AIS overlay radar ???

[C-Val]

Hi Everyone

My main navigation setup is an ipad air on a ram mount using Navionics with a Garmin handheld for a backup My kids also bought me a SH gx1700 VHF with gps as a second backup

In addition to this I have a decent standalone Eagle depth sounder/fishfinder

I do have to replace, however, my old Apelco radar. I am thinking of buying Furuno 1715 standalone and a icom mxa5000 ais receive only to overlay on the radar

My primary question is has anyone overlaid ais on radar and is it a good idea? I have heard its possible but is it a good idea?

I don't see why I should invest in an expensive chartplotter for ais when I already have a decent navigation system. I would rather put my money into a new radar since as of now I don't have any

What is your opinion? Thanks

David and Val
btw - I primarily use my boat in the San Juans and the Gulf Islands for fishing and weekends

 

[20dauntless]

Look at Vesper Marine XB-8000. It's an AIS transceiver that shares AIS info via Wi-Fi. Connect the iPad to the Vesper Wi-Fi network and you'll get AIS overlay on certain apps (I use iNavX with Navionics charts). I've got one and find AIS data very useful.

 

[cmetzenberg]

AIS is a vhf broadcast information from vessels that broadcast AIS information. The vast majority of these vessels are commercial. The data broadcast can include vessel name, call sign, MMSI, course, speed, cargo, ect. This data should NEVER be used for collision avoidance and maneuvering purposes, it is only as good as the sensors on the vessel broadcasting it. For pleasure boaters the only useful data AIS will give you is the names of vessels near you, this is handy if you need to hail them over the radio. Asides from that, useless. As far as the AIS text messaging service goes, no one in industry uses it or ever checks it, kinda like digital selective calling (vhf-dsc).

 

[Da Nag]

This data should NEVER be used for collision avoidance and maneuvering purposes...

Can't say I agree with that...

While I'd never depend on it as a primary target acquisition/avoidance device, it's certainly better than nothing. One doesn't even need a fancy MFD to display the info - newer VHF radios will show you the info graphically, albeit crudely.

For example, I find it quite useful out in the shipping lanes. My current RADAR is really sucky beyond 1M, so I configure the AIS display on my VHF to show targets in a 5M radius. Helps quite a bit.

 

[Bill K]

Da Nag,
What kind of radar do you have that is sucky beyond 1m ?

I will be getting radar in the near future so am curious.

Thank You

Bill Kelleher

This data should NEVER be used for collision avoidance and maneuvering purposes...

Can't say I agree with that...

While I'd never depend on it as a primary target acquisition/avoidance device, it's certainly better than nothing. One doesn't even need a fancy MFD to display the info - newer VHF radios will show you the info graphically, albeit crudely.

For example, I find it quite useful out in the shipping lanes. My current RADAR is really sucky beyond 1M, so I configure the AIS display on my VHF to show targets in a 5M radius. Helps quite a bit.

 

[gulfcoast john]

C-val,
That 7" stand-alone LCD B/W Furuno 1715 radar is cute...I didn't know such a unit existed in today's MFD (Multi-function Display) mania.
http://furunousa.com/products/productde ... oduct=1715
However, it makes no claims to be a MFD, and you wouldn't have any chartplotter function with it even if it accepts (no guarantee here) a NMEA 0183 input from the ICOM MXA500 black box AIS. (Good choice, since it can use your existing VHF antenna and many can't). Under Best Circumstances without chartplotter input, you'd see radar blob targets, some of which would have AIS target data (only if that boat is transmitting AIS data) but absolutely no relation to land or marine navigation charts. Glancing between two different Nav and Radar/AIS displays would not give you satisfactory situational awareness, unless you are at idle speeds IMHO (maybe not even then). I understand and support your not wanting to invest in a MFD when your current setup works for you. There aren't many 22 foot pleasure boats around here with radar (Dr. Bob excepted, as always, in spades).
I am a big fan of AIS and have owned receive-only then transmit/rec now rec-only units for 10 years. I lust after a Garmin HDx radar for my 4212/AIS 300, but I can't justify it as a fair-weather boater who never goes out if poor vis/fog/darkness are forecast . Agree with Cmetz that the biggest advantage of AIS is being able to hail the Target vessel by name. This alone is well worth the $220 price of AIS admission to me...every boating outing I am crossing a busy ICW chock full of commercial vessels that all look alike from 3 miles away, and I want to know which one EXACTLY I am talking to. All the power plants on the Gulf Coast are supplied coal by white/orange tow boats/barge units named "Our Lady of XYZ" often under 1 mile apart, and I need to know which Lady Of I am negotiating with. I think we can all agree that the price of admission of Radar is north of $1600 (for your cute LCD standalone, or a HD digital radome to connect to an existing MFD). A $220 AIS is well worth it, just to be able to hail by name most craft able to slice yours in half.
But you need an AIS that interfaces with your current chartplotter substitute setup...insert sad face here.
As always, YMMV.
Happy Boating!
John

 

[Da Nag]

What kind of radar do you have that is sucky beyond 1m ?

