2-90's or 150 + 15 Kicker for 25?

G

gotjm3

New member
Greetings all-

We're new here on C-Brats. Live in MD on the upper Cheasapeake and are thinking about a 25. Wondering whether 2- 90s or a 150 and a 15 kicker would be more practical. We need some top end speed, but are more interested in efficient cruising, quiet operation and suitability to our kind of boating. We have a whaler cc now, and are looking to do some overnight cruising, which the whaler doesn't afford us. We like to crab and fish (we are on the Bay, right?) and the whaler is great for that. We were thinking that a 150 HP main and a 15 HP kicker with tiller control might be a convenient way to run the boat while trolling, or more importantly pulling up crab traps. Pulling crab traps can require some deft maneuvering that might it difficult to run back and forth to the helm. Does this make any sense, or are we better off just running with the more traditional twin 90's? Any advice or feedback is appreciated. Overall performance issues are also of interest. Thanks so much!

TJ and Jen
 
I'd like someone to correct me if I'm wrong, but my thoughts are... With twin motors both motors are offset on the stern. This works great when both motors are running,
Because they are offset, and when only one motor is running, the motor is pushing at an angle to the stern causing a crabwalking type of effect. I suspect that this is the reason that the people I've talked to with twins on thier 22's can't get up on plane with only one motor. Sooo... what's the point in getting twins if it will only push your boat 8-9 mph when a 15 hp kicker will push you to 6-7 mph?
 
I and two other of my C-dory Seattle area acquaintances just ordered 25s. With Honda 135 for power. If I remember right the 150 IS the 135 with tweaked stuff that gets it to 150. As is the 40 versus the 50. And as I remember Les at EQ said that the additional HP is really not that usable, it's there, but you really have to have the RPMs up there to get them. Has to do with the torque curve/rpm thing. He would put it in much better terms. And hopefully he will.

We are all three trading in or selling 2003 22' cruisers with twin Honda 40's. Just to see what would happen I have shut down one engine , raised it and experimented with what one engine would do. I actually could get up on a plane, as I remember top speed about 14 MPH. Used the trim tabs a little to tweak things.
 
I'm confused by the number of folks who feel the need for speed and yet want a C-Dory. The ride quality of our boats deteriorates exponentially as speed inreases beyond about 20 MPH. There are many boats out there that will make better use of twin 90's and provide a better high speed ride.

As for torque, the 135 and 150 are extremely close and within 5 lb*ft at 5500 RPM. Les provided specs on the 135 that swayed me from the 150 and saved me $1200 in the process (paid for most of the autopilot).

So slow down and enjoy the ride (your body will thank you later). :lol:
 
Thanks for the replies. Looks like the 150 (or 135) + kicker is making more sense for us. Does anybody have experience running a 22 or 25 from the stern with a tiller mounted control on a kicker? Is this a practical way to crab or troll? Cheers,

TJ
 
Running the kicker from the seat at the stern (25 CD) works great. The boat will troll dead slow for Kokanee if needed (15 hp Honda). Starboard side is preferred for mounting the kicker. 15 HP works great as a auxiliary to the main engine (6-8 MPH max) but any small engine would work fine for trolling.
 
Hi All;
I see other vessels in my area with a second helm in the cockpit for such an application as discussed. I think the SeaStar hydraulic steering that comes with the CD25 has this ability, if I remember the installation instructions correctly. I am at work so I can't confirm this. I don't have the experience to affirm how this would work on the '25, but if this is true then with this possible configuration the question of single/kicker vis twins becomes a personal choice.

I do run with the 90s with 4blade SS 15" pitch props. My application is for cruising and towing, again personal choice. I do tend to run heavy with all the 'stuff' my wife and I cram into a vessel.

If towing was not an item, the HONDA 150 would be my choice. The 135 & 150 has by far the smoothest transmission I have ever encountered when transitioning FWD/REV/FWD, etc..

Thoughts??
 
