16' Cruiser with Radar?

[blueseas]

All,

I've been reading various sections of this site for a few weeks and I think it's absolutely wonderful that there are so many helpful and knowledgeable folks when it comes to the C-Dory. I've been searching for a hard top pocket cruiser that I can tow with my Ford Ranger yet have a v-berth for weekend cruising and I've decided upon a 16' Cruiser.

On the subject of electronics, I've been doing some homework and am pondering how to outfit the boat. There are a lot of "package" deals for the Raymarine C70 available, and I was thinking about the DSM300 Digital Sounder Model, Raystar 120 GPS receiver, and RD218 18 inch 2kW radome. I've seen a similar Raymarine setup in person and believe it to be a well-integrated solution for the price, particularly considering how it can interface with a computer and has radar overlays for the chart view.

This leads me to question #1 - has anyone decided to put radar on a 16' Angler or Cruiser, and if so, do you have pictures of the installation? Do you have any regrets or suggestions for how to install it or what to avoid?

Both the wife and I like to fish and I've seen pictures on this site of 22' Cruisers with a low radar arch installed with rocket launchers, I believe they came from outfits like Brooks Marine.

This leads me to my second question - For those that have installed radar on the 16 footer, anyone use a radar arch? Is this overkill for a small cruiser?

I like the smaller cruisers a lot, particularly for weekend gunkholing, but am looking to outfit it for the occasional near shore fishing expedition on the Atlantic and want the benefits that radar and satellite weather have to offer.

Thank you in advance, and again, it's nice to see such a great site with terrific folks.

--Scott

 

[Jeff Brigner]

What is the difference in price on the 2kw and 4kw radar? Is it close enough to make the move up since your going new? I don't have answers really on your questions just think if I had it to do over I would look at the more powerful radar. It sounds like your going to have the boat set up nice! I would say if you want an arch to get the radar up a little go for it!

 

[TyBoo]

The only 16 with radar I can think of off hand is C-Pup. You can see some pics of his unique setup in his album.

About the only other help I can be is to offer an opinion on this question:

Is this overkill for a small cruiser?

Nope, not at all. For the reasons you list and for the security it can provide it is a good thing to have. It only has to save you once to be worth every penny. Be prepared for the same type of comments my 28" dome on the CD25 draws, though. It might look a little out of place from the outside, but you'll be using it on the inside and that's where it counts.

Good luck. You're already on the right road here with your boat choice.

 

[blueseas]

Thanks for the reply, Jeff!

The MSRP on the 4kW radar is $2,210 vs $1,415 for the 2kW. The 2kW radar is an 18 inch dome vs the 4kW which is 24 inches. The combo C70/2kW radar/GPS receiver package retails from West Marine for $2,399 but my local shop is willing to put together an entire system for a discounted price if purchased at one time. I'll talk to the shop to find out what the price difference would be.

I have several good reasons for installing a radar arch, including:

• * Getting the radome AWAY from the radio, chartplotter, unsuspecting passengers, etc.
  * Mounting the GPS antenna in the clear, on a "stalk" on the arch
  * Higher mounting point for the anchor light
  * Rocket launchers, for saving space on the boat
  * They're not only functional, they're salty

I've been on a few boats with radar and in my opinion you can't beat the safety that it adds. Combined with integrated systems like the Raymarine just makes sense, especially when you have so many displays into one unit that takes up so little space.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[blueseas]

The only 16 with radar I can think of off hand is C-Pup. You can see some pics of his unique setup in his album.

Awesome album. Thanks for the link!

Be prepared for the same type of comments my 28" dome on the CD25 draws, though. It might look a little out of place from the outside, but you'll be using it on the inside and that's where it counts.

Right you are, I'm not concerned about the comments regarding the radome, but if it's mounted on the arch it shouldn't look too out of place.

 

[thataway]

I tend to keep my radar on small power boats as low as possiable. If you are going to be running in fog, at night or use the radar for following rain cells, then go for it. You will not be able to put a radar which will be able to see birds on the 16.

There is no radiation risk to the passangers when they are under the radar dome. As long as the GPS antenna is not in the Radar beam, again no risk to the GPS antenna. The vertical beam of small boat radars are approximately 30 degrees--15 degrees up and 15 degrees down.

I don't see any sense in mounting the GPS antenna above the radar dome.

We put the bottom of the dome on the TC 255 about 12" off the cabin top so the beam aft would visually clear the air conditioner. The CD 25 will be about half that. We have done the "commode mount" on 4 radars now and it works great--costs about $10. Use a 4" heavy wall PVC pipe and the commode flanges on each end of the PVC pipe section you cut--the bracket under the radar dome is made of Starboard--the cable goes into the back of the 4" tube with a cable clam (Blue Seas, to seal the cable entrance). The lower flange is mounted to the cabin top--hole in the middle to allow the cable entrance to the pilot house inside.

