All chain

C

captd

New member
Ordered 140 ft. of G4 HT chain. It will be in Ocala on Monday. This will accomplish several things. I believe I have to much weight in the stern. My top speed of 17 miles an hour dropped to ten miles an hour. Trim tabs will not pull bow down. The dink on the dive platform was a big contributor. Plus I added shot bags for ballast on the starboard side. So I will move those forward on that side . The water line shows it is out of balance. Plus I will put some more weight on the fore peak. I now have 4 anchors up front, three on the bow rail. I bought a new storm anchor. A 35 lb danforth. Had one fortress, one stainless grapple. With a Bruce on the main, which will be all chain. Chain will weigh 100lbs plus.

Some might wonder why anyone needs that many anchors. I found it easy to lose one by getting hung up on the bottom. Some bottoms need different types of anchor to hold. Had one wrapped around a prop while getting ready for a hurricane. I didn't do it. Thought I should point that out. The boat drug the bruce all across the harbour. It was the only one that did any good. Everything you have with you is dependant on how well your anchors hold. Including lives.

I sleep better at night with two anchors out in many cases.

Another reason for all chain is the rode has a habit of jumping out of the gypsy right when you need it the most. When it jumps out it is free spooling and if you are anchoring in close proximity to other boat it makes for a quick scramble up forward by Dee or my self to put it back in.
The joint between the rope and chain has always been a pain. Has gotten fuzzy already and has started to cause me to loose sleep.

Has anyone else go to all chain?
captd
 
I carry 300' of rode with 20' of chain. It should be adequate for most conditions, but thought I would carry a 5-10 lb. downrigger weight to attach about 5' back from the anchor for those real windy nights. Sort of a hassle to hook and unhook and may not be a good idea with some bottom conditions but seems like it would have the same effect as adding more chain.

In your case, I think it is an excellent idea to help balance your load as ballast and reduce your scope at anchor.
 
Have you explored ways to move your cargo or batteries around to help with trim as opposed to carrying dead weight? Something is wrong if you are carrying ballast to level your boat.

I'm sure other Ranger owners could offer some specific suggestions. You're burning more fuel and taking up more storage space just to carry that ballast.
 
I think you are carrying too much weight. When you carry extra weight like ballast you decrease your fuel mileage. I use 100 ft 1/4" chain and a FX-11 Fortress anchor (11 lbs) and it seems to hold here in Florida OK. At the price of fuel dump all of the extra stuff that you do not need for your cruise and cruise slowly. You might take a sensuous fat chick with you for ballast.
 
I agree that the Dinghy on weavers has an impact - during our cruise, I tried towing vs carrying on the swim step, and I think I saw 1-2 kts of difference (hard to tell with only a GPS for speed). The Trim Tabs work best at the high speed, and I couldn't really get there in a seaway, so yes, the boat's attitude wasn't quite right.

I thought we were really loaded, but it sounds like you are carrying even more. I haven't added weight on purpose, but a spare fuel tank & extra fresh water, along with all our provisions might have gotten close. We use the 22 lb Bruce as our main, with 30 ft chain and the rest nylon. I often sometimes wished for more chain so I could shorten scope in crowded harbors. But more typically we anchored alone, in protected coves, so scope wasn't a problem. I carry a duplicate 22 Bruce, along with a danforth as backups. All stowed in the bow, under the forward cushion along with the mask & fins. And even with these options, I couldn't get the anchor to set at one place - too much newspaper kelp on the bottom. My next choice will be one of those Deltas....

Mac
 
captd-

I've used 100 ft of G-4 HT chain (+200 ft of 1/2" 3-strand nylon) on my CD-22 for 4-5 years now. I have it coupled with a Fortress FX-16 and rigged on a S/L pivoting bow roller and operated by a Quick Aires 500 vertical windlass.

I went to the all-chain front end set up because of slippage problems with the large chain/rope splice when coming through the gypsy, but have since solved that problem with my own type of splice. LINK

I like the way the all chain holds the boat down much more tightly than with the mostly rope rode, which allows the boat to roam and seek the wind much more. Plus you can get by with a much shorter rode and scope ratio. This is particularly important in my inland lake situation where the lake walls are very steep and the coves narrow.

I also like the chain/gypsy mechanical arrangement (read chain/sprocket), which is much more secure than available than when the gypsy/rope combination is wrapped around the windlass.

As a side benefit, the boat cuts better into the waves and chop with the 74 lbs of chain up in the locker than it did with just 15 feet of chain which weighed about 12 lbs.