We have a 25 with a Honda 130 and a 15 kicker. I like the combination. With Troll Master I can control the kicker from the helm, or I can go back to the cockpit and control the kicker with the tiller. The kicker is tilted up out of the way of debris when running at speed. That way if I damage the main I have it as a backup. I have it plumbed so that I can run off of the main fuel tank or a spare tank. I carry a spare 5 gallon gas can with fresh gas. If I get bad fuel in my main tank I can get back with the kicker and the spare tank. The Honda 135 & 150 have fuel injection. As far as I know the 90 doesn't. The fuel injection is really nice on a cold morning. Starts up and runs like an Accord in the driveway. I think the twin 90's look cool and extra power is always nice. However, I think the 135 and 15 kicker work about as well for redundancy.
Lyle
 
Talked to the dealer today about the CD25 with a 150HP main and a 15HP kicker. He suggested we consider a 9.9 kicker instead. While I think that would probably be fine as a trolling motor, I don't know whether it would have enough umph to deftly maneuver a 25 while crabbing or get us home sufficiently if the main were out. Any thoughts on this? Thanks so much for all the feedback. I've learned alot already!

TJ
 
The TyBoo 25 has a Honda 130 and 15 kicker. I can't speak for the 9.9, but I do know the 15 will sufficiently move and control the boat if needed. The speed of the CD 25 hull with the 15 is 6 knots give or take, right about the same as the CD 22 with 8 hp (our previous boat). I suspect that the 9.9 would be adequate to move you along, although maybe a little slower, but any wind or current might be a bit much for it. Just a hunch. If I were faced with your choice, I would get the 15.

The Honda 15 that was on our boat when we got it is electric start. While it is handy for peace of mind in that it has a dedicated battery (I chose an Optima spiral wound type) that can be used to start the main if ever needed, the electric starter is not worth whatever extra expense it may be if the only reason to get it is for starting. That Honda 15 (year 2000) starts with no effort using the rope, and is usually running before you can get the rope all the way out. For some reason, it actually fires off quicker with the rope than it does with the starter.

Our kicker also has the extended shaft, so the A/V plate is well below the water line. I do believe that may give the thrust a little more authority in the water. Having it also allowed me to move the tilt stop up a notch so I could clear a larger trim tab. The end of the lower unit does completely clear the water when tilted all the way up. I am not suggesting you get the longer shaft by any means, just pointing out the I am glad the previous owner of the TyBoo 25 chose to get it.

I like the 130. If I were shopping for a new CD 22, I think twins would end up being the choice, but on the 25, the single main would be what I went with again. The small Honda (or whatever brand) 40s and 50s have fairly compact powerheads, and fit nicely on the 22 transom. The Honda 75/90 is a lot closer to the physical size of the 130 in the powerhead cowl, so I think it would look a little crowded to have two of them on the CD 25, which is only 10" wider than the 22. I know they fit just fine, and work great, but they don't leave much room in the motor well to dry your shorts when at the dock with the motors tilted up.

As for the age old debate of twins vs. single, I still believe Pat Anderson's reasoning made the most sense when he said "We had the twins on the CD 22, and just thought we would try the single on the new CD 25". That is about what the argument comes down to.

No matter what you get, you're going to love that boat. Shoot, even if you had a sail fitted to it, you would be happy until you left the dock. Of course, we might have to vote you out of the Pub if you did that. A diesel inboard would get you some ridicule, but we would still keep you around here.

My advice is to listen to everyone's advice, and then get the combination that you want. When you are sitting in it on the trailer pushing the electronics buttons and making motor noises, you had best be sure that the motors you chose match the tone of your noises.
 
Thanks again for the feedback. Definitely leaning toward the 15 HP kicker + bracket. Now, the question is becoming more one of electronics and I realize that's a different forum. The dealer has a "show special" whereby he's throwing in a "$2,000" electronics package, a Garmin 188 (no chip) and a Uniden VHF w/ DSC, installed. I don't know if it's worth $2,000, but it is worth something. However, I'm leaning toward a Furuno or Raytheon all-in-one system (GPS, Plotter, Fishfinder, Radar, etc.) so other than the radio, it doesn't buy me much. And of course, the radar arch question comes into play. I'm thinking of getting that, even if I don't get the radar installed right away. Seems others think it is handy for dinghy storage and other purposes too. Well, if anyone cares to chime in on those issues (wrong forum notwithstanding), please do. Looking forward to learning more.

