Anchor is next on the checklist...

[garyf]

Continuing with the revival of C-Story...

Apparently my dad wasn't big on anchoring - no windlass, no chain/rode - he had a couple Danforth-type anchors stashed in the garage (two different sizes and I don't know the sizes at the moment... I'll have to go to storage and check).

I've read through many of the threads in this section.

Looks like the Lewmar 700 is most popular windlass? Anyone want to chime in on that?

I looked at Defender and their pre-built chain/rode packages have a lot less chain than I'd like... based on the comments here, I'm thinking the 70 foot ballpark would be good for chain? I see a couple people talking about going all chain? Is that just to work better in the windlass or ?

Is there a better supplier for chain/rode than Defender? Ideally, I'd love to find a supplier that either has something with more chain on hand as a prebuilt package, or put it together to my specs with a high quality splice... and even better if they'd paint/mark the last 20-25 ft of chain for me (and deliver fairly quickly??)

I peeked into the chain locker and it appears that it's never been touched. I've seen comments and pictures regarding the installation of a drain, but haven't run across anything regarding the standard (or best) way to attach the rode in the locker - did I miss conversation and/or pictures on that somewhere?

Unlike my dad, I can imagine times I'd want to anchor for sure... and I also consider it a safety item.

You guys are doing a great job helping me spend my money :lol: :lol: I appreciate the help!!

Oh - and should I just go with one of the anchors my dad has already, or is there a good argument to get something else? I won't have to deal with reefs... I'll mostly be anchoring in fairly shallow water in freshwater lakes and reservoirs... possibly in Sacramento or American river, delta, BF Bay...

 

[journey on]

Well, this is going to be a long drawn out thread. So, I'll get my comments in first.

First, I think the Danforth is a good all around anchor. It sets well in most any surface, will store on your bow and holds a heavy load. Another plus is you already have one. And I've tried a lot of different anchors. I've used a CQR, claw and a Ronca aas well as a Danforth. I still think the hi-test Danforth is the best of all for Calif.

If you buy the Lewmar 700 windlass, buy the horizontal one so that the dirt, sand, mud doesn't fall off on the chaincase. I lost a vertical 600 and the sand had fallen into the gearcase and ground everything up. The factory has changed from the vertical to the horizontal.

70 ft of chain is good. I have/had 70' and the anchor set and held well. Buy the chain and road and then either splice them yourself ( lots of info on the internet,) or take them to West marine and have them splice it.

Good luck.

Boris

 

[thataway]

There are a number of places which will do splices and chain to. your length. It is nice to learn to do the splice yourself. I you do much anchoring you will end for end your rode periodically. SECO South is one place mentioned in The Hull Truth as making custom rotes at a decent price. I have never used them. Defender will do custom splices. I like to go with name brand line: Sampson, Yale, New England Ropes, etc

Some go with 100 feet or more chain. It puts a lot of weight way up in the bow. It is good going into chop--but going down waves it is safer not to have as much weight there. It does work well with a windlass, and I believe the Lewmar 700 is the best "buy".

I have 50' of chain, and 300 feet of 8 plait braid--I do my own splices. I did a tutorial and links on it in the past. 70 feet of chain would be reasonable. In the Delta and Calif. Rivers 70' would be over kill most of the time--even in the tidal areas.

The chain or rope rode should be terminated by its "bitter end" inside the chain locker, so you cannot accedently run it all out. there are several ways. There maybe an eye screwed onto the back of the bow eye--that is the proper point to terminate. If there is no eye there and you cannot find one to fit the thread, then just a piece of 1 x 2 wood, about 12" long will work. Tie a piece of light line onto it and then secure this to the end of the rode. I like to make a tight eye splice in the bitter end to run the lighter line thru. I like to use several passes of 1/8" line, and this can be cut easily if you have to "cut and run". This would be most unusual for a C dory, but it would allow you to tie a fender to the end of the line.

Some people shackle the bitter end to the eye in the locker. But the piece of wood works fine.