I'd have to change back over to mostly rope to anchor in really deep water, of course, but for now I'm very happy with this set up.

Enjoy your cruise!
Joe. :thup :teeth
 
As for scrambling up to the front at night if the gypsy starts slipping, it is considered best practice to tie the anchor line to the forward cleat after using the windlass to lower or raise it. The gypsy itself cannot be relied upon to hold an anchor line over time whether rope, chain, or both.

John
 
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth:

On my big (42, 46 and 62 foo)t cruising boats I had from 150 to 200 feet of chain, backed by 400 feet of three strand. I think that putting weight in the ends of a boat is a mistake, especially a small boat. If you were anchoring in coral--then chain has its use. Weight in the ends of a boat increase hobby horsing and decrease handling, especially in following seas--and could be dangerous, if the boat begins to yaw or broach.


I agree 100% that a windlass should NEVER be used to hold the anchor rode. It is dangerous. The windlass is not designed for this. Even with the chain, you need to use a snubber line--use a rolling hitch, a chain hook, devil's claw or a chain plate. This attatches to a cleat on one end, and to the foreward sampson post or a strongly backed cleat on the other. It also is a shock absorver. All chain is not a shock absorber. I was anchored next to a boat 20 tons lighter than I was, in some rough conditions. Identical chains, only I had a snubber. His chain broke, because of the sudden shock loading and he almost lost the boat--we had no problem.

As for speed, my impression is that the Ranger 25 tug is a 8 to 10 knot boat. 17 mph/ or 14 knots is wide open with light load--that is what we got when we sea trialed the new boat 15 months ago. (that was the 125 hp engine). You are going to have to live with 8 to 10 knots when the boat is loaded. (you might get 12, but it will be pushing the engine)

If the dinghy is an issue, then put up on a rack on the top of the cabin house (there are some disadvantages there also). Plus if you are cruising you have all sorts of "stuff" aboard. Looking at the photos, I suspect that you have over a ton of material aboard than you did when the boat was new.


There is nothing wrong with 4 anchors--I carry 6 to 7 on a cruisng boat. I have 4 on both of our boats currently. I like diversity. The Fortress and Danforth are similar anchors--but one is lighter. The grapell is of extremly limited use. I don't personally like the Bruce--but some find it works well, espc in the PNW. But for the 4 anchors, you need 4 rodes.

If you put the boat on a diet--and get the total weight down it may help some--but you will really be pushing the engine's limit to try and cruise at 17 mph, if you can ever get there again. Hopefully you weighed the boat when you purchased it--weigh it now and see how much it has "gained".

Let us see some speed vs RPM vs fuel use curves when you put the chain aboard--by the way, what size chain did you buy?
 
Waterline on the Ranger indicates that I am not overloaded. But it does tell me that 4 batteries on the port side along with the diesel generator is to much on the one side. If the factory had put two batt. on each side it would be fine. By adding the dink , cantilevered off the back dive platform, and it weighing about 125 lbs brought the bow up. It still is not to much weight, but it is all on the stern. I give top speed examples only to show how drastic the change has been. We enjoy 6 or 7 knots for cruising. Yanmar said to run it wide open for short distances occasionally. Even to run it up dockside before shutting it down. The waterline ( Red Strip) on the bow is 1ft or so above water level.
My theory is the hull at the stern is built kind of the back end of a whale. If you tie to much weight to his tail he would not be able to get his head under water.

The pod on top probably catches some wind although it just has life jackets and snorkel gear in there.

The 45 ft. Commander I use to have , at 12 knots would be in what I call "in the hole. "
At 18 knots it was up on plane. It uses much more fuel when it is in the hole. (Mileage) In really rough seas I found four 55 gal barrels of fuel on the stern, caused it to meet the sea better. But of course it would not plane. I like the bow up and light to meet oncoming seas.

Shifting weight around I think is a good practice. As stores are used up it changes the handling of the boat. ( Beer , canned goods, ETC.) Going to the Bahamas is a lot different than the return trip. The test I made on the river was shifting my company around, I found things looked better with two people setting up front. If I take two extra people to the Bahamas just for ballast I would have to feed them. Fuel economy will improve by balancing the load. The 200 lbs of shot bags is about the same as one person. It is in six bags and takes very little space. Beer would be better, but when it is gone there goes the balance. Actually we use 5 liter boxes of wine. When that is gone there goes MY balance.

