V-Berth condensation: foam

willronco · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: V-Berth condensation: foam

Hello all!

We've begun fighting the good fight against v-berth condensation. I read through several VERY informative threads on condensation and have decided to start our fight with 1/4" thick closed cell (neoprene) foam:

http://www.amazon.com/Sponge-Neoprene-With-Adhesive-Thick/dp/B001G8E114/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_y

I have a sample of it at home, and it does indeed have an adhesive backing. Does anyone out there have experience with installing or removing it? I'm concerned that it either won't stick correctly and I'll be constantly fighting the foam peeling off the v-berth walls, or that it will stick so well that I'll never be able to remove it.

I welcome any advice or pointers!
Thanks, Will

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject:

A couple of comments:

1) I can't speak directly to the adhesive on that product, but I would use something like 202 Solvent Wash to de-wax the interior "walls" of the V-berth. Even though that is not the molded side of the gelcoat, I think there may have been some wax used in the curing process (and at least mold-release wax can easily still linger on a hull after years of immersion!). If you do this, use plenty of clean towels, as they recommend, plus proper protective gear (respirator, etc.).

2) How does the neoprene smell and do you dislike it? I mention that because the neoprene wetsuits, sprayskirts, etc. I have still smell "like neoprene" even years later. I sort of like the occasional whiff that means something like "Yes, going diving!" -- but not sure I would want to sleep next to it every night. Perhaps not all neoprene is the same in this.

breausaw · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject:

I would suggest using a product specifically designed for marine applications such as FlexForm. http://upholsterysupplyonline.com/products/1601-Black-Flexform-Carpet-80%22-Wide.html

For adhesive us 3M 98 or higher, start at the top and work your way down. This stuff will stretch even around bolt heads and any uneven surface. More details in my photo album sub album man cave. http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album1789&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

We cruise Prince William Sound from early April through the end of September; condensation is virtually nonexistent in the v-birth.

thataway · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject:

A number of years ago, a friend gave me enough 5/8 thick neoprene to do the entire interior of a 38 foot sailboat. (it would have been thousands of dollars, but this was left over from a commercial job, and could not be resold) We used a product which was similar, if not identical to the 3M 98 adhesive--and it worked very well. We also put in a very thin laminate, which was used on airplane interiors (courtesy of Douglas surplus shop). This made a great hull liner. However there was no problem with the odor of us: however it was almost a year before we cruised the boat after the application of the interior.

It seems that this 1/4" neoprene is going to be quite expensive, at about $25 a foot, 54" wide--I have never calculated how much it would cost. The carpet type as noted by breausaw is one option. I have used a closed cell PVC foam--I don't see it currently, but it was used by Bayliner in the past which was about 1/8" thick. There are also a number of other headliner materials, which also insulate. Most materials are $25 or less a yard, and some are as wide as 72".

When I had a black neoprene material, I wanted to face it--there are also number of other materials you can use for facing it, but that also will raise the cost.

If you go with this contact type of material, I would do several small area tests, including just the contact adhesive, and spraying the 3 M 98 on the surface, plus the adhesive on the back of the neoprene. I suspect that the latter will be your best choice.

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject:

You might look into an ensolite type product if you don't have the neoprene ordered already. I believe Armacell is one, but there are many. I have had fiberglass campers insulated with it (from the builder) and it had no odor. For the campers it was skinned over with a white vinyl type layer on the inside, but no-one re-doing theirs was able to find it with that skin anymore. However, people regularly painted the inside surface of the ensolite and reported success.

I agree that some sort of contact cement or similar spray would probably work well. I'm trying to remember what I used for the ensolite. It was "stronger" than the 3M 77... maybe it was the 98. It sprays out in sort of a "net" fashion and is like contact cement spray.

kennharriet · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject:

We are very pleased with this Sailrite product which is designed for marine application. We installed it in our V-Berth in about 2 hours.

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=20833

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject:

The one thing that stops me from something like the Sailrite product is that I'm reasonably certain it is open-celled foam. Ensolite and similar are closed-cell (which I prefer on a boat). Which isn't to say that others might not really like the Sailrite product - just commenting on a possible difference from neoprene or ensolite type products.

Lucky Day · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:48 am Post subject:

Sunbeam,
How about the short course for laymen on closed cell v. open cell?

kennharriet · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:44 am Post subject:

Good point Sunbeam. I was originally looking for a closed cell, ensolite type product when we discovered the Sailrite stuff. My unscientific theory is that once the fiberglass hull is insulated, there is no longer a temperature differential for the moisture laden air to condense on. We have not experienced any v-berth moisture since installing it. I think that's why even a material like carpet that readily absorbs moisture can work well. The Sailrite material does have a vynal face on the interior side which makes it easy to keep clean.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject:

willronco · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the excellent tips and suggestions, everyone! I will be sure to try a couple of different kinds of foam and adhesive in small patches. Sure enough, the neoprene does smell like a wetsuit - I hadn't even considered that.

I've ordered a sample of ensolite foam and will test it for smelliness and adhesive-ness.

I'm also now considering an insulating paint such as Mascoat delta-t. Decisions, decisions! I'll keep the forum posted on any results I find!

Thanks again,
Will

Grazer · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject:

Sea Wolf · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject:

I'm still thinking about this, but I'm thinking a perfect insulation material for cabin walls might just have three or more layers to it:

Starting at the outermost layer next to the fiberglass and working inward:

1. Relatively thick closed cell foam for pure heat insulation.

2. A somewhat thinner layer of open cell foam to absorb and then release some moisture, giving the overall cabin a bit of resilliant / dynamic moisture control and sound insulation (sound insulation would be better with open cell foam). This layer would also absorb and then release odors, not a good feature near the galley or head, however.

3. A cleanable dressy layer of fabric to dress up the appearance of the insulation and allow for easy clean up in the long run.

Obviously, this concept will work out in different forms for a ritzy cabin cruiser versus a working commercial fishing boat!

(When I wake up in my Sea Ray looking at the headliner, I wonder at first whether I've met my final end and I'm boxed up inside a casket with all the trimmings on the door! Laughing

Joe.

Sunbeam · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:

AstoriaDave · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject:

On Sunbeam's treatise on protective masks. Most of us born pre 1950 probably inhaled more than a lifetime's worth of VOC from oil based paint before age 20, but we might as well protect whatever lung function is left. Smile

As a longtime synthetic chemist, probably I have taken in five lifetimes worth.

The 3M 6001 / 7500 combination is likely a best buy combo for almost everybody. It is what I have been using the last ten years. Want to emphasize Sunbeam's caveat: seal the 6001 cartridges up inside a ziplop bag, minimum, between uses. Otherwise, they will slowly absorb organic vapors (aka VOC) and become useless.

A pro woodworker gave me a tip on checking to see if your cartridges are still working: spritz a shot of one of the citric scented cleaners ahead of your masked face, NOT into your face, and step into the cloud, inhaling normally. If you smell the citric scent, the cartridges are no good. Some VOC's do not have an odor pungent enough to smell, making it important to protect yourself even if you can not smell the fumes coming off any high VOC paint or solvent.

Probably many of us live in places where it is difficult to get hold of high VOC paint and are stuck with mainly water based coatings. I have been using System Three's two part WR-LPU for topsides and on dry sailed hulls for years, and have had good results.