Advice on anchor line diameter

CW - The manner in which one uses the anchor windlass has a great effect upon the power draw. Most windlass instructions say to move the boat toward the anchor, taking pressure off the windlass while it is spooling up the line. Most advise NOT to use the windlass alone to drag the boat against the wind/current until the anchor is freed. It uses much less power when used properly.

John
 
CW":4d384m16 said:
On the Columbia River we deal with strong currents 4 - 8 knts. and frequent anchor pulling and repositioning to fish different areas. When the water is 60 feet deep and the tide is running too, it is easy to use every bit of 250-300 ft. of anchor line attached to a sand//rake type anchor (typical Danforths will not hold) this on boats in the 3,400 lb. range. The rope is typically tied to the bottom of the anchor and zip tied along the shaft.... this allows you to pull hard with buoy/engines and break them to free stuck anchor. If a ship, barge or log is coming at you, you don't have the time to scratch your head and figure things out over time. If you want to fish the deeper sturgeon holes (80-100 ft.), more length is needed. Everyone here uses the sliding buoy system as an anchor puller (about $70) using the engines to lift the anchor, but believe me, you still use your hands and back pulling in that buoy and anchor and all of that rode by your third or fourth pull in a day. 275 ft. of 5/8" braided line will fit in a plastic milk crate. With all of the algae, mud and debris, (and salt//corrosion), that typically affixes to a line, I wouldn't want it stored right next to my bed, but rather on deck where it can dry out. In a really strong current (like right below Bonneville Dam in the Columbia River Gorge) we found that the increased drag of a 5/8" line lessened anchor holding ability considerably compared to a 3/8" line. 5-10 ft. is typical chain length if used, but since rivers are generally a consistent, straight downstream pull, the rake type anchor holds well without them since your boat is not spinning around the hook. One of my main reservations about getting a C-Dory is the ability to work rapidly with anchoring and pulling it, all from the hatch, as I potentially drift downstream to a hogline of boats directly downstream. Good luck. C.W.
Click to expand...

More chain will make any anchor work better :wink: :mrgreen: :beer
 
I've used 2 different electric windlasses: a "free-fall" on a sailboat and the Lewmar on Journey On. The Lewmar is power in and power out, and wins hands down. The only reason I go forward is to tie the anchor line off, after it's set, and untie it to raise it. Power out helps in setting the anchor and making sure you know how much line is out. Pull that anchor by hand a couple of times and the windlass will seem a great bargain.

As for electricity used, use the windlass as John suggested above, and it doesn't use much power. In fact, if you have the motor running ( I assume that's a given,) the motor will carry the whole load, and not use any battery power. Yes the Wallis fan is run by electricity, but it only uses 65 MILLIamps. The batteries don't notice it over a days use.

I used 1/2 in. line on a 36' sailboat, and it held in 32 knt winds. 5/8" is just too big for a 22' boat. I agree with Bob, one can even go to 3/8" line. And I have anchored in the Columbia River

Boris
 
When I was rigging the 'Nancy H' I purchased a 600ft spool of 7/16ths three strand nylon line.

I used one half for the bow anchor (16.5 Bruce with 30 ft of 1/4 chain) and one half for the stern anchor (13lb Danforth with 30 ft of chain).

I pulled the anchors by hand and the 7/16ths line is a good compromise. I felt that the 3/8ths was too small to grip and 1/2 was too big for the storage space. The bow anchorline was stored on the foredeck in a locker that I made.

My anchor gear proved adequate for the Pacific Northwest from Puget Sound to SE Alaska.
 
Jim:

I dont have a windlass either and have found that 300 feet of 1/2 inch 3 strand nylon with 30 feet of chain works well for me. I am resisting an electric windlass for simplcity sake but would love to find a reliable manual windlass of the right size.

One thing to consider is the need to go up on the foredeck to manually haul your anchor and what that involves. I dont have a foredeck hatch (yet) but even if you do, you will have to get up on the foredeck to get leverage to pull that much chain and rode. If its rainy or icey that might change your mind towards an electric windlass real quick.

As a side note, a couple years ago my wife and I conducted a MOB drill on a warm day in shallow calm water to see if I could get back aboard in case I went overboard...IT WAS VERY VERY DIFFICULT IN MY FLOAT COAT, RED RUBBER BOOTS, JEANS, ETC. that I typically would be wearing. I was so cold and stiff that it was a real eye opener. If the water had been a little rough or it was fall or winter I dont know if she and I would have made a successful recovery which would have ruined the day for sure. I guess I am agreeing with most others that 5/8ths and 30 feet of chain is probably overkill and too much weight and that windlass' are not only back savers but nice safety devices in this part of the world.