On anchoring, if we expect any kind of a blow or know the tide changes, we tie off the rode. and use two anchors. We would us snubbers on the chain. In most anchorages the chain would never tighten up let alone strip from the gypsy.
No,no,no the rode has not slipped in the middle of the night. I am talking about dropping or picking up the anchor. Have not many of you guys had the rode roll out of the winch either picking up or laying out line? The Hunky Dory did the same thing. And it is a pain in the butt. I found by not letting the line go slack it would work alright. Chain , I know will fix that problem.

We have fought with dinks for twenty years and getting them on the roof is for young people. The Pudgy is perfect for the boat. And would be for anyone who needs a dink. If it slowed me down a few miles an hour it would be worth it. I really like it.

captd

 
There is absolutely no way of predicting that you will not have a heavy wind occur at night--or at any one time. So when one anchors, he has to assume that this will happen. I don't agree with putting out two anchors on a routine basis--but there certainly are occasions where this is prudent.

If properly sized, the chain/rode should not jump the gypsy. The boat should be brought up to the anchor. The boat should break out the anchor, not with the windlass. The windlass should bring the rode (line/chain) aboard, and bring the anchor snugly to the bow roller. The bow roller is not designed for heavy loads. But I suspect that you know all of this.

The "solution" to putting a dinghy in the middle of the boat is one of several crane davits--either by manual or electric--in our size boats. This is not much more difficult than using the Weaver snap davits. But again, although it is 125 lbs, I suspect it is only part of the problem. Many of us felt that the Ranger tug would be a 8 to 10 knot boat when in cruising mode, despite the original optimism of the company. I don't think you are going to change that much--there is just not enough HP to plane the boat, and until it gets up to that speed, or is lighter, it will remain as you say "in the hole" at 10 plus knots.

I understand the charm of the Pudgy...
 
Hi Capt D,

Our rode will jump out of the gypsy on occasion, as well. Never a problem with the chain (we have 50' of chain + 200' of rode). It seems that if the rode has any twist in it, it is more prone to jumping. Every once in a great while, while tied at the dock, I will pull the entire rode out... flush it with fresh water and make sure the twist is out of it. Seems to help for a while.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
Jim, That has been my experience as well. I had just laid the rode out on the dock to take the kinks out.

Bob, I appreciate your input and pay close attention to your posts. You are right , their is no way to predict the weather. Thats why we seek well protected harbours. The two anchor scenario is a Bahamas thing. One opposing the other for tide changes. ( Off the bow) I like the danforth the best , but is poor holding in a wind or tide change. Once it is tripped by pulling in the opposite direction it might not reset, While the bruce, delta, plow, etc will. I like the grapple for fishing on wrecks or structure, it holds you right on top with a minimum of rode.

With my windlass it is very impractical to not winch your way to get above your anchor. If not, the rode jumps out any time it has slack. But yes, I let the weight of the boat break it loose.

Also, I must confess, for twenty years living on a boat for six months of the year. we lay at anchor with the windlass holding. Not once did it ever release or skip or fail. Mine are rated for 700 lbs. Which is not allot ,but will hold in a pretty good blow. Personally I think they tell you not to hang on the windless for liability. Kind of like the warning that comes with all appliances. Like don't stick your finger in the light socket. Or don't put your hand in the snow blower. Most boat trailers with winches hold the boat with the winch and have the safety chain loose. I have had those winches slip some and therefor use two turn buckels to hold down the Ranger.

I can assure you the chain and rode was properly sized for the winch in both cases.

captd
 
Although you may have successfully ridden to the windlass, that is not generally the accepted or prudent way of mooring. We have used the "self tailing" type of combination rope/chain gypsy's for over 30 years on various boats. But most of our larger boats had separate rope and chain heads and even two windlases with both a drum and gypsy. The proper line makes a real difference if the line is too flexiable it will not grip as well as a stiffer line.Certainly the proper chain will give the better "grip". Also the lever which pushes down on the line has to be free to move, and keep downward pressure on the line. You can still keep a little tension on the line, and use the boat engine to bring the boat to the anchor if necessary.

