25 Tug questions...answered!

N

New Hampshire Guy

New member
Hi to all BRATS!

I have the 25 Tug about 50 yards from where I sit, in the water and now has a few hours on it. If you have some questions I'd like to open myself for target practice. Please be patient, but I promise I'll do the best I can.
My big boat experience is somewhat limited, so if you ask me to compare it to another boat I won't be much help.
Let the games begin...

John Cameron
Y-Landing Marine Services
 
Thanks, John! How about posting a few pix?

Which engine does it have? They talked about 80 hp and 100 hp Yanmars in the SBS sales literature, I understand they actually tested with a 125 hp - is this the 125 hp Yanmar? Something else?

Cruising speed?

Top speed WOT?

Does it have a fuel flow meter? How about some numbers, gph at cruising speed would be the most important probably.

How does it get to the plane? Easily? Sluggishly?

And the all important one - what are the dimensions of the Reading Room? Need to know if an Airhead Composting Marine Toilet will fit!


New Hampshire Guy":v5eodk8t said:
Hi to all BRATS!

I have the 25 Tug about 50 yards from where I sit, in the water and now has a few hours on it. If you have some questions I'd like to open myself for target practice. Please be patient, but I promise I'll do the best I can.
My big boat experience is somewhat limited, so if you ask me to compare it to another boat I won't be much help.
Let the games begin...

John Cameron
Y-Landing Marine Services
Click to expand...
 
Great! Some questions I can answer.

The boat does NOT have fuel flow meters so I can only give you the Yanmar Charts.
The boat options list and our invoice say the boat has a 110HP Yanmar, but it is a 4JH3-DTE which means you are correct, it is 125HP.

WOT is about 21-22MPH (flat water) and it can cruise at 18mph. The RPM's are not correct. May be because of the 110HP change to 125HP. WOT is at 3600 and the Yanmars can go all day at wide open minus 200, so you can cruise at 18 and be in limits, but it is above the 3000 they say.

The Reading Room/Lav/WC I'll have to remeasure. It is sort of a 5 sided/faceted space, with no two sides alike. The sitting station is in a corner where the widest point, where your elbows would go for instance, is 30 inches. I'll have to see about getting pictures because it is confusing to write about. If you could tell me the footprint of the composting unit I could just measure that.

Pictures to follow. Take Care.
John
 
Oooo pics, can't wait! :D I have a hunch the pics will draw more questions from the Brats... me included. Keep us posted on your observations as you begin to enjoy the boat. :thup Butch
 
The question I would have, is there a hump in the RPM vs speed curve like a planing boat? Or is it more of a flat curve like a semi displacement boat (similar to a Rosoborough)?

The second question is a bit more rethorical--what will happen as the boat is loade down with cruising gear? Will it get to a point when it will not plane? We have some facts on the Tom Cats which show that even laden they will continue to scoot and have good fuel mileage.

It will be interesting to see what the fuel consumption is on the C Range 25--most diesels get 20 hp/gallon an hour. So if one is burning 5 gallons an hour a 20 mph, this means 100 HP and a mileage of 4 miles a gallon--extremely good!
 
Or my 21 C-Ranger Tug, which burns 1 quart of diesel per hour at 6 knots. :lol:

And Mr. Thataway is absolutely right - ain't rocket science. Weight is a significant part of the equation, particularly for a planing hull that is in transition from semi-dispacement speed to a full plane. My old Tomcat 24 was very forgiving, and it could jump on plane with 12 big bodies aboard. IMO the 25 Ranger, with about 14 degrees deadrise aft, will require lots of HP when fully loaded with liquids, personal gear, and people, to make the transition and get to full planing attitude. Just my guess. How much HP? We'll soon know, and it is a great boat. I'd love it with a 55 hp Yanny and stay at trawler speeds.

Dusty
 
What impresses me the most and worries me a bit at this point is the very intense level of high expectations we seem to have for this boat!

So many expect so much in the finished design for the R-25 Tug that it may be very hard to deliver everything to everyone. And, realistically, since we know that every design is really a compromise, it will be expected that there will be some minor disappointments at least.

I'm guessing that C-Ranger's desire to bring forth a throughly thought out and highly finished design has kept it from our view since the last showing back at the parade & boat show in the water many months ago. The limitations of the design at that point made for a somewhat disappointing introduction.