Cheers,

TJ
 
We are putting together all of the same for a new 25, but the issues are the same. I have a Garmin 188C in my exiting 22. It has been great. There is no real right answer at to Garmin or Raymarine. There is a definite cost difference, the Raymarine being about 25% less expensive. I have decided on the Raymarine C-80, with 2KW radar, Digital Depth Module and transom transducer. Also the 120 antenna. The "chip" for the Raymarine is for a much larger area than the Garmin. There are several websites where you can get a very good deal on electronics. Not putting down any of the "real marine stores" out there. But there is a significant cost saving. www.brokenlegdave.com is one good site which has been around for quite a while. He will also give you a package price on all your electronics. You just list what you want, GPS, radar, radio, etc.

We are installing a tall arch also. Gets the radars 2KW's of radiation energy upper higher for both safety to people on the boat and better radar picture. Also the same for the antennas.I have two plus the GPS.( Which will work equally well inside the cabin) And the abillity to slide an inflatable what-ever under it.

Different subject, but if you are doing a new boat and need vinyl lettering look at www.supergrafix.com/main.asp. They have a neat site where you can choose different fonts and colors, shading, etc and see what it will look like and order on-line.
 
I have a 135 Honda with a 15 kicker on my 25 and have been very pleased with this engine set up. I have had the chance to take out other 25s with a variety of engines and feel a single engine in the 135-150 range gives you the best combination of performence, economy and value.
 
Before deciding on the 135 when I bought my CD25 last summer I was told that the 150 and the 135 are mechanically identical , that the VTEC was already there on the 135. A knowledgable Honda mechanic could remove the limiter and engage the VTEC and the extra 15 HP down the line and I could save the 1200 bucks right now. Of course doing this before the warranty runs out would void the warranty, and the 135 decal would be wrong. That said I am very pleased I chose the 135 since as has been said previously the boat likes to cruise in the 18-20 mph range and the 135 vs 150 is moot except if you wanted to go WOT and move out at 30-31mph and pound over every 1 ft wave or wake. We rarely get glassy calm and no other traffic that would allow this kind of speed in my home area.

Regards,

Peter in NY
 
Good point, if the 15 is just a detuned 20 I think I would go with the 20 unless your getting a smoking deal on the 15.

I have a 15 Yamaha 4-stroke on Shearwater (smoking deal thing) but gave a lot of thought into the Yamaha 25 high-thrust (much larger motor and many more $$ than the 15). The 15 will push me around 6 mhp on a calm day.
If I had to cross the bar at Newport on kicker I could, but would be wishing I spent the $$ for a few extra horsepower.

sj
 
OK, my mechanical curiosity has been piqued. If engine displacement and weight are the same, what exactly changes the HP rating between the 15 and the 20 ? The Honda marine webstie under accessories/conversion kits/electric start has de-rating kits to de-rate a 50hp to 35 hp. Could there be something as simple to maybe remove from the engine and get a HP increase ? I'm not an outboard mechanic, but I am very curious.

Regards,
Pete in NY
 
We have a 25 on order. the factory must be swamped from the above comments. We've just been told that the 135 isn't available, but the 130 is.

Now, since the factory sold the 25 with a 130 in the past, are there any comments on the 130? Enough power to run 20 knts? Dependable? Easy to start? Any problems? "Good " gas mileage (we're leaving a sailboat)?

Additional comment: one story is that the Japanese aren't importing motors untill the Mercury suit is resolved. But I read that the suit was thrown out. Any Comments?
 
The main power for 25's before last year was the 130. The owners we've talked with are very satisfied with the performance and economy.
 
Additional comment: one story is that the Japanese aren't importing motors untill the Mercury suit is resolved. But I read that the suit was thrown out. Any Comments?
Click to expand...

The suit is history, yes. Yamaha still makes power heads for several Mercury models, as does Nissan for the smaller Merc kicker outboards. A 3.3 hp Mercury 2 stroke is identical to the Tohatsu and Nissan offerings except for the paint and decals.

Personally, I don't think the Japanese have slowed imports one bit. Got mine a day or two after Yamaha released the '05 models, and my dealer has no shortage.
 
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