3 strand rope is the normal, but you can get about 50 to 100% more line in the same area with the 8 plait. Be careful, there are many places which sell inferior Chinese chain and rope. Although it is cheaper to start, these cheaper ropes will harden, heckle, and not wear will. The cheaper chains will rust. For the 700 you want 1/4" G 4 Hi Test chain. The link size makes a difference for the windless chain gypsy or wheel.

You can easily paint marks on the chain--I use colored electrical ties at various points. It is good to have some very good mark just before the anchor is going to come over the bow roller.

Anchors: The genuine anchors --such as Danforth or Fortress are better than the knock offs. The "Danforth pattern, is just the angle of the flue (32*) with the shank. many of the knock offs are sheet metal, and work OK. The High Test Danforth and Fortress are far better. They have "T" shaped inner edges of the fluke and forged materials. Vs sheet metal bent on a brake. I think the very best anchor is one of the 3rd or 4th generations, such as Vulcan, Ronca, Manson Supreme. A good Danforth or Fortress is excellent for the Bay and Delta, most rivers with sand bottoms. I carry several anchors. Including two small Fortress for stern, one large Fortress for Bow and a Delta. The boat came with the Delta, or I would have bought a Ronca or Vulcan. Try the Danforth knock offs you have and see how they work on day trips. You want the good anchor when you are sleeping at night, and the wind pipes up to 50 knots!!

 

[journey on]

I hope that you'll read another post from me. But, anyway, here goes.

I finally found a post on splicing rode to chain: chain to rope tapered splice. Sea Wolf mentioned a way or splicing the rope to chain that weaves the rope through the chain instead of doubling it back. When I replaced the windlass on Journey On I found that doubling the rope back on itself gave a splice that would not go through the 700 smoothly. I then tried Sea Wolf's splice and it both held and went through the windlass smoothly. It has been used for 6-7 years now, so I'm sure it'll hold.

Here's the other splice method: Chain to rope 2.

Just thought I'd mention it, your choice. It's nice to pull up road without going to the bow.

Boris

 

[garyf]

I hope that you'll read another post from me. But, anyway, here goes.

Haha - of course I'll read another post from you! I'm in heavy duty learn mode right now... would much rather learn from the wisdom y'all have picked up over the years and minimize the mistakes I make on my own (I'm sure there will be plenty as it is).

Good info on the splices - I'll have a good look. Bob's encouraging me to take the job on myself as well, so maybe that's the best idea.

 

[C-Val]

I had a Danforth anchor on and changed it over to a Manson
My Danforth pulled out and collapsed one night with the turning of the tide.
I couldn’t find my boat for awhile in the morning. Luckily no damage.
I since learned it is best as an anchor for one directional pull.
I still have it on-board but it is my spare or a day anchor

 

[Chester]

Just a thought. I had a Rocna but soon tired of the rollbar sticking up in my line of sight. I went to a 15# Manson Boss without the rollbar and am a happier camper for it.
The bail on the anchor roller was not big enough for the new anchor so I fabricated a new one from 1" x 1/8" aluminum stock from the hardware store with a hacksaw and a drill. EZ.

 

[thataway]

Just a thought. I had a Rocna but soon tired of the rollbar sticking up in my line of sight. I went to a 15# Manson Boss without the rollbar and am a happier camper for it.
The bail on the anchor roller was not big enough for the new anchor so I fabricated a new one from 1" x 1/8" aluminum stock from the hardware store with a hacksaw and a drill. EZ.

Unfortunately the Boss anchor seems to no longer be made. I don't know why. I had one and it was excellent. The Vulcan is very similar, and would be my choice.

I have never used the weave thru the chain splice. This is also called the "Shovel splice" If I used it I would serve with some good Dacron light line to secure the strands to the links. My concern would be the holding of the splice in a heavy blow.