Let's all hope for a great re-introduction of this much awaited new boat design. I'm getting very anxious just to see it, and I don't even have any $$$ on the line!

Joe.
 
John.... Many thanks for stepping out there ... Now you are killing me at the same time. I am attempting to move from AL to TN...over the next couple of weeks... and you are 1270 miles away from Clarksville, TN...which is streatching my abilities to go AWOL from moving duties and responsibilities. But then...hell... I never wen AWOL in 27+ years of service...and if I go now...they can not bust me...or take away my retirement.... But worse....I would have to face Sherryl... and that would make a man appreciate a good hurricane.... so.... just gonna have to wait till mid Oct to see one on the Gulf I guess.

But.. Thanks for your post...and your numbers.

Bob and Dusty have it pegged....as does Joe. There has to be at least 20-30 of us who have taken prictures, printed them, re-drawn them, drank coffee and other beverages over them, re-drawn them...gone back to the pictures....wondered...figured...wondered some more... but, the Livingstons have been faced with BUILDING THE BOAT. My hats are off to them.

Yep, I see load/weight/hp issues too. But, what I think I see is a great weekend traveling boat capable of getting you about the area with a nice turn of speed (knots)... and too.... a hull that will troll along .....very long...long distances for those wishing to see the distant waters....at the reduced "traditional trawler speeds." I happen to have had the TC24 hull that Dust referes to. Yes, just like Bob indicates for the new TC255... you can have her loaded...and have your speed too. But, there is only one thing (or two of them on the TCs) that make this possible...and it is HP.

Not sure exactly on Bob's TC255...but I think combined total of somewhere in the 270-300 range..... kinda sorta pushing the 3 times hp range of the 125 hp diesel. So...what I think I am seeing...is if ya want a fast trailerable C-Dory boat that you can load up and still go fast... the TC255 might be the rig... But... like ol' Dusty so clearly states... if your gonna load up this current CR-25... then why go over the top with HP... drop back down to lighter/smaller/more economical/slower... and spend your funds on the travel...rather than on the camel's owners....opps. :mrgreen: But then too.... I have spent many many hours on Dusty's ol hull, with one of the Honda 90s (the old carburated ones...which worked great)...with one of the motors running at about the 1600-1800 rpm range.... and cruised the day/night away...with very minimal fuel burn too. A very economical "trawler" it was.

Hummm... CR25 with the new 300 hp suzuki 4 stroke on the stern anyone?

Just kidding... Great to see the boat getting out in the water for sure. Time will tell...options abound for sure.
 
thataway":5cc6y33d said:
The second question is a bit more rethorical--what will happen as the boat is loade down with cruising gear? Will it get to a point when it will not plane? We have some facts on the Tom Cats which show that even laden they will continue to scoot and have good fuel mileage.
Click to expand...

Yes, this really is the $64,000 (more actually!) question...performance under real world conditions, fuel, water, gear and people. We shall have to await the reports of the initial owners. I HOPE they find this site and keep us posted! The TC255 has somewhere between 260 and 300 hp pushing it, and the cat hull does just fine (a big duh)...The CD25 has between 130 and 150 hp pushing it, and the mono hull does just fine (I know this from the trip from Blaine to Ketchikan - better than fine, it does GREAT)...The C-Ranger 25, so far, has somewhere between 80 and 125 hp pushing it, and how a heavier boat is going to perform on the plane with less horsepower under real world conditions is really what we are all waiting to find out.

 
Sawdust":1uj9gv2r said:
I'd love it with a 55 hp Yanny and stay at trawler speeds.
Dusty
Click to expand...

If I were going to do that, I would probably buy an Allweather Boat from Ferndale, WA, and save multiple 10s of 1000s of $$$...I know that is heresy here (!) but this sure seems to be one slick slow boat! Fuel economy of the C-Ranger 21 and the interior space of the CD25, if the Nor'westing article can be believed. Here is their website. But I really need to be able to cruise a little faster, at least 12 knots with reasonable efficiency...and I am banking on a 16 knot cruise from the C-Ranger 25, just like the sales literature says!
 
Pat-

Nice looking/ performing boat!

