Yamaha F80 does not stay tilted up, but rather sinks down

S

Sunbeam

Active member
Since I seem to have two separate issues on my Yamaha F80 (didn't realize this when I posted the other, apparently overly specific, thread), I thought I would start a separate thread for this one, since I'm not sure they are related.

So, the problem is that my 2002 Yamaha F80, with 56 hours on it, will not stay tilted up. It slowly sinks down until it is all the way vertical. By "slowly," I mean that after a couple of hours it will go from tilted all the way up to about halfway down, and overnight (so not sure of exact time frame), it will go all the way to vertical.

************

Here is the back story; if you want to skip this, just scroll down to the next line of asterisks please.

I suspect that perhaps the MY Wedge failure may have caused this problem, but I'm not sure. In any case... the back story...

When I bought the boat, last summer, I had the engine completely gone through at a great Yamaha dealer. The tilt had no problems then. They didn't really care for the dowel I had used to support it while trailering my first 25 miles, so suggested a wedge like the MY Wedge. I ordered an MY Wedge and when it arrived they popped it on, logo facing aft, and away I went. I then trailered about 5,000 miles with no issues at all.

Over the summer (2012), I worked on the rest of the boat, and the engine was tilted up (on trailer) and the Wedge was not in there, and all was fine.

Then last fall I was getting ready to trailer to Texas, and decided that I would read the directions for the Wedge since it had been months and I didn't actually put it in to begin with. Lo and behold, the directions VERY EMPHATICALLY!!! stated to put the wedge on and then rotate it so the logo was facing foward. Gaaah, so I had trailered the whole way from Florida to Washington with it installed incorrectly. Luckily, there was no issue, but I made sure to install it per directions this time. Whew (I thought).

About half way to Texas, I pulled into a rest area and made one of my regular checks (hubs, overall rig, engines), and saw - to my horror - that the Yamaha was way "down" from where it normally rides. Closer inspection showed that the Wedge had failed and deformed, and only the fact that it got stuck on my transom kept it from completely falling out. Scary! But... who knows how many miles my Yamaha had ridden like that, not properly supported. Not a real good feeling.

I ascertained that the power trim/tilt worked, both up and down, made a jury rig holder-upper, and continued on to Texas. I called my Yamaha shop in Florida and they said that the engine was probably okay. Whew!

I then read the directions on the MY Wedge site again, just to be absolutely sure. No, they were EMPHATIC that it be rotated so the slit faces away from the boat and the logo is forward. So I had it right. (But then they have a low res video on the site that shows them just popping it on and not rotating it, so that's confusing.) So, I decided to call MY Wedge. I explained what happened, and how I had followed the emphatic instructions, but how the video showed the way I first used it (which did not fail). He said "Oh, the printed instructions are only for smaller motors; you should do it like the video." Great... nice to know that now. I asked them if they might consider correcting the instructions so other people would not have a similar failure; not sure whether they have. He asked for photos, so I sent a set of photos with explanation. He also sent me a new Wedge, for which I will not be following the instructions (erm.... as instructed).

At any rate, I had another few thousand miles to trailer before I could get the new Wedge (he was traveling away from his shop), so I put on the old Wedge and supported it with two bands of hose clamps so it could not deform again, and that is how it has stayed as I worked on my boat getting it ready for launch (it's a real pain to get it in and out with the hose clamp setup, and no real reason to remove it until prepping to launch).

So, I don't really know when the "sinking" problem started, but I do know it was not sinking just before I left on the trip with the Wedge failure. Then it was supported on trailer until yesterday, and now it sinks.

**************

So, yesterday I removed the old Wedge in preparation for starting the engine on muffs prior to launching (finally!). I used the power tilt to tilt the engine up, and then removed the Wedge. Then when I went to tilt down.... nothing. Both switches resulted in complete silence and no downward movement. But that's the subject of my other thread, as it sounds like a connection or a relay or something electrical. Back to this problem though:

When I went out for a couple of hours yesterday evening, the motor was still in its fully up position, as the down tilt switch was not working at all. When I came back, I could immediately see that the engine had sunk down partially. This morning when I got up, it was all the way vertical. So, the tilt/trim is no longer holding, which seems separate from the switch problem (I think??). (As mentioned in the other thread, the engine will tilt up fine with the switches, but will not tilt down with them..... no motor sounds, no click, just silence.)