The problem mounting radars up high on arches, is that there is always the risk of hitting the dome/antenna on some obstruction.

I have used a radar arch on a boat where I needed to get the radar, antennas etc up off the deck (9' up). But I don't use "rocket launchers" on our boats. I can see that if you use rocket launchers that you would want to get the radar well above them.

Even on our ocean crossing motorsailors, we have never had a radar more than 2KW--just not necessary. If you want to look for large ships, in todays world, consider AIS--lots more information than radar and is a good suppliment.

I have always kept my radar, chart plotters and depth sounders separate. I don't want a problem with a single display or unit to knock out all of my navigation ability. But I understand that the helm space in the 16 is limited. On the other hand, I would still go with as large a display as you can afford. If you start splitting up radar, GPS plotter and Fishfinder on even a 10" screen, it starts getting pretty small....detail is important.

I am old fashioned and prefer my radar display separately, so I am not "confused" by chart plotter items.

Go for the radar--

 

[starcrafttom]

"Keep the radar low"? A radar can only see as far as the horizon, and the horizon is not a static distance. the higher you or your radar are off the ground then the farther the horizon is ( well the farther you can see) With our C-dorys ,even with a radar arch, you will not get the full effect of the larger 24" radar because you can't see that far from your radar height. a sail boat will be able to see a lot farther with the radar 20 ft off the water then we can at 8 ft off the water. so save your self some money and get the smaller radar. you would never be able to utilize the full range of the bigger unit.

And how far is far enough? you are not going to hit a boat, shore rock or whatever that is 20 miles away. you will however hit a kayaker in the fog that is 100 feet ahead of you. play with the radar gain and sea state settings. I have tracked a kayaker with mine as far as 1 mile and as close as 300 ft. love the target tracking features on these units.

they say you cant track birds with a dome unit, just a open array, they are wrong. Well sometimes they are right, just hae to play with the unit.

one last thing, here goes the stirring stick, why would you not want the radar overlay?, other then not every having done it before and you still light the bbq with flint too. this is not a question of more then one unit. if I had the money and space I would have two units, with different power sources ( sorry but five gps units running off the same battery is not "back up".)but really why would you not want to see what that green blob is at 4 o'clock. is it boat? buoy? well with over lay i can rule out half my choices. If its a buoy you will know with the over lay. Also one last tip if you have never had radar or served as a squid, GET THE OVER LAY!!!!! Just my humble opinion.

p.s. before I get slammed. I was smiling the whole time I was typing and I do carry a back up system that never fails. Map and a hand held compass. learned it in the marines and it will get me home every time. also have a hand held ( see different power source ) gps. and really if you have a good map with gps numbers listed all you need is a basic gps with a "go to' function, map on gps not required and a waste of money if you are not in the area you have a back ground map for. my gps cost $98 new and are on ebay all the time for $50 used. thanks for reading.

 

[starcrafttom]

p.s.s. I always run my radar, sunny day with unlimited sight or pouring rain and fog, its always on. if you run it all the time you will learn what it is you are looking at and the limitaions of the unit. Also you will learn as I did that on sunn days the radar will see a lot more then you do! really suprising but its true. Flat days are the worst for picking up moving objects on the horizon. radar sees them with out sunglasses or squinting. I always run mine while untied from the dock.

 

[lloyds]

How about power consumption for that suite of electronics and radar? The 50 only puts out so many amps and I know radar is an amp gobbler.

 

[oldgrowth]

Scott – I have a 16” Cruiser (well it use to be a 16) and have just added radar, gps, chart plotter and sonar all networked to my boat. I installed the new Garmin 18” 4 kw dome. Got it from West Marine for just under $900. I built my own mount. Finding places to mount the electronics can be challenging on the 16. I will post pictures of it in my album next week.

I am not posting pictures of my stretched boat until after the BH CBGT.

PS: welcome to the site and the C-Brat community.
________
Dave

 

[blueseas]

I tend to keep my radar on small power boats as low as possiable. If you are going to be running in fog, at night or use the radar for following rain cells, then go for it. You will not be able to put a radar which will be able to see birds on the 16.

There is no radiation risk to the passangers when they are under the radar dome. As long as the GPS antenna is not in the Radar beam, again no risk to the GPS antenna. The vertical beam of small boat radars are approximately 30 degrees--15 degrees up and 15 degrees down.

I don't see any sense in mounting the GPS antenna above the radar dome.