This is what Practical Sailor has to say about the "Shovel Splice":

The simplest to make, this splice also the weakest and the least friendly to windlasses. It simply would not pass through the Lewmar V700 windlass on our test boat. Its also pretty weak, only about 70 percent of the strength of the rope, and we wonder how long the lashings holding it together will last. We suppose it could be used for a rode that was retrieved manually, but even so its a mess, always bringing up mud.

Bottom line: The shovel splice has proponents, and it still appears in some textbooks, but in our view it is not a viable option.

The secret to a good "eye" splice with the Lewmar windlass, is that the splice eye basically is only the diameter of the chain--and very tight. Then after 2 or 3 really tight tucks a gradual taper over 4 to 6 times is achieved. (Cut 1/3 the fibers, half the hose remaining etc is a 3 truck taper. A 4 tuck would start with cut 1/4 of the strands in each lay--then 1/4 each tuck. Also after a splice is made and tapered, first rub it between your hands, and then put on the floor and rub with your foot. This smooths out the splice. As you cut each tuck, seal the end with a hot knife (I use a flat blade in a 140 watt soldering gun. but A cigarette lighter or small propane torch can be used. You have to press it flat when still hot with a piece of metal.

The issue with the Danforth pulling free and at times not setting is well known. There are several work arounds. One is to use several feet of heavy chain near the anchor, to keep the anchor engaged in the sea bed as the pull reverses 180*.

Another is the Bahama Moore--that is two Danforth anchors are set 180* apart--both both lined up with the wind or current shifts. They can either both have rotes to the boat or have a swivel where the two rodes connect under water and then a 3rd line to the boat. This gets around the twisted lines which usually occur with several tidal changes.

A 3rd method is the Danforth hurricane moor, with 3 anchors set each at 120* of each other in a triangle. That way there is always pull close to +/- 30* of a direct set, which will keep all. of the anchors in place. I have only used this with severe storms. This also can lead to twisted rodes when time to pull up the hooks.

 

[garyf]

So I've got $1,600 sitting in my Defender cart at the moment... why the heck are counters so expensive? I'll pass on that for now... sounds like a good Arduino project for probably less than $100 (and fun to do).

I did reduce the chain to 60 ft... I think that will be plenty. 200 ft of Buccaneer Medallion 8 plait.

I'm going to run out to storage today and see what exactly I have for existing anchors before I close out the order.

Continued thanks to everyone!

 

[thataway]

On small boats chain counters are almost non-existant. Even most recreational larger vessels use some form of signal--plastic tabs, paint, yarn or electrical ties.

After awhile you know by the angle of the tight line at the bow, after the anchor is set and you back down against tt to be sure it will not drag, that you have about 7 to 1 scope ratio out. Don't forget to add in the 3' off the water of the bow and the amount of tide, if in tidal waters. Also first boat to anchor in an area sets precedent. If he is on one hook, the rest of the boats should also be on one hook, or in the C Dory you can get in shallow enough water to put out bow and stern, or bow and stern to the beach, a tree or rock. If to a tree, you should be using a strap to avoid damage to the tree.

It sounds as if you are off to a great start. Be sure and keep those extra lines which may already be on the boat for stern anchors.

One of my favorite places in the Dalt is "Locke Slough" just past Walnut Grove and the Trans Delta Canal. There you go bow to the bank of the old railroad, with a stern anchor out. This is on the Mokelumne River side, not the Sacramento River A side. I don't believe C Dory could not get thru the Trans Delta Canal, even if the sluice gates were open and water levels equal in the two river systems.

 

[garyf]

... and both anchors have "Danforth" on the shank, so I'm assuming they're actually Danforth brand instead of some knockoff?? I hope that's a reasonable assumption.

The larger one is a 12H, which upon looking it up confirms that it's a 12 pounder (and this one has Danforth (R) cast on the shank).

The smaller one is an s600... which looking up indicates that it's a 9 pounder. The "Danforth" on this one is stamped with no (R) that I can see (hard to read).

Both are in good condition.

