Why not twin kickers?

B

BillE

New member
Crazy idea? Here is where I'm coming from. My only time at the helm of a C-Dory came when Tom (Avidmagnum) let me try C-Otter, where I noticed that at slow speeds there was a bit of "wander" to deal with, lots of constant correction needed to counteract the wind. And I've been reading hardee's posts on the virtues of twin engine maneuverability, which is only needed at slow speeds. And, I'm going to need a kicker anyway, one sufficient to move my coming C-25 (single, older, unknown reliability F150) out of potential harms way. So the idea came to me; why not two smaller kickers mounted outboard for maneuverability when docking? I see cost and weight and a crowded transom as the drawbacks, but would one gain the benefits of twins when docking and working against wind and/or current?
I've never seen or heard of this so it's probably a foolish idea, but I'm willing to expose my foolishness here! Any thoughts?
 
You will encounter all kinds of chalenges in docking. There is no magic single solution that will erase occasional embarrassment. I have found that the best cure although the least studied and least expensive is also the least practiced: Study and Practice.
 
Fairbro":2k350ohz said:
You will encounter all kinds of chalenges in docking. There is no magic single solution that will erase occasional embarrassment. I have found that the best cure although the least studied and least expensive is also the least practiced: Study and Practice.
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Emphasis on the PRACTICE.
 
Thrusters are wonderful. Practice is a lot less expensive though. You would still have to practice with them in strong current and windy conditions. Not a lot different than flying though I suppose.
 
The twin kickers will probably not stop wandering. Twin screw inboard power boats have that problem, as well as single screw outboards.

Agree, the rigging would be way too complicated--and expensive--

A good way to practice is to take your boat hook, tie a fender to each end, and go out on a windless day (no current) practice docking next to the floating fenders. Then try it on a windy day...Practice makes....
 
BillE":3j6qbm5g said:
why not two smaller kickers mounted outboard for maneuverability when docking?
I've never seen or heard of this so it's probably a foolish idea,
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Bill, your not alone! I've considered this possibility as well. I've even wondered if you could use the main and a high thrust kicker for maneuvering. You would probably have to rev the kicker up higher than the main at idle to produce equivalent thrust.

As for wander, is there a manufacturer that offers a kicker sized motor with counter rotating prop? Suzuki maybe? One rotating right and one left might alleviate the wander problem.

I believe there is a Cbrat with a main and kicker with regular twin controls at the helm. One controlling the main and other the kicker.

Twin controls for twin kickers could also be installed on the rear bulkhead in the cockpit. Good for backing into a slip.

Hey I think you should try this just so you can let me know how it works out! :mrgreen:

Regards,

Rob
 
Without remote controls for the Twins (kickers) it would probably not work (well). You need to be able to feather the speeds of either the forward or reverse engine to make your boat do the twist. But there is always this. At a slip in Friday Harbor I have seen 2 boats with sets of twins. Yes, a set of twin 250 side by side and a set of something like 15s mounted on the outside. The twin kickers had controls in the cockpit.

This was on a 27 - 30 foot boat, like an Ocean Roamer or equivalent and he was using them to back into his slip. As you can imagine, I complimented him on his use of twins :lol:

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

1_10_2012_from_Canon_961.highlight.jpg
 
A couple of comments.

Avidmagnum's boat is a 22, you're getting a 25. The 25 will handle a bit differently than the 22 due to the increased size and mass, it will get blown around a bit less.

Many have responded as if you were experiencing prop walk but from your post, it would appear that the "wander" you refer to is the tendency of the wind to push the boat around. This is a bit of a problem for these relatively flat bottomed boats when docking as there isn't a lot of boat below the water to prevent the wind from pushing it around. This is especially a problem when the wind is slightly off center of head on as the bow is easily turned. While there are technical solutions to this, they all cost money and are not (IMO) necessary for a boat of this size/complexity. As others have intimated, with practice one can dock these boats under most any condition - it's just not that hard.