Bob, Thanks for the info on the radar. I hadn't really decided whether to mount the GPS on top of the radar arch or on top of the cabin, you're right in that it's probably purely aesthetic preference when you're on the open water. My experience with GPS antennas comes from being a pilot, and if they're not on top of the aircraft and in the open you can (and usually do) lose the GPS lock at the most inopportune time. As far as hitting things goes, I'm not planning on passing under any low overhangs... if I'm looking at the arch wondering if it'll fit, I'm probably not going to go there. In any case, the antenna would be higher than the radar, although it would be attached with a mount that rotates.

Even on our ocean crossing motorsailors, we have never had a radar more than 2KW--just not necessary. If you want to look for large ships, in todays world, consider AIS--lots more information than radar and is a good suppliment.

I like the AIS feature, and I can receive it on the C70 with an additional adapter from Raymarine. I plan on doing most of my boating in the Chesapeake for now and I know it has AIS coverage over most of it.

I have always kept my radar, chart plotters and depth sounders separate. I don't want a problem with a single display or unit to knock out all of my navigation ability.

Here's the rub - as you point out, the helm space is limited. I'm a fan of separate units too, but considering how all of the information can be presented on a single display, it has a lot of advantages: ease of installation, saved weight, and less draw on the battery. I'll have to measure the available space for mounting the unit at the helm station. Alternatively, I may fabricate a cabin shelf (like I saw a photo of on C-Voyager) and mount the unit from there... this would have the added benefit of being able to easily see it from the back of the boat while fishing, with the drawback that it blocks the view out of the windows. Oh, the decisions!

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[blueseas]

"Keep the radar low"? A radar can only see as far as the horizon, and the horizon is not a static distance. the higher you or your radar are off the ground then the farther the horizon is ( well the farther you can see) With our C-dorys ,even with a radar arch, you will not get the full effect of the larger 24" radar because you can't see that far from your radar height. a sail boat will be able to see a lot farther with the radar 20 ft off the water then we can at 8 ft off the water. so save your self some money and get the smaller radar. you would never be able to utilize the full range of the bigger unit.

Right you are! The radar horizon can be approximated by taking the square root of radar antenna height in feet above the surface and multiplying it by 1.23. Ergo, at 8 feet, the radar horizon is about 3.49 miles. At 20 feet, the horizon is at 5.5 miles. In either case, the "low end" 2kW radar has a maximum range of 24NM. I suppose the real reason for the 2kW vs 4kW debate is weather penetration and better target definition. Much more important out at sea during an inshore fishing expedition

p.s. before I get slammed. I was smiling the whole time I was typing and I do carry a back up system that never fails. Map and a hand held compass. learned it in the marines and it will get me home every time. also have a hand held ( see different power source ) gps. and really if you have a good map with gps numbers listed all you need is a basic gps with a "go to' function, map on gps not required and a waste of money if you are not in the area you have a back ground map for. my gps cost $98 new and are on ebay all the time for $50 used. thanks for reading.

Hear, hear! I wholeheartedly agree - even on a modern "glass cockpit" aircraft I still keep paper charts, and every aircraft has a magnetic compass... just like a boat. Technology fails, it's a fact of life, and being prepared means all the difference between a successful trip and getting lost.

Semper Fi!

 

[blueseas]

How about power consumption for that suite of electronics and radar? The 50 only puts out so many amps and I know radar is an amp gobbler.

The Honda 50 puts out 10 amps at 12.6 volts and the Honda 8 puts out 6 amps at 12 volts. Yes, power is limited with these options... The complete setup (c70 or c80, AIS, DSM300 transducer, GPS antenna, Heading Sensor for Autopilot) with 2kW radar requires 6.1 amps at 12 volts, and the same setup with a 4kW radar requires 6.5 amps. The two biggest consumers are the Radar and Sonar... Sonar uses 2.5 amps, the 2kW radar uses 2.4 amps, and the 4kW uses 2.8 amps at 12 volts.

If it came down to me running home on the kicker motor, I'd kill the sonar before the radar. And of course, I'd have to shed the radar if I were running at night since you need running lights... On the other hand, I could run everything plus the lights on the Honda 50 at cruising speed.

 

[blueseas]

Scott – I have a 16” Cruiser (well it use to be a 16) and have just added radar, gps, chart plotter and sonar all networked to my boat. I installed the new Garmin 18” 4 kw dome. Got it from West Marine for just under $900. I built my own mount. Finding places to mount the electronics can be challenging on the 16. I will post pictures of it in my album next week.

I am not posting pictures of my stretched boat until after the BH CBGT.

PS: welcome to the site and the C-Brat community.