So I'm thinking these are "good enough" for now and my anticipated uses? Mount the 12H on the bow and keep the s600 for a stern anchor? Is rope good enough for the stern, or should I really have some chain there too? I guess ideally I should have have some chain... but how important on a scale of 1-10? I already have a bucket full of rope (unknown length - but it's a lot) for the sea anchor / drogue he has... I'm thinking that can do double duty as rope for the stern if/when I use it.

 

[thataway]

The 12# is the High Tensile; the best of the Danforth Anchors. I owned one for over 40 years, and used it from the primary bow anchor on a 29 footer up to kedge boats as large as 62 feet, 65,000# off a cay in a beam wind of 40 knots! They hold if properly set--and you have no worry!

The other is one of the sheet metal with folded edge in the center, and still a good anchor-more a stern anchor. For the Delta that should suffice. I would probably pick up a Guardian (Fortress little sister ) or A Fortress in 7#. The only reason to add a Fortress is that it has the "mud" position, with the fluke angle increased to 45* as an option. This will hold better in poorly cohesive mud. If you want to go off shore (out to Farallon Islands, down to Half Moon Bay or to Bodega Bay) in the SF Bay Area, I would probably would add one of the generation 3 anchors--That would be better in rocks, or kelp on the bottom.

 

[journey on]

Several years ago I went through the Delta Cross Channel, which had a vertical clearance of 8 1/2 ft. Just to see if I could. Made it, but Judy wasn't happy. Journey On has the high radar arch and a $1300 radar on top of that. Had to lower the VHF antenna. So I know the height of Journey On is <8 1/2 ft above the waterline. We were going to the Meadows and were the only boat there. 30 years ago, it was packed; one guy had a helicopter pad on his boat.

If we're talking about the Sacramento Deepwater Canal, it's closed from the Sacramento River at the Sacramento end.

The Sea Wolf splice is a little different from the shovel hitch. Its for 3 strand line and has one of those strands brought around and woven through the rope. Giving one the rode. As I said, it's held through thick and thin for over 6 years, from the west side of Vancouver Island to the Sacramento River. If you're not comfortable with that splice, I would suggest that you take the chain and line to someone who does it for a living. The splice should be able to go through the windlass.

I'm not sure how one gets $1600 for windlass, chain, shackle and rope. $700 for the 700 windlass, $200 for the 1/4 ACCO chain and $200 for Buccaneer 1/2" 8 plait braid. If you have the anchors, and the 12H is what I have, that's only $1100. That's all I use to anchor.

Boris

 

[garyf]

Thanks so much, Bob... I really appreciate your wisdom and detailed answers.

Of course I appreciate everyone weighing in on the topic, too! I'm learning a lot here for sure.

One last question before I pull the trigger on the order - anchor lock or tensioner... ?

I see something like this: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=934492

Something like this: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=934473

And this: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=934454

They all seem(?) to do the same thing... or at least something similar. Am I right in thinking one of the three would be useful? Seems like it from the descriptions - or is it better to just tie off the chain/rode to a cleat?

The descriptions of two of the above seem to focus on preventing an accidental release of the anchor and/or keeping the anchor snugged against the roller when the anchor is not deployed, but the third one (2nd in the list above, I think) talks about taking the strain off of the windlass when the anchor *is* deployed. It seems like all three could potentially cover both bases (as could tying off to the cleat(s).

So which is best? Are these just a convenience or actually good to have / necessary?

 

[hardee]

All good info so far. I have used several types of anchors. My favorite, early on was a Fortress, but it was never really stress tested. I had a Delta (plow) for several years, but it did drag once. It was replaced with a Rocna. Has held in much higher stress situations than either of the others, and has never moved an inch after a good hard catch set.

ON the 60 feet of chain. Work probably work, but for me, the math of a 73 feet is so much easier. Run it out to the end, in 10 feet of water I have a 7 to 1 scope. Depending on conditions (tide mostly), I often will have a 5:1 scope or momentarily a 4:1 for part of a tide cycle, but most often that is acceptable with the full length of chain, anchor to bow.