Andy
 
Thanks to everyone for their input.
I went ahead and bought 600 feet of 1/2" 3-strand and a 16.5 lb Bruce Lee (Chinese version) anchor.
I may end up buying a windlass, but I'll pull the hook by hand for awhile.
After a frustrating hour in front of the computer figuring out how to make a chain to rope splice, I am one step closer to getting the Turnstone on the water this wkend.
We'll see if the weather cooperates...
Jim
 
Will you be adding chain? It makes a big difference. We have 30' on ours. Good luck in getting your boat out on the water!

Peter
C-Dancer
 
Surfbird-

Good that you bought 1/2" three strand nylon, because it's what most windlasses use that are sized for the C-Dory.

It will be best if you buy 1/4" G-4 High Test Chain for the same reason.

One of the primary reasons some of us add windlasses, besides for the obvious ease and convenience, is for the safety factor of being able to operate the anchor system without having to go onto the foredeck in bad weather, big winds, swells, river currrents, lightening, and especially when operating alone. Also, if you're going to use the motor to position the boat caefully, or take up the slack when hoisting, you have to be at the helm, and cannot be on the foredeck at the same time.

To this end, I don't like windlass systems that require the operator to go to forward to release some chainstop, snubber line, or other lock/catch mechanism.

A good, appropriately sized (or oversized) windlass with a strong pivoting bow roller will work to lower, raise, and store the anchor and rode without extra tie-off devices.

I will agree that one ordinarily doesn't want to leave the rode tension on the windlass, and it's best, especially in heavy weather and overnight situations to tie the rode off with a snubber line to take the tension off the windlass. However, for daytime use when moving about here and there, such as when fishing, I want the system "push-button simple" from the helm, period!

To this end, I'd recommend a very strong, robust windlass that is even oversized for the boat.

I have a Quick Aires 500 windlass on my 22 which is brutally strong for a boat the size of a 22. When I experienced some occasional slip and difficulties passing the splice, I did two things:

1. First I added 100 feet of 1/4" G-4 chain at the front to replace the shorter 15 ft section, and thus enable me to anchor most of the time without even getting to the splice, (all chain works best for me in reservoirs and river anchoring situations anyway), and

2. I also re-invented the wheel by developing a different type of splice where the change in diameter at the splice-back is not so abrupt. (See HERE)

These changes worked so well for me here on Lake Shasta that when I added a windlass to my 26 1/2 ' Sea Ray, I installed a Lewmar Horizon Express Windlass (similar to the Horizon 1500 with a slightly higher gear ratio), 30 feet of 5/16" chain, and 200 feet of 5/8" 3-strand nylon. With the enormous pull available in the windlass and a huge anchor locker, I selected the 5/8" line because it fit the windlass gypsy better than smaller diameter lines, and did not present a storage problem. Otherwise, 1/2" would have been fine, and would have provided a more elastic/shock absorbing rode. I may still go over to 100 feet of chain up front, depending on experiences with the present rig.

One thing that must always be mentioned when discussing anchoring and equipment is that the specific types of anchors, rodes, and windlasses that will be best for any boat owner's use will be different depending on their area of use and anchoring/cruising style. What works best on the Columbia River may well be quite different from that one would be best in the sunken, underwater, and glascially carved rocky canyons of SouthEast Alaska. YMMV

HTH- Just another $0.02 of morning advice and jabberwocky for the offering!

Joe.
 
I don't know about the Bruce type of anchor--but the Delta Quick set will self launch from a solid roller, does not need a pivoting roller.

Agree with the longer length of chain--I like to have chain on the gypsy when there is any load. (As noted, the boat should be taken up until it is right over the anchor, the load taken up and then the boat's engine used to break out the anchor--the windlas brings up the chain and anchor.) I found that 150 to 200 feet of chain covered almost all anchoring situations in most of the world's waters--backed with 400 to 600 feet of rode. In Florida we find that 50 feet of chain is plenty--since we rarely anchor in more than 30 feet of depth.
 
One more wrinkle that I forgot to mention (and it's a doozy) in fishing in hoglines on the Columbia. Boats fish abreast, all lined up, perpendicular to the shore, sometimes so close that bumpers are deployed to minimize damage. We back-bounce our lures behind us, fishing 3-5 ft. off of the bottom using a sliding weight dropper line. This is good etiquette because if someone anchored too low, their anchorline represents a lost fish if the fish wraps around it. With so many lines in the water and the increased risk of having a hooked Chinook wrap one's line around someone else's fishing line, the procedure is to release from your anchor line and drift back with the fish, in the current. Once safely away from your own hogline, you fire up your kicker or main motor and chug inshore or out to the main channel in order to avoid tangling fish and boat into the next hogline of boats below you and their quickly approaching anchor line, strung out in front of them some 200 ft.