Dave,

I appreciate any additional pictures you care to post. C-Pup and your boat the C-Voyager are impressively equipped, and have given me a lot of ideas for winter projects!

Thanks again,
--Scott

 

[starcrafttom]

blue it sound like you fly a little. What type of plane do you have. I don't fly my self but both my parents are pilots. They have had a 152, a piper cherokee ( I think) low wing and a cardinal in the past. now they just fly dads CJ-6. Dad just flew the arlington air show. He just earned his Fast card for formation flying. Really loves it.

 

[oldgrowth]

Dave,

I appreciate any additional pictures you care to post. C-Pup and your boat the C-Voyager are impressively equipped, and have given me a lot of ideas for winter projects!

Thanks again,
--Scott

Scott - I want the Brats to see the boat after my modifications in person first, then I will post photos of it.

It’s maiden voyage after the modifications will be Thursday the 19th when I depart Olympia for Bellingham, for the CBGT.

I will post photos after that.
________
Dave

 

[thataway]

A comment about AIS (Automated Identification System) mandated by SOLAS on many commercial vessels. See:
http://site.ialathree.org/pages/AIS/aisfaqs.pdf for an excellent explaination. It is not a "coverage" as it might be with DSC or a VST scheme. It is dependant on the various vessels using the AIS transponders. For the most part in small recreation vessels we are limited to recievers at this time. (FCC has not approved a number of units which will also transmit and be suitable for small boats).

The resolution of radar does not depend on its power. You are correct that the penetration of rain, may be better with 4 KW--but again with over 100,000 miles using radar, the 2KW has always been adequate.
What is important is the descrimination of targets--and that is dependant on scanner antenna size--the wider the antenna, the narrower the beam and the better is the descrimination--the ability to recognize two targets which are close together.

A height difference of 8 feet off the water or 12 feet off the water for a radar antenna, makes no practical difference. For the most part small recreational boats will be on a 3 to 4 mile range of the radar. (Perhaps going to 16 miles peroidically)--and the targets will mostly be at least 4 feet off the water--(some exceptions, such as lobster pots with radar reflectors on the floats).

The only time I have lost GPS signal in open water, has been in the proximity of military vessels. The "shadow" of a radar antenna in the center of the cabin top, is very small, when the GPS antenna is mounted off to one side, or fore or aft of the antenna (again out of the direct beam). Actually I have run GPS successfully with internal antennas in the C Dory 22, 25 and TC 255.

It is that occasional gas station, or other low obstruction which we don't think about which can catch a boat with an antenna which is high. We have a 2 meter Ham antenna on our truck which is several inches higher than the highest item on the C Dory/Tom Cat cabin top.

Absolutely, a compass and paper chart are required items on any boat. But so should be a DR position every XX minutes. This is what we used to do before GPS--I wonder how many folks do this now? All is well and good in excellent visability--it all of a sudden becomes much different in pea soup fog. Having the radar, to show the shore line/boats, and landmarks, as well as the depth sounder to show bottom contours helps in any navigational situation. Of course, we carry a hand held GPS and VHF radio in a sealed metal box, along with a lead line...just in case...

 

[blueseas]

blue it sound like you fly a little. What type of plane do you have. I don't fly my self but both my parents are pilots. They have had a 152, a piper cherokee ( I think) low wing and a cardinal in the past. now they just fly dads CJ-6. Dad just flew the arlington air show. He just earned his Fast card for formation flying. Really loves it.

I have my certificate for Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land, and obtained it in less than 53 hours of flight time. I'm currently logging time towards my Multi-engine, Instrument, and Commercial ratings. I did most of my training in Cessna 172SP's, model year 1998 and newer with the Bendix/King KLN-94 GPS and KMD-550 moving map displays. The 2004 model year has an HSI, and the 2006 model year has the Garmin G-1000 glass cockpit (you ain't seen nothing till you see two color 10.4" LCD displays dominating the panel). I've also logged time in a Piper Seneca V Turbo, which was a blast! Two 220HP turbocharged Continental engines that literally push you back in the seat - what a rush. It had built-in air conditioning, too, which was nice considering it was over 90 degrees outside which translates to about 120 degrees in the cockpit.

Longest trip to date was from Maryland to Florida which took about 8 hours to fly in a 172. Beautiful trip. Things sure look a lot different from 4,000 feet. Almost peaceful. A story for another time...

 

[blueseas]

Scott - I want the Brats to see the boat after my modifications in person first, then I will post photos of it.

It’s maiden voyage after the modifications will be Thursday the 19th when I depart Olympia for Bellingham, for the CBGT.

Have a safe trip!