I guess I am just to lazy to want to do the extra hard math for figuring out where I can anchor with less than 70 feet.

For your depths in the Delta, You will be fine with 60 but your brain will hurt more than mine :lol:

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[garyf]

I'm not sure how one gets $1600 for windlass, chain, shackle and rope. $700 for the 700 windlass, $200 for the 1/4 ACCO chain and $200 for Buccaneer 1/2" 8 plait braid. If you have the anchors, and the 12H is what I have, that's only $1100. That's all I use to anchor.

Boris

You're watching me closely, Boris!

The Pro-Fish 700 is $765. The Lewmar wireless remote kit is $288. A swivel is $50. And I added four new deck lines for $100 as well.

And now that Harvey reminded me about the easy math, I'm waffling on the chain length a bit - lol. I remember seeing that 7:1 ratio somewhere, but I had forgotten about that. I'm not sure if my OCD can deal with an order of 73' though... 70' or 75' feet sound so much better...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[garyf]

The Sea Wolf splice is a little different from the shovel hitch. Its for 3 strand line and has one of those strands brought around and woven through the rope. Giving one the rode. As I said, it's held through thick and thin for over 6 years, from the west side of Vancouver Island to the Sacramento River. If you're not comfortable with that splice, I would suggest that you take the chain and line to someone who does it for a living. The splice should be able to go through the windlass.

I'm wondering how to adapt that splice to the 8-plait line? But then again, I didn't hear any grumblings from Bob about his 8-plait splice hanging up in the windlass...

I hadn't brought it up yet because I know I have some time between putting in and receiving the order to do a little more research on that.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I have the anchor locks #1 and #2 in your post. #1 is set so that the retaining pin goes through the anchor shackle and effectively pins the anchor to the pulpit. I have no need for the chain tensioner type (#3) because the pin through the shackle holds everything down tight enough. Lock #2 holds the chain so that the anchor chain doesn't pull on the windlass when it is deployed. That may or may not be required depending on your setup. If have chain/rode and you always anchor with the chain completely deployed, you don't need it. If you use a bridle on your chain (usually recommended) it will take the strain and you don't need it. Really the only time that I use it is during a quick stop like lunch. I flip it down at night but all of the stain is taken by the bridle.

A couple things that I don't like about #2. I think that it is intended to flip back out of the way when retrieving the chain. However, the chain can bounce a little and flip it back down. Not much of a problem if don't have to let the chain back out during retrieval. I find that about 80% of the time I find a gob of mud/kelp on the anchor and need to go a little back and forth. Second thing is that the pin and catch plate don't have any type of retaining chain or any easy way to attach one. When you pull the pin, you will have both of items loose in your hands. Always makes me a little uncomfortable heading back to the helm. My #1 lock has a stainless retaining chain on the pin and everything stays on the fore deck.

Style #1 might not work with a swivel unless the pin is skinny enough to go through a link. I'm not a fan of swivels so it's not an issue for me.

Mark

 

[thataway]

On the subject of "chain stoppers" (first two)- or anchor chain tensioners (the last one). I have had boats which came with all of these at time or another. I took them off. I feel the best way of securing the anchor is with a line around the foredeck cleat and clipped to the anchor. The chain could be "stopped" with one of the stoppers, however this is never the correct way of "holding" the chain when anchored--nor is the chain wheel on the winch. You want a snubber system--I use two lighter lines (smaller than the main anchor rode.).