And yes, it is a trick to guess where to drop your anchor, in the dark, between other anchorlines and trying to accurately judge the long distance and exactly shoot the gap between hoglined boats below you that may be a mere 15-20 ft. apart!


Release from the anchor? Yes, the rope is bagged or tied in a bundle to the buoy with a dangling stringer that is hooked over a cleat for quick release. I run mine through the "can" a tube that holds the anchor when underway and then along the portside gunwhale to a metal pin that pokes through a small loop back by the fishdeck in the stern, so I can set the hook, play fish and by pulling a short release rope, release from the anchor. The floating buoy not only holds your rope, it holds your spot in the hogline, reserving it until you get back from fighting your fish (or running in shore to pick up passengers etc.).

As convenient as windlasses sound.... can you easily get all of your rope up through them to leave with a buoy? Of course you'd have to do that after anchoring and rig up a release before fishing, to be ready. C.W.
 
Wow, think I need to evaluate my situation a little after reading this thread.
Here’s what my boat came with:
11# Bruce style anchor with 150’ combination chain & 3/8” nylon three strand rode and deck pipe
I don’t know chain length, but will a 11# Bruce style anchor work?
I’ve got strong arms so not really concerned about pulling some weight, what would be the ultimate combination for a 22 without windless?
 
Joe,
On your chain/rope splice, how does the junction pass through the gypsy? Does the chain hold in the gypsy slots, or does the rope provide the hold? I'm going to have to resplice Journey On's anchor rode, since it's a bit frayed.

Bob,
While I can't comment on the Delta, the Bruce C-Dory gave me has certainly done well with us. It also is self launching. I would assume that either the Delta or Bruce is a good choice. Both are made in 3rd world countries: Delta in China, Bruce in Brazil. Our CQR (made in Scotland) ploughed in soft mud in Chesapeake Bay and sand, in Rattlesnake Key. No anchor is perfect, darn it.

Jay,
Pulling the anchor up isn't just pulling the anchor up, but having the boat yaw off the anchor in a gust of wind. Even I can (still) lift the weight of the rode and anchor. Also, if the anchor is really buried, breaking it out means that someone has to be at the helm, to use the motor to pull that sucker loose. It's also having to go out on the bow and work from there. In smooth water, no wind , you don't appreciate a windlass. It's when there is surge, wind and you're dancing on the foredeck that the thought of a windlass appears in your mind.

I watched a 30' sailboat take 3 times to get a set that made the owner happy. Each time the guest/crew had to drop the anchor, set it, break it out and reset it. I'd have gone back to the cockpit, got a beer and said: "you go up there and do it until you're happy." However, I had a windlass, so I just watched.

Boris
 
Jay,

FYI, I bought my anchor set up at Arctic Wire and Rope on Arctic. I thought their prices for the 16.5 psedu-Bruce ($70) and the 600' of 1/2 ($175) were reasonable - plus, it is nice to support a local business.


To all,
I used an eye splice through the last link of chain (1/4") following this diagram:
http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/3S ... eChain.pdf

I decided on an eyesplice versus a rope thimble and shackle based on a few comments about increased rope wear on a thimble...also, I thought that an eye splice would travel through a windlass or deck pipe much smoother than the thimble/shackle combo.

Any thoughts....?

Jim
 
Lewmar gives the Claw (Bruce knock off) 11# at 20 to 30 foot boats. I would want a heavier anchor--probably the 16 for a 22. (It is more fluke area, than weight). We have 22 lb Deltas on our Tom Cat and 25 foot C Dory.

As far as the type of anchor, it depends on the type of bottom and area where you boat. I personally have not had good luck with the Bruce. But it is probably the most common anchor in the PNW, and highly respected there. I have anchored several thousand nights--and have had anchors drag only a hand full of times--by changing anchors, with one exception, I was able to successfully anchor. The one exception was in 55 to 65 knots and rocks about 3" in diameter--I don't think that any anchor would have worked in those "ball bearings".

As far as line diameter--if you are fishing or in protected areas, 3/8" line is fine with 3/16" chain--I prefer 7/16 to 1/2" with 1/4" HT chain on the bow for the 25 or TC--same for the C D 22. But, my stern anchors have lines from 1/4" up to 3/8" (however I do carry another couple of hundred feet of back up 1/2" line) During the storms at Lake Powell in Oct, our stern anchors were on doubled 1/4" lines and 5/16" lines. (Why?--because I appreciate the small amount of space and lightness of these lines--but the 1/4" were upgraded to an extra 3/8" stern line--these are short (50 feet) because the go to anchors on the shore, with the boat's stern right at the shoreline.)

My anchors are basically Delta Quick set, Danforth High Tests, Fortress and Northill anchors. I have used the CQR Plow and Fishermen type when long distance cruising usually as the primary anchor).
 
journey on":1jof1kiz said:
Joe,
On your chain/rope splice, how does the junction pass through the gypsy? Does the chain hold in the gypsy slots, or does the rope provide the hold? I'm going to have to resplice Journey On's anchor rode, since it's a bit frayed.