I wish that every night I would be assured of a protected anchroage or that there was no weather which would come up. But that is not the reality of cruising. There are certainly times when the Bahamian moor is appropiate. For those who do not understand, the Bahama moor has two equally size and equal holding power anchors dropped at 180 degrees from each other, which allows the boat to ride to one of the anchors if the wind/current shifts 180 degrees during the night. But the Bahamian moor has its major disadvantages, especially if one anchors for a number of days. These include twisting of the two rodes foulding of the rudder and running gear, being difficult to raise under adverse conditions and if one of the anchors drags, then the risk of the second anchor being fouled. There are ways around this, involving fixed lengh rodes, with eye splices on each end, and a shackle with a single lline to the boat at the bow, but this makes the situation complex. An other solution is to use a Kellet at the intersection of the two lines, to keep the line from fouling the running grear. The problems of twisted rodes increases with the Bahamian Moor and chain. It can be difficult, and occasionally dangerous untangling the twisted rodes around a chain or two chains. I have only used this in areas where there was significant current which would change the boats heading 180 degrees or sol. On rare occasion (for example in hurricane force winds) I have used two anchors off the bow at 45 to 60 degrees. I try and post what is the best and safest way of doing things. If the current or wind switches 180 degrees with this mooring system, all of the strain will be on only one of these anchors. The advantage of two anchors off the bow at a modest angle is that the boat will "sail" less.

As for the trailer winch--yes, many boats depend on that, but as you point out in your own photos, chains are far superior to hold the boat onto the trailer. The winch has a captive pawl, most windlasses use clutches, although some windlasses have a back up pawl to keep the line from stripping out.

No it is not just for liability--there are many very experienced boaters who know that you don't "hang on the windlass"--and that you must use snubbers. There are too many cases of broken chains, and windlasses failing. The windlass is rated to pull a maximum load of 700 lbs.
 
Not sure if mentioned, but there is also the consideration that the bow roller assembly and its attachment to the foredeck was not designed to handle the possibly severe loads of the anchor rode holding the boat. It is highly recommended to use the foredeck chocks and attach to your foredeck cleat, which of course, also bypasses the windlass -- I do.
 
At the risk of fueling this discussion into another level of controversy, I'll suggest that there are different levels of anchoring and other seamanship practices that are happening with different members based on where they boat and their experiences.

Some folks, experienced offshore or world cruisers, who have to prepare their boats for any possible eventuality, such as a severe storm or even a hurricane, have to have very high standards of expectation for their equipment and rigging, and must choose and utilize the absolute best alternatives available.

On the other hand, some of us others, who boat under less demanding situations, are able to make things work at a less rigorous level for our boating situations, knowing what works for us where we boat. Simply put, we can get away with less rigorous practices because we boat in less demanding water and weather.

That doesn't make one absolutely right and the other totally wrong, but anyone not following the highest standard must fully realize what compromises have been made, what risks are involved, and what demands the water and weather will put on the boat, equipment, and rigging.

Do what you will, but know what you're doing!

Joe. :thup :teeth
 
Well said Joe. There can be more than one right way, but conditions will apply the stresses, and preparation will provide the relief.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Joe , you are right and so is Bob. He has a vast record of boating all over the world for many years. With large sail boats and Power boats that could use mine for a dink.
But no controversy here. I simply have confess to my bad habits and have pasted on my experience doing it wrong. I should be taken with a grain of salt.

On the lighter side.........The Whistle Pisser is good when it comes to anchoring and for good reason......He does it all the time. And I guess I am a Whistle Pisser.

What? You don't know what a " Whistle Pisser is?

A sailboater rows up to the dock in his little seven foot dink. Says to the Harbour Master , who is standing on the dock. " How much is your slip rent?" Dock Master says, " $2.50 a foot." Sailboater say "Wheeeeeooo
(Whistle) Could I use your bath room?"

Now I'm not a sailboater, but I am cheap. Never owned a sailboat
( except a 12 foot one)
:lol: :beer :thup
Captd
 
captd":geu296m2 said:
Joe , you are right and so is Bob. He has a vast record of boating all over the world for many years. With large sail boats and Power boats that could use mine for a dink.
But no controversy here. I simply have confess to my bad habits and have pasted on my experience doing it wrong. I should be taken with a grain of salt.


Captd
Click to expand...

I guess I should have been more explicit, but Bob was my prototype for the first category, and most of the rest of us just naturally fall into the second!

Cheers!

Joe. :thup :teeth
 
Alasgun":1efbiwyf said:
Could we explore Dave Masons theory for ballast some more?
Mike
Click to expand...

If it was me, I'd go with two thin women. Easier to rearrange and adjust to conditions, fuel use, etc. Of course, to be fair, I would also suggest that the female captains amongst us use healthy, good looking males for ballast (after all males aren't good for much else most of the time). :wink:
 
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