I don't know if the failed Wedge caused the "sinking" problem, but I do know it was fine before that trip, and I can't imagine that issue did it any good. Other than that the boat has just been parked on the trailer, or trailering with the "repaired" Wedge in place. Still only 56 hours on it.... (goldarnit!)

I don't see any gross fluid leaks, but other than that I'm not sure what to do/check. Of course shops are not open. I did some Google searching but it seems there were different generations of systems, and it's hard to tell which threads might have bearing on my situation.

If anyone has any thoughts, I'm all ears!

Sunbeam

PS: I have a feeling this may require a visit to a mechanic. So, can anyone recommend a good Yamaha mechanic in Washington somewhere west of the Cascades? I'm on the north end of the Olympic Peninsula at the moment, but I'm particular, and finding someone tidy, knowledgeable, conscientious, and careful is much more important to me than proximity or lowest price. I'm a big fan of the shop that did all the maintenance on my engine.... but they are in Florida and I'm in Washington (so I guess proximity does count for something ;))
 
Hi Sunbeam. I'd check your manual hyd overide screw is in snug. It is the screw to use to manually position the ob in event of up down trim failure. It should be found on the port side near the bottom of your mount. My ob moved at higher speeds independent of the switch. The manual release was just a touch open. Tightened it and fixed. This may handle your bleed down issue. You may have a stuck relay that may repond to a savage blow as others have suggested. My yamaha guy suggested that a few years had trim issues. Known problem. My trim wouldn't move one day due to temperature I think. At dawn it wouldn't move in freezing conditions. A few hours later moved fine. Best. George
 
Hi and thanks for the info. Relatively few of us have Yamahas, so I was happy to see your name in the thread (have just fitted a motorwell board based on the details of yours :thup).

So, the trim down power problem is fixed (other thread). Turned out to be super easy: A bullet connector was hanging in mid air, plugged it together (with a nice firm click into place) and all was good again. So now back to the "sinking feeling":

I was about to come ask a maybe-stupid question: Is the engine supposed to stay up on its own? I assumed it was, and I'm pretty sure I did have it tilted up with no support when I had it parked on the trailer last summer, but..... then there IS the support lever they recommend engaging when tilted all the way up.

So, I guess I need to step back and ask: Is the engine supposed to "stick" wherever I put it? I mean, this would be for either trim when underway (obviously that should stick), or tilt when parked (I support it independently when trailering). I guess I had better make sure I know what's normal.

At least now I can put the muffs on and try starting it up. I have found a nearby shop to call, but they are not open until Tuesday. Torture!

I will check the manual bleed screw. Certainly that could have wiggled loose in my umpteen miles of trailering. I have located it. Will report back.

Sunbeam :hot
 
Sunbeam":12mjj2mf said:
I will check the manual bleed screw. Certainly that could have wiggled loose in my umpteen miles of trailering. I have located it. Will report back.
Click to expand...

I checked the manual bleed screw. It's tight as can be. I'm a bit disappointed as that would probably have been the easiest possible fix, and I'd have it done by now. Rats! Oh well, good to have laid a screwdriver on it and know where it is and how it works.

Does anyone here have a service manual and would perhaps describe how/where to check the fluid level in the trim/tilt mechanism? That's not covered in my owner's manual. Of course the question would remain as to where the fluid went, if it were low, but at least it would be a piece of information, and who knows, maybe some obvious problem would be uncovered.

Sunbeam
 
I believe there is a filler cap on the top of the reservoir. My friend with an 80 had to replace the cap last year, it was cracked.
 
I had a similar moment of panic a few years ago about one of my twin Suzuki motors slumping down over about a 12 hour period. I got all kinds of advice about this and that, but the best advice I got from the C-brats was don't sweat it. So, when I want the engine to stay up, I use the "stay up bracket," the little L shaped affair that keeps the engine up. I assume that the motor manufacturers put those there for the purpose of keeping the engine up when it is not in regular use.

So, if I'm not using the engines regularly, I raise them, swing down the L supports, and walk away. When using my engines regularly, I'm putting them up and down enough that the slumping in a non issue.]