$ 288 for a wireless remote? If you are single handing,, then it may be worth it. I control the anchor from at the helm, with the up and down switch even when single handing. When I come into an anchorage I go around the entire area looking at the depth sounder and getting an idea of the bottom. I also observe how the other boats are anchored. Then I get near--up wind or up current of where I want to drop the hook. I go forward, and let the anchor restraining system loose. I go to the helm (my anchor is self launching), bump the anchor off the roller so it is just above the water, and when the stern is over the point where I want the anchor to be, I lower the anchor. Then watch the line as I back down slowly on the anchor. When about where I want to be--I take the boat out of gear and let it drift and see where the boat will be with the catenary effect of the chain. Then slowly give power in reverse to be sure it is set. When bringing up the anchor I slowly power to the anchor, (do not pull the boat on the rode/chain), until right over the anchor--then when the boat is directly over the anchor, use the boat to pull the anchor out--then windlass to bring it to the surface--(marked on the chain), and reverse to get any mud off, then pull up on the roller. Since most of this is done with the boat engine, and the up down switch is at the helm.. I have no ned for a remote--even single handing. In the 70 plus years of boating I have never had a remote for a windlass (either deck switches or helm switches). There areaa few cases where I can see it might be nice to have. But it is also one more thing to go wrong.

ON the 60 feet of chain. Work probably work, but for me, the math of a 73 feet is so much easier. Run it out to the end, in 10 feet of water I have a 7 to 1 scope.

Harvey, the distance of the bow roller off the water has to be taken into effect. It is 3 feet plus 10 feet with equals 13 feet x 7 = 91 feet, not 73 feet to achieve a 7:1 scope.

Boris good to hear you made it under the Sluice gates--you are correct that the clearance is a theoretical 8.5 feet at 0 tide. Tidal range can be up to 4 feet, plus river stage, so the window for that 8.5 feet is fairly narrow.

The 8 plait could be woven thru the chain as in the splice that Boris uses. Group the 8 strands into 4 bunches. Then weave thru each link in opposite direction. Again you are partially dependent on the sizing with light Dacron line. Yes, my long splice with the 8 plait goes thru my Lewmar 700 with no problem. If you were to have a vertical windless, such as Pat Anderson has--then I don't think it will work as well.

It looks as if you are wanting to buy a bunch of "stuff" at once. I would go as simple as possible to start with. The windlass, chain and nylon line. I was not aware of the Buccaneer Rope company, but it appears to be quality domestic rope made in Alabama. You may want to read up a bit more on swivels. The current boat has one--I have not seen any real advantage--and it is a potential point of failure. It was already there, so I left it. I had experimented with swivels on my large cruising boats, where I was anchoring hundreds of times a year--and decided against the use of swivels, although I had them aboard.

 

[garyf]

$ 288 for a wireless remote? If you are single handing,, then it may be worth it.

Yes, I wasn't happy about the price either... but I will likely single hand quite a bit... and I don't have an center windshield that opens so can't put the switch near the window. Again, definitely something that could be solved with a cheaper DIY solution, so maybe I'll defer that a bit.

It looks as if you are wanting to buy a bunch of "stuff" at once. I would go as simple as possible to start with. The windlass, chain and nylon line.

I can't say that I'm "wanting" to... but I can see where it might look that way. I'm just trying to anticipate everything I need so I can get it done and be happy with the final result. I'm not retired, but covid has my business shut down for now. When I am working, I don't have a ton of free time. If I do something "half way" now, it's hard to predict when I'll be able to finish it properly. I think we've all had those home handyman projects that require 10 trips to Lowe's. I hate that, and don't want that to happen... especially since I'm using mail order for a lot of this stuff. I don't have the experience and knowledge to know everything that can be put off until later (or forever). I really appreciate the willingness of you and others to share their thoughts and keep me in line.

I was not aware of the Buccaneer Rope company, but it appears to be quality domestic rope made in Alabama.

They supply the US Navy. I'm not sure if they're the only supplier (probably not)... but the last submarine I was on (at least) had Buccaneer lines. I saw the name on some packaging and I remember thinking it was a cool name.

As always - I really appreciate your input (as well as Marco and Boris and Harvey and everyone else). Such a valuable resource we have here. I also agree with and appreciate your "keep it simple, avoid adding additional points of failure" attitude. I really feel the same at heart... but again, don't have the experience to know what can be eliminated or deferred at this point.