It's an older JRC, so I'd not read anything into that if making a purchase decision on new equipment.

I've tried everything in the manual, and it's simply hit or miss on what it picks up at any range - but it's virtually unusable for anything but a big land mass beyond 1M. Even when it does pick something up, the limited contrast and brightness makes it extremely difficult to see when it's bright out.

Could be defective, crummy technology, or user error - but since I'm currently close to purchasing a complete electronics upgrade, I'm not investing any more time trying to figure out which.

 

[cmetzenberg]

This data should NEVER be used for collision avoidance and maneuvering purposes...

Can't say I agree with that...

While I'd never depend on it as a primary target acquisition/avoidance device, it's certainly better than nothing. One doesn't even need a fancy MFD to display the info - newer VHF radios will show you the info graphically, albeit crudely.

For example, I find it quite useful out in the shipping lanes. My current RADAR is really sucky beyond 1M, so I configure the AIS display on my VHF to show targets in a 5M radius. Helps quite a bit.

The problem with AIS is the data you receive is what ever the sensors hooked up to the AIS send to the unit. I've seen ships moving in a tss with horrible gyro error reporting a heading 90 off from there COG. If you are using an ARPA and this bad info (course and speed) gets input into your vector modeling your CPAs could be dangerously wrong. AIS is a good reference but it is no substitute for eyes and ears. Though if all you are looking for is a name of another vessel, rock on.

 

[Da Nag]

The problem with AIS is the data you receive...

I'll cut you off right there, as my point is I would be receiving NO data without AIS. To my way of thinking, some data - even if it requires verification - is better than none. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but my limited use of AIS targets on my VHF has been more valuable than not.

If you are using an ARPA and this bad info (course and speed) gets input into your vector modeling your CPAs could be dangerously wrong. AIS is a good reference but it is no substitute for eyes and ears.

Help me out here, as I'm obviously missing something...

On my previous Raymarine system, I had no AIS - but had MARPA. There was no need to depend on AIS for target acquisition, tracking, collision avoidance, etc. And in fact, even if there were - it would seem (to me) to be far inferior to letting the RADAR calculate target speeds and trajectories on it's own.

Why would anyone use AIS for tracking with MARPA available?

 

[cmetzenberg]

My point exactly, you wouldn't want your ais data entering the model. Unfortunately there are systems out there that do just that. The old sperry units I used to operate did it. CPAs would be noticeably different with AIS overlay on vs off.

 

[Will-C]

I can't speak for everyone but I myself have found myself in fog after having left early am on a perfectly clear morning. After having a large (unknown) commercial blow his/her horn I made a decision to a 90 degree turn in an attempt to avoid a collision. After a bit I shut the engine and listened he blew again and I kept heading in the same direction and shut down again and listened. I could heard the engines but never saw the vessel. That was in 1995 on a 24' Grady White with Loran C, fish finder and a VHF .
I have on a number of occasions since found myself in fog. I didn't leave the dock in fog. So radar for me was a no brainer since I planned to cruise over distances with our 23' boat. Not just a day tripper. I'm sure lots of folks look at C-Dory's with radar and scoff; no matter. I know and trust my charts and my GPS but I have comfort in knowing if something big or small is out here in the fog I can avoid it. I'm looking at AIS not as a gizmo or to own the most tricked out small boat ,but we hope to go down the Mississippi river and I would like to be able to talk to the tug captains intelligently so I can ask them on what side to they want me if I intend to pass on bends etc.. In areas with a lot of ferries some high speed ferries (Pacific Northwest) I think AIS might be a real benefit. It's only has to save your ass once to be worth it. But to each there own. I just don't want to end up as a bow ornament on some ocean going tug or ferry.
D.D.

 

[C-Val]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and insights
I have learned so much by reading your comments!

As Gulfcoast John has said the Furuno 1715 is not a mfd and Furuno has confirmed it will not support AIS.