So, this may be a case of ignore and go enjoy your boat.

Oh, remember to swing the engine supports out of the way before you try to tilt down. (it is part of my pre-depart the dock check list).
 
Well now I just have to find the reservoir -- can you tell I'm a complete novice at this?

(I've never had anything larger than a 9.9...)

I'll take a photo and post it, and maybe someone can point it out to me (or maybe it will be obvious with another look-see).

Edited to add: Here is the trim/tilt area. It's not obvious to me where to check the fluid level (and/or add fluid). If anyone can tell me, I'd appreciate it.

Trim_tilt.jpg

trim_tilt2.jpg

Sunbeam
 
potter water":25bx9rxr said:
I had a similar moment of panic a few years ago about one of my twin Suzuki motors slumping down over about a 12 hour period....the best advice I got from the C-brats was don't sweat it. So, when I want the engine to stay up, I use the "stay up bracket," the little L shaped affair that keeps the engine up.

So, this may be a case of ignore and go enjoy your boat.
Click to expand...

Just saw this - didn't mean to ignore it before. So maybe this is normal? I thought I had the wedge out for a few months last summer and it did NOT slip down, but maybe I'm mistaken. It's possible, as that's not what I was really paying attention to at the time (boat was not moving from its parking spot and I was working on other things). Mine did slip yesterday over a period of about 3-4 hours, albeit only partway down (the rest of the way happened overnight, so not sure how long it took). I guess what I should check is this: If I only use the trim portion - and not the tilt - then will it stay in position? I don't think I want it "slipping" when I'm underway.

Now that I have the power trim back up and running, I can adjust it to a likely motoring position and then see if it moves from there (on this engine there is a "fast" function for tilt, and a different, "slow" one for trim).

Edit: Now that I had the idea that this might perhaps be normal, I was able to use different search terms and come up with additional info. According to several folks on The Hull Truth, the sinking is not normal, and indicates a leak somewhere (possibly internally where it cannot be seen to visibly leak). It's supposed to be a closed system, apparently. Or, at least on the 70hp Yamaha that the other person was asking about. Not that I want it to be a problem, but between being pretty sure it wasn't doing this before, and then the Wedge failure which must have put strain on it, and now it sinks down.... I'm thinking something needs repair most likely. Not sure if running it would make things worse (like maybe salt water could get in?), so I'll probably wait until Tuesday when I can call a shop. Argh.

Of course I'm still going to be reading here to see what you-all have to say.

Thanks for the input :thup
 
I put a link to I90 Marine in your other post, you might give them a call on the tele tomorrow if you dont have a solution. If nothing else they might give you ideas of what else to look at.
 
Sunbeam":2it1daq8 said:
Well now I just have to find the reservoir -- can you tell I'm a complete novice at this?

(I've never had anything larger than a 9.9...)

I'll take a photo and post it, and maybe someone can point it out to me (or maybe it will be obvious with another look-see).

Edited to add: Here is the trim/tilt area. It's not obvious to me where to check the fluid level (and/or add fluid). If anyone can tell me, I'd appreciate it.

Trim_tilt.jpg

trim_tilt2.jpg

Sunbeam
Click to expand...

The 14mm(I think) nut below the Mtr. is the fill/check for the system. The slotted plug below the fill plug has a check valve in it that probably has a paint chip stuck in it causing the ram to bleed off. There is another check valve on the opposite/inside of the pump. :wink: :mrgreen: :beer
 
tsturm":1mhcb0oo said:
The 14mm(I think) nut below the Mtr. is the fill/check for the system. The slotted plug below the fill plug has a check valve in it that probably has a paint chip stuck in it causing the ram to bleed off. There is another check valve on the opposite/inside of the pump.
Click to expand...

I was just going to post this annotated photo, guessing that protruding nut was the fill. Nice of you to confirm it. And interesting about the check valve screw - will look at that more closely.

trim_tilt_annotated.jpg

DuckDog: Thanks for the I-90 link and recommendation; I'll give them a call tomorrow.
 
I don't have a conclusion yet, but I do have an update. Figured I'd post it for anyone who might be interested, and/or anyone who searches in future.