Looks exactly like a SAILBOAT with a little extra beam to create some more room inside:

awpic.jpg

Might be interesting to shop around for an older, used quality keelboat and see what one could do to make a conversion. Would be a great project for someone who enjoys that type of thing.

If one could hire Bob Austin (with all his experience and knowledge) as Project Advisor, you'd come out with a better boat than anything available on the market, bar none!

Plus, with a carefully selected older boat, you could get (if you wanted that sort of thing) a boat with a loving, hand crafted, beautiful wood interior. Hard to make that kind of an interior anymore in the U.S. because of prohibitive labor costs.

Fun just to think about!!!

Joe.

On Edit: Reference to Lord Nelson Victlory tug deleted as too much to expect unless an equally expensive sailboat was used as a beginning point.
 
This gets a bit off thread, but there are a number of sail boats which have been made into "trawlers" A friend just did a Schucker 40 with the 75 hp Yanmar engine--this owner is a professional boat builder and the result is far better than new. With the hurricane damaged boats, this is a great opportunity to pick up a good hull for nothing. (A friend gave away 5 boats last week)

Back to the HP/speed. The big question which always comes up, is how do these larger highly turboed engines do at low speeds? Do they tend to carbon up the turbo? (Most encourage running the engine at operating temperature and running the engine up to rated RPM every few hours and toward the end of the run). I do agree that if you want a slow speed boat, you need to put in an engine which is appropiate for that speed (like 20 hp)--but you would design the hull differently. I built one boat with a 18 hp Sabb diesel and controlable pitch prop--the boat was 38 feet long and weight of 15,000 lbs and would go 7 knots easily in calm water.

There are two slightly different basic blocks in the 4 cyl Yanmar engines from 54 to 120 hp--but they are basically 122 to 134 cu inch engines, so they fall below the magic number of one hp per cubic inch--which is an excepted limit for durability. But the same block may be 54 hp or 110 hp, depending on the configuration of the turbo.

Back to speed. We almost always traveled at 5 to 7 knots in our sailboats/motorsailors. When I went to trawlers, I wanted a boat which could do 10 knots on occasion. The reason was that there are a number of coastal passages on the coast of the US, that 10 knots allows that passage during daylight hours, and avoids an "overnighter".

I am sure that the C Ranger 25 will always achieve this 10 knots and will be a huge success, especially given the state of fuel prices and the number of people retiring and wanting a small trawler.
 
Pat Anderson writes- From how a heavier boat is going to perform on the plane with less horsepower under real world conditions is really what we are all waiting to find out.

What also would be important to an Alaskan owner is how well this boat handles in rough water and I mean swells with chop. I have spent hours in 8 ft seas with our 22 cruiser and it handles it very well. Over the years we have developed confidence in the Shade Tree. Its to the point we are having trouble making a decision about upgrading because we don't know how other boats (even the cd25 and the TC255) will handle rough water and you are going to have to deal with it every now and then.

I do know that at least one charter company purchased a TC255 but didn't have it very long so didn't hear how it was performing. There are lots of 25 cruisers appearing up here but don't see them out were we go. We see large 27ft plus charter boats and 22 cruisers regularly.

Also how comfortable is it in the Rock and Roll catagory.
 
How she takes heavy weather is a guess at this time. With her fine entry forward and clean hull, my guess is that she will be excellent.

My 21 C-Ranger Tug, which has a Bristol Bay commercial boat ancestor, is completely at home in 25-30 knots with breaking tops. Enough weight in the keel and lots of weight low in the hull gives her a nice quick roll-rate, and she is very kind to all aboard. A comfortable cruise of 8.5-9 knots and a top of 11 is all I need to run Deception Pass at max current (if I want to, which isn't often), and just loafing along at 6 knots, burning a quart an hour and so quiet you can hear the gulls scold you, is the way I like to go. Maybe these new diesels are different, but I do NOT like to run a diesel for any length of time at more than max minus 500 rpm.

If we all wanted the same thing they could just build one boat and make us all happy. A good cruise speed is important for folks like Pat, whio work and want to max their "away" time. For old fuds like Byrdman and Dusty, poking along and enjoying every minute ain't all bad.

Beautiful Sunday, huh?

