a year or more myself, and finally decided that one simple solution was 1) to use all chain in the commonly used part of the rode (first 100 feet), 2) to power the rode both down and up, and 3) to make a smaller diameter chain/rope splice to pass through the windlass more easily. {Some detailed advantages of the all chain system are mentioned below from another thread.)
Obviously this is an ongoing development project. We need those photos of Levity's and Richard W's set ups, and I'll include below a description of a similar arrangement as soon as I can find it.
Thanks for allowing me to sort this out with you. Maybe we can find some better solutions by working and thinking together on a very difficult problem.
Joe. :teeth :thup
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All chain advantages:
I have mentioned that I have an all-chain rode on my CD-22 many times.
Actually, it's 100 feet of 1/4" GS40 High Test chain followed by 150 feet of 1/2" three-strand Nylon rope, the rope being for more traditional anchoring situations where more scope is possible.
However, since I usually anchor in a steep-sided inland lake, I can't get the desired 5:1 or more scope ratios recommended for anchoring, so the solution that works is to use an lot of chain and an oversized anchor to hook up as quickly as possible and to minimize the rode length so as to keep the boat off the shore in narrow inlets.
To that end, the 100 foot of chain weighs 74 lbs, and the Fortress FX-16, while only weighing 10 lbs, is size-intended for 33-38 foot boats.
One real positive advantage of the all-chain rode is that the boat "searches" or wanders much less at anchor in the shifting winds as compared to how much it would with a long and light section of rope and a short chain. This is particularly advantageous in those narrow anchorages.
Another advantage is that the windlass gypsy and the chain have ZERO SLIPPAGE as compared with using rope. Essentially, you have a chain and a sprocket, not a friction tooth and rope arrangement. The all chain rode does not ever slip out of the guidance system, anywhere! And it resists twisting, spinning the anchor around upon retrieval to eliminate any twisting in the chain.
The chain also brings less water aboard when it is retrieved as compared to a saturated rope.
I originally had some problems passing the larger diameter rope to chain splice with my Quick Aries 500 windlass, but solved the problem by inventing my own splicing technique. Discussion
HERE.
Using 100 feet of chain up front enables me to anchor most all the time without getting down to the rope section.
It's been a great addition to my boat, and helped solve several problems at once, and additionally helps to hold the bow down in chop, necessitating less gas wasting bow down trim with the motor.
This system works for me where I boat, but, as they say, YMMV! (Your Mileage May Vary)