I contacted a few places today, and, as I suspected, this is not "normal" behavior. Also as I suspected, if it does need service, it's not something a typical/beginner DIY-er would tackle. However, there was agreement among all that although it could be damaged, it could just as well be the result of a sticky valve inside, which is not altogether unlikely on an engine that has not been "exercised" much recently. The other alternative (since there is no visible leak) is an internal fluid leak.

So, there are a few ways to try to free up such a stuck valve. Here is how I went about it (one of the recommended ways).

1) First, I tilted the engine up and checked the fluid level in the system (it's the nut I drew the arrow to in the photo above). I wanted to see where the level was, and I also wanted to be able to compare the level before and after I did the bleeding operation. This is sort of like a differential wherein you unscrew a plug on a vertical opening and put your pinkie in to check the level - only on this, the fluid should actually overflow out the plug when you remove it. I loosened the plug just enough to ascertain that fluid was indeed running out, and then re-tightened it.

2) Next is to loosen the manual tilt screw. This is the screw that can be used to tilt the engine if the power mechanism is not working for some reason. When the motor is up, and this screw loosened, the motor sinks down. The bleeding procedure I followed calls for cycling through this 4-5 times (loosen screw, allow motor to come down, tighten screw, power tilt motor back up, loosen screw, etc.)

3) After the final cycle and tightening the screw again, I tilted the motor back up and put the latch in place. Then it's supposed to rest for at least five minutes, after which it's time to check the fluid level again (mine was still brim full).

4) Next, in my case, the latch was stowed with the motor still up, and now I'm waiting to see if the motor will stay up on its own. If so, then it was most likely a sticking valve that is now unstuck. If not, then I will take it in to have it looked over/repaired by the pros.

I did ask if it would damage anything further if I were to use it as-is (presuming it still sinks). They said no, but that it might not stay trimmed while underway, but rather might need to be "adjusted' with the power trim (on the other hand, it might stay trimmed). I'm not sure if I will do that or not; I guess it depends on whether it needs repair, and if so how soon I can get it in to a shop.

Sunbeam

PS: Special thanks to the Brat who made it so that I could take a look at a service manual on a Sunday (through no small effort!) :thup
 
Thanks for that :D

Last night it was still holding (whereas in the same time frame before, it had begun to sink - and by the next morning it was vertical). So this morning I walked out and rounded the corner of the boat with no small amount of trepidation/anticipation...

I can happily report: 23 inches! That's the measurement I took after yesterdays operation, to see if it would sink or not. 23" then; 23" now. Yay! So, as of this morning, it looks good, and like it may just have been a sticking valve.

Thanks to all for the suggestions and encouragement. If there are any further developments, I'll post back to the thread.

Sunbeam :hot
 
That's how I was just thinking about it. Now I know how to check the fluid level, how to bleed it, and how to use the manual override - all to the good. Kind of like getting a flat tire on a particular vehicle the first time; kind of a bummer, but then you know for sure how to work the jack, get the tire unstowed, etc. (not to say one can't/shouldn't work that out in advance!)

Oh and a note: The reservoir plug took a 17mm socket (which I now own one of :lol:). The manual override screw was just a regular slotted head, but it was really, really tight and while I was at the tool shop I got a large-tipped screwdriver for it which fits well, so I could put more oomph on it without causing damage (somehow didn't have one of those in my took kit - only "normal" sized ones). The manual override screw on the F80 is on the port side, in the bracket area. There is a hole in the bracket that you put the screwdriver through to reach it. Also a little raised symbol depicting a tilting engine.

Sunbeam

PS: I also started the engine on the muffs. First time since the carbs were drained after the major servicing (over a year ago :wink: ). Also first time since I replaced the fuel tanks, fuel lines and hoses, fuel filter, primer bulbs, etc. Fired right up and sounded happy. Double yay :) Next test will be at the launch ramp - still quite a few other unproven systems that I went through.
 