Boris
Click to expand...

Boris-

With two of the three strands going forward and somewhat burried as they are intertwined with the chain, the chain links still stick out and are grasped in the pockets by the gypsy.

This splice passes so much better than the conventional three strand splice-back that I wonder why manufacturer's of ready-made rode combinations don't use it or something similar. (Other folks have developed similar splices.)

But then, I think about their concern for liability issues and realize they''d probably feel better with the conventional splice if they were defending themselves in court. The old way is established tradition and accepted; the new would be advocating a new "unproven" design that might be sticking their neck out in terms of liability.

If you use this splice, just watch it for chafing just like any other splice. My experience with it has been all positive and no problems!

Joe. :teeth
 
We started with the 16.5# Bruce and 100 feet of chain. Drug anchor twice in strong wind. Changed to 22# Bruce and 30 feet chain and have never had a problem since. Use the 16.5 Bruce and a small folding Dansforth as backup on extended cruises. Think if your going to go oversize on anything the anchor is the most important. That thought is backed up by the Douglass & Hemingway, Exploring Southeast Alaska, Cruising Guide.

Jay
 
surfbird":ylxhhiuk said:
Jay,

FYI, I bought my anchor set up at Arctic Wire and Rope on Arctic. I thought their prices for the 16.5 psedu-Bruce ($70) and the 600' of 1/2 ($175) were reasonable - plus, it is nice to support a local business.


To all,
I used an eye splice through the last link of chain (1/4") following this diagram:
http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/3S ... eChain.pdf

I decided on an eyesplice versus a rope thimble and shackle based on a few comments about increased rope wear on a thimble...also, I thought that an eye splice would travel through a windlass or deck pipe much smoother than the thimble/shackle combo.

Any thoughts....?

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,
Thanks for the tip.
I’m surprised your able to get 600’ of ½ stowed up forward, makes my mesally 150’ 3/8 seem inadequate; do you need that much rode?
Guess I'll be upgrading my anchor system before going out, hate being up all night on anchor watch.
 
Hi Jay-
The plan is to have 300' forward, most likely in a tub on deck. The remainder will be for a danforth storm anchor.

Also, not sure whether you have been boating in the Sound much, but I just bought A Cruising Guide to PWS and it is full of great information; I highly recommend it. Bought mine at Title Wave.
See you out there.
Jim
 
surfbird":34nu198o said:
Jay,

FYI, I bought my anchor set up at Arctic Wire and Rope on Arctic. I thought their prices for the 16.5 psedu-Bruce ($70) and the 600' of 1/2 ($175) were reasonable - plus, it is nice to support a local business.


To all,
I used an eye splice through the last link of chain (1/4") following this diagram:
http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/3S ... eChain.pdf

I decided on an eyesplice versus a rope thimble and shackle based on a few comments about increased rope wear on a thimble...also, I thought that an eye splice would travel through a windlass or deck pipe much smoother than the thimble/shackle combo.

Any thoughts....?

Jim
Click to expand...

29 cents a foot is a good price. I just purchased my anchor line yesterday, 275' of 1/2" premium 3-strand nylon at 31 cents a foot. I will be splicing this to 25' of 1/4" high test chain for a 300' rode. I will be connecting this to a 22lb Lewmar Delta Fastset anchor. At West Marine this anchor was $200, I just bought a brand new one from Ebay for $142 delivered. Always nice to save a few bucks when we can!

I found the Samson website the very best resource for splicing, whipping, etc. I looked at several books at West Marine and none offered the detail and pictures of the Samson website. Of course you would not be able to pass a shackle through a windlass so you will be set if you get a windlass.
 
Jim,

That cruising guide by the Lethcoe's is some good book, all right. (Durn, now everyone will find all the little secret spots.) The latest edition is the 1998 one. There is a lot of fairly old information in it.

This couple lives in Valdez and I heard that they are working on a revised edition. That ought to be even better.

Jay,

My 1 1/2 cents worth on the anchor line question. About half of my boating is solo. I don't have a windlass. I do drop the anchor line into the V-berth. When I'm alone, I don't re-stow the line after pulling anchor. I coil it up just in front of the hatch and lay the anchor on top of the rope if it isn't too bumpy out there. When it comes time to drop anchor again, it's really easy to drop the anchor and I don't even have to climb out on the deck. I can do it from the hatch. For stowing at the end of the cruise, the line goes back into the V-berth.

I use an anchor puller and a bouy to get the whole business up and it saves a lot of work. I like to stay off the front deck as much as possible when I don't have anyone to crew for me.

Pat
 
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