Dusty
 
Its gorgeous in the Anchorage area today. So far! One of the few really nice days we have had this fall (and it is fall here).
 
Ol Dusty my friend you have me checking my frequent flyer miles with talks of Desception Pass and the sea gulls... Too long since I have had a nice slow day on the wonderful waters...particuarly the NW waters your area is for sure blessed with.

Byrdman...moving from one state to another...with sadly...a dry hull.
 
One thing I haven't seen is the target price for these things (or is it the old, if you have to ask . . .). That would be an important consideration to me in looking at this boat or going with a Cape Dory, etc.
 
Well, I'm always the last to know what is going on around here. Went to take pictures, and the 25 Tug has been moved to prep for the boatshow, so the PIX will be in two days. Its the technology that beats me, so apologies all around.
It is a semi displacement hull, so below 8MPH it rides and pushes the water like a displacement hull, and above 12 it planes. Haven't really had it loaded so I can't answer that question, but we'll have some sort of marina outing soon where I get all the staff aboard and we'll see how it loads up.
The price really starts around $115 K with no options/ upgrades (if you include transportation to the east coast. The basic boat we are going to order will have much more because this is a great single handed boat when you throw the bow thrusters and stern thrusters into the mix. Add the bigger engine and now you're almost at $130k. Air conditioning is not so much in demand up here in New England (although this summer had some punishing heat) but the C-120 Raymarine package is fairly priced (add another $6,000). So the boat is between $115,000 and $140,000 and can go as high as the $160's with full canvas, E-120 Raymarine, AC/Generator, etc.
And just so you know everything is subject to change, it 'looks' like in October they will be going with the 110HP Yanmars (right now the 125 is priced as a 110, so there will be no price reduction). It is not firm if they will go as low as 75HP, that is still being debated. The Yanmars will do fine at low speed, but like to run, so the manual says if slow cruising, run the engine up every two hours. Same with shutdown. They want to blow the carbon out.
All the above prices are until January '07 when we expect another price bump up (no, I don't know how much. Just was told not to print a million price sheets since our next 25' Tug will be on or after January, with the price change, blah blah blah).
Other random facts I did not know about the 25' Tug...
Hard Chined
14 degree dead rise
Max range should be 5 MPGallon
Sunbrella canvas (it has a nice pattern on it, I thought it was something else myself)
Carbon Monoxide detector standard
The 2.5KW generator is also a yanmar product so the whole setup is diesel.
5 Year Hull warranty, like the Yanmar.

Hope that covers some of the questions...

On a different note, we have a 25 C-Dory Cruiser rigged with a 200HP Suzuki and it is awesome. I agree without reservation that it is way more than you need. Most 25's we've rigged have 140's and I've been out on them and they're fine. But the Suzuki 200 makes it a 43 MPH boat (perfectly flat water, full down engine, most down trim tabs). I've looked at the member boats/list and I don't know if there has ever been one rigged like this. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out for what it is worth.
Well, more to follow.
Fair Winds...
John
Y-Landing
 
New Hampshire Guy

Here are some additional questions.

1. How about the noise level outside and inside of the cabin at different speeds?

2. Smell. Does the exaust follow the boat around at slow speeds?

3. Will the deisel engine operate at trolling speeds of less than 2mph and at length?

4. Can you mount a kicker on the back some place? What kind of modifications to the hull would it take?

5. Would the two floor storage compartments work as fish boxes, and could they be insulated and fitted with macerator pumps ala TC-255?

6. Where could a dingy or raft be carried?

7. The standard features list indicates that there is a 6 gal hot water tank, but, doesn't say anything about a hot water heater. Is that included?

8. Does the $110K base cost include a trailer?

9. How easily does it trailer and pull for long distances?

10. Can the mast be used or modified to be used with a windlass to pull pots and launch and retrieve the dink?

11. Is the anchor roller a good one which would self deploy the anchor or will it have to be upgraded.

12. Where is the Anchor locker? I haven't been able to pick it out of the available photos. Is it big enough to make retrieving the anchor a one person operation and not make mess out of the "state room"?

13. Does the Raymarine Navigation package include radar?

14. Is the cockpit canvas and side windows fairly priced at $2500 and as good in terms of quality and eficiency as other custom work you have seen on other boats?
 
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