Sunbeam":3393rsha said:
Oh and a note: The reservoir plug took a 17mm socket (which I now own one of :lol:). The manual override screw was just a regular slotted head, but it was really, really tight and while I was at the tool shop I got a large-tipped screwdriver for it which fits well, so I could put more oomph on it without causing damage (somehow didn't have one of those in my took kit - only "normal" sized ones). The manual override screw on the F80 is on the port side, in the bracket area. There is a hole in the bracket that you put the screwdriver through to reach it. Also a little raised symbol depicting a tilting engine.
Click to expand...

in looking at your pictures I assumed the manual was port, mine is starboard and I just didn't see a way to access it on yours. I hear you on tools. I have a particular driver now set aside for that very thing "just in case", and a good growing tool bag that I keep on board. I think I'd like to set up a nice little tool drawer similar to the mechanics tool roller toolbox I have in my garage :wink

two weeks ago I found a tear in a deteriorated fuel primer bulb. as I drifted out in the bay with a thirsty motor that wouldn't start (no suction), I quickly troubleshooted the problem and half enjoyed the task of fixing it on the water because I had the tools and ability to do so. :thup
 
Just to clarify on the manual trim override screw that takes a slotted screwdriver: It's not the access that is tight, but rather it was screwed in really, really tightly. So I wanted a really good fit on the slotted screwdriver blade before I "reefed" on it. Access is pretty easy through a hole made just for the purpose. The only possible "gotcha" being if the bulky handle of the screwdriver lines up just wrong with the side of the swim platform (mine just cleared).

I did see on a Yamaha 40 (carbed version) that the manual screw is the same but located on starboard side instead of the port side.

The camaraderie on the board is such a big plus :thup

Sunbeam
 
Funny you should ask (and since F80's are relatively rare on our boats, I don't see anything wrong with tacking onto this thread and keeping the info in one place).

Oh, before I start, side note which you may already know, which is there was also an F100 which is the old "same engine but tuned up" outboard scenario. The engine also morphed briefly into the F(?) 75, in I think 2004, before going fuel injected in (I think) 2005.

Anyway, on my sinking issue: I have not cured it yet. Not that I've been working on it 24/7, or even close. Brief synopsis (at the mo' I don't have time to review the entire thread, so sorry for any repeats.

1) After working fine since I got it, the engine started "sinking slowly." In other words, it wouldn't hold a trim or tilt position for more than a few hours.

1.5) I did have an issue with an M/Y Wedge failing during transport; not sure if that did anything and no way to really know if the two are related.

2) I spoke with a Yamaha service place and did some reading online and the consensus was to start by doing a manual purge thingie. What you do is raise the engine with the power tilt, then use the manual release to purposely let it sink down. Rinse and repeat 3 times or so. I did that and it "fixed" for about a week, but was then back to its old tricks.

3) Then the same service place said it was likely a couple of valves inside the mechanism. They didn't have time to make the repair then, and I was planning to have the engine off the transom soonish (required for this repair), so they recommended I buy the parts and do it myself when I had access (it's on the side of the bracket that faces the transom normally).

4) But I couldn't get the old ones out (was a wide slotted screw type thingie, aluminum of course, and you know how it can be very nerve-wracking to really "reef" on those due to slippage, etc.). I was on the verge of leaving for Powell, so just left it as is and lived with it. I run with the engine all the way down, and it can be run in shallow water drive as it doesn't sink right away; so it only meant that if I beached I had to use the tilt support lever. But I mostly anchor where I can leave the engine down anyway. So... Powell called, much as I hate to have things not working 100%.

5) Just a couple of weeks ago, I spoke with a local (different) Yamaha service place, and the head service fellow said if it were him, he'd actually start with the simplest thing, which is "rebuilding" the manual release mechanism. This is about $50 in parts, requires a circlip plyers, and can be done with the engine on the boat. Sounds good to me! It's a small ball, a couple of O-rings, that sort of thing. I ordered the parts and got a circlip plyers, but have not done the change-out yet. Since doing the manual release did fix it temporarily, there is at least a basis for hope that it might be dirt or something in that. A new trim/tilt mechanism is like $2000+ so that won't be happening!

6) If #5 doesn't fix it, I might try the valves that I still have (but requires lfting engine off transom again, boo); OTOH, I might like to put in a wedge (essentially makes the engine more "slanted" so my trim would be more "rangeful" so there is that. OTOH, I don't want to do that until I move my house bank forward, in case things are fine as is in terms of trim angles with less weight on the transom.

That's all I have for now. Hopefully your F80 does not have the "sinking sensation"! (Or if it does, and/or you know more, I'm all ears.)
 
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