Looks like my only options are an AIS wifi, or a MFD chartplotter that I can actually afford Any suggestions? (remembering I do want to remove my broken radar for a new one about $1600) As I am typing this I am looking out the window of the cabin we use and fog is covering the tops of the islands near us. I never go out in it purposely but its scary if you get caught in it

Here in the San Juans and Gulf Islands the main shipping channel passes right through the islands For example if you are in Active Pass, a large ferry can pop around the corner of the island and suddenly there he is. I do listen to my radio carefully but it would give me peace of mind seeing in advance where they are

Thanks
David and Val

 

[thataway]

I find AIS as a very helpful tool, and one of many in the tool box. Currently I have the smallest (5") chart plotter dedicated to AIS--signal from the Standard Horizon radio. No one tool should be used.

A fair number of the C Dories have radar--including each one I have owned. I have several of the Furuno 1715's--they are fine, but they are also an older generation. If you were starting from scratch, I would probably go with Lowrance/Simrad, G3 radar, and SH radio as the source of AIS signal. If I wanted to be a lot fancier the Vespar with the class B transceiver. I happen to be overlooking the Straits of San Juan de Fuca currently--and it was socked in with fog--now that fog is up on in Sequim. I think that in the PNW a good radar is almost essential.

I won't go into the deficiencies of AIS, but I would say 90% of signals I see are correct in all respects--most often is some data entry (like a each with a length of 300 meters), rather than sensor. But it certainly can occur.

I happen to have Garmin chart plotters MDF--I find them the easiest to use. So I stuck with Garmin when I recently upgraded. I also find that a radar screen has to be at least 7" for me to be comfortable reading it--and in the old radars, that meant a 7" cathode ray tube, and a magnifier to give it the appearance of a 12" screen.

If I was doing a lot of boating up in the PNW, especially at night and year around, I would have a Class B AIS. The cost is now down to about what a MFD costs.

The Lowrance/ Simrad G3 G4, gives excellent discrimination (separation of targets) close in. It uses minimal power, and less health risks. In the past there was some criticism about its performance over 6 to 10 miles, but that may have improved with the most recent upgrades. AIS often will show vessels at some distance. I am more worried about the small boats, and even Kayaks, more than the large ships.

As with any tool, the more you use it, the better your skills become. I am one who does not run the radar all of the time (some do because they interpute the rules as requiring it. The better reason is to be able to identify the radar target, and the visual target for learning purposes. Adding AIS to this added to the knowledge. I mostly do radar overlay in my mind, but I have been doing this for years. The chart overlay can be valuable, but it can fool you too...

 

[Sunbeam]

]As Gulfcoast John has said the Furuno 1715 is not a mfd and Furuno has confirmed it will not support AIS.

Looks like my only options are an AIS wifi, or a MFD chartplotter that I can actually afford Any suggestions?

Have you considered one of the VHF radios that give you AIS information? Even if you don't have an MFD to show the info on, the radio display does give you information on its own. Examples would be Standard Horizon GX2200 or Icom M506.

 

[starcrafttom]

Hi, I want to get in on several points here. The difference between useful and needed as it pertains to radar, ais, and chart plotter.

Radar--Very use full for a range of applications including fog. I find that radar is a under used resource in good weather. On very sunny days ( yes we have then here, no not today) it can be hard to impossible to see a small ( under 30 ft boat) traveling fast right at you. They hide in the sun light and shimmering waves on the waters surface. I have spotted a lot of small craft including kayaks and open boats on clear days on radar. It is also usefull for telling alot about the fog. How thick, how dense and the same goes for rain. So is it needed? In this area of the PNW YES YES and YES. I would not want to travel with out it. Fog comes and fog goes and it does not tell anyone when and where. We have only gotten to or from the SJ's for a enjoyable weekend because we could get thru 30 mins of fog. Do not let the lack of radar stop you from enjoying a other wise sunny weekend.

p.s. over lay- Mine has not worked in a year and because of that I do not use my radar nearly as much as I did. When using the radar over lay I think I would rather have radar and AIS over lay and set the detail to un-clutter then to have no over lay. In general having everything on one screen just makes life easier and faster then having to scan multiply screens and combined it together in your head. I will say that multiply screens come in handy for different information. Fish finder on one and maps / radar/ ais on the other.

Ais- Nice toy that can have some uses. More use in the ICW then the NW. Yes we have traffic here but not as much and with a whole lot more room to maneuver. I have added ch. 5 to the scan on my VHF so I can monitor the commercial traffic. I just don't put to much stock in it as so few people use it. Not even all the commercial traffic use it. As an example none of the whale watching boats here are required to use it yet and I have a better chance of encountering them then any other traffic. If I was upgrading I would get it but I would get radar first. Radar shows everything in range, Ais only shows a very small percentage of what is out there. Most small boat collisions are with... small boats not commercial traffic.

MFD- have to admit to two thing. I don't like the high price and don't understand the desire to spend time and money not to have one. If you enjoy trying to get 5 different things to do the out of the box job of one screen then more power to you but that's time that could be spent fishing or boating. Most of the new units now have a the ability to share both info and control with a pad or phone via Wi Fi. When I upgrade it will be with a MFD on the dash and pad a the rear station.

 

[journey on]

Wow, a lot of opinions on the best instrumentation. And here's my suggestions just to add to the confusion.

As far as instrumentation, presently, I'm using a PC for a MFD, running OpenCpn (free) with the US Gov't charts (free.) NOAA for the ocean and Core of Eng for inland waterways. Canadian charts aren't free, by the way. I bought a Lowrance 3G radar which plugs into the PC via the ethernet port, a USB GPS, and an USB Millitech AIS receiver. I feel that's about as low cost as you can get, especially if you have a PC. When all 3 are working together through OpenCpn, it's a great way to navigate. And a big 15 screen.

Nowl, AIS. Few boats on the Mississippi have AIS on, in my experience. Second, if you want to talk to them about passing, use the VHF and ask. And the captains are very polite with us small guys; just ask them if they want one toot or 2 toots (port to port vs port to starboard, if I'm correct.) Personally, since the Mississippi has a well defined channel, I tried just to stay out of the way on the side where the tow wasn't. They're big and slow.

Regarding AIS data, it's another source of data and it's extremely useful. My example is the container and tanker ships coming down the Santa Barbara channel at 20 knts when we're on the way to Santa Cruz Island. Without AIS, it was always a guess as to when to cross their path. And if you guessed wrong, you're in deep trouble. With AIS, there's a definite answer. If their gyro is 90 deg out, you're gonna know it, cause they're going ashore. Always check what's really going on and then use the best data available. Reality is out there, you gotta look.

Boris

 

[Will-C]

I think the idea of knowing the vessels name you are trying to call might be an added benefit when wanting to hail someone on the VHF. I guess you could call out southbound tug but then you really might NOT know who is actually responding. Thanks for the tips.
D.D.

 

[Will-C]

I was looking at some of Vesper marines AIS units. I noticed that the XB 8000 AIS transponder sends signals via Wi-Fi or USB cable to another device’s screen. It sells for 745.99 from Defender
Then there is the Vesper Marine Watchmate 850 transponder with its own screen and it has an internal antenna. It also has an anchor watch function and has the ability to take an external antenna if need be. It sells for 830.00 this would be the ticket if you wanted a standalone unit that would not confuse issues with navigation markers waypoints if you have everything on one unit or computer. Not a lot more money. From what is mentioned below seems like AIS might have some advantages that you would not have with radar. But I could see the reason to have both. See below.
Automatic Identification System ( AIS ) improves the safety level of boating by exchanging information about the status of your ship with other AIS-equipped craft nearby. AIS targets are constantly visible even when they are shrouded in fog, in darkness, behind headlands, river bends or other obstructions.
D.D.

 

[C-Val]

These are all very good thoughts and I thank you all for considering my navigation setup

With what everyone has said, my long-term goal is a 3g broadband radar to replace my old Apelco and added AIS

It looks like I will be saving for awhile for this since I don't have a MFD unit to display either. It looks like a hds8 display unit will be about $15 hundred from gps store which I think is the minimum size for my 22' plus the cost of the radar itself

In the meantime I will continue reading about the wifi idea since it looks like I could potentially use that idea on my tablet setup

David and Val



Thanks again everyone

 

[thataway]

I am sitting on the bank at Brown's Bay Marina--just North of Seymour Narrows, watching the boats go by from the "Ripple Rock RV park" --I am amazed at how many yachts in this area have AIS (of course it is still high season, and a high concentration of boats. But I have seen several boats with a length of 8 meters and beam of 2.5 meters with AIS B ---this is based on those received by the Marine traffic sight.

I happen to feel that AIS is going to be a lot more important in the future--maybe even required for recreational boats.

Good idea on the 3 G!