That said, a cheaper (and probably more useful) technical solution for docking would be a remote controlled bow mounted electric trolling motor.
 
A couple more comments:

While I had a 22 the boat that Bill ran was my 25. I’ve found that many people that are new to the boat oversteer. This is corrected with more time at the helm. What was that word... practice?

Most 25’s are heavy in the stern, the C-Otter is with one kicker.

My advice....relax and enjoy your new purchase. Take it out on nice days at first. Don’t make a lot of changes till you get to know your boat.

Build your confidence over time docking. Learning is half the fun.

Time to go fishing... Tom
 
rogerbum":5oe52omw said:
A couple of comments.

Avidmagnum's boat is a 22, you're getting a 25. The 25 will handle a bit differently than the 22 due to the increased size and mass, it will get blown around a bit less.

Many have responded as if you were experiencing prop walk but from your post, it would appear that the "wander" you refer to is the tendency of the wind to push the boat around. This is a bit of a problem for these relatively flat bottomed boats when docking as there isn't a lot of boat below the water to prevent the wind from pushing it around. This is especially a problem when the wind is slightly off center of head on as the bow is easily turned. While there are technical solutions to this, they all cost money and are not (IMO) necessary for a boat of this size/complexity. As others have intimated, with practice one can dock these boats under most any condition - it's just not that hard.

That said, a cheaper (and probably more useful) technical solution for docking would be a remote controlled bow mounted electric trolling motor.
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I certainly agree with the practice. Even thought it may have seen I was referring to "prop walk"--, it was more the form of the hull--the deeper the V the more erratic the steering...but not always true. I have experienced erratic steering in a single I/O with dual counter rotating props at low speeds, more because of the hull shape. Wind and current are also factors.

Definitely "oversteering" is an issue, and as my dad told me many years ago "You have already broken the Dragon's back". This referred to a old Chinese custom of over steering as a voyage began to break the mythical dragon's back, which might bring them ill winds or seas--and assure a tranquil voyage. I learned that a very light touch on the helm is desired. I find that many times neophyte male sailers are more likely to oversteer than female. Also that often female racers have a lighter and finer touch at the helm. Generally the more experienced the boater is, the less motion of the helm is required. Also a reflex is acquired to anticipate, and minor corrective action is taken before the boat actually begins to turn or yaw.

The hardest type of boat to handle in reverse, for me, is the long keel, with rudder behind the keel. sailboat, with a prop shaft offset to one side--often to port. On of the easiest boats to maneuver in both forward and revers, is a fin keel or short keel, sailboat with a large spade rudder, and the prop in front of the rudder, so that the prop wash is directed to one side or the other, as is true in outboard vessels. All in all, single outboard vessels, are relatively easy to handle.

Another factor not mentioned is the fact that there are none of the small outboard kickers which are counter rotating--and the counter rotation, is the beauty of twin screws. Yes, many say that even with counter rotation, the twin screws are more maneuverable, but not in comparison with twin screw, both inboard and outboard, where there are counter rotation props. In that case, prop walk does play a major role.

Tom and Joyces' C Ottor C Dory 25 was one of the inspirations when we choose our recent purchase of a second 25. (Air Head and Deckadence carpet included).
 
C-Otter also has the coolest cockpit covering around! Hey guys, I know I need to learn to drive the boat, and I'm also aware that it was me as much as the boat who was "wandering". I'm just speculating online while I wait for my boat to arrive, and I always enjoy hardee's advocacy of Twins, so I thought that I would throw the idea out there.
Also a bit appealing is the fact that I can carry a 4 to 6 HP outboard but would prefer not to be manhandling an 8 or 9.9 or bigger, So, the idea of two lighter outboards that would be helpful when docking came to mind. I knew that since I had never seen it done that is was probably a no-go, but we got something else to talk about, anyway.

But back to hardee's method of locked wheel and using opposing throttles, it does seem that one might not need any steering for those hypothetical twins used as thrusters but only the remote throttles, while still having steering on the main engine.
 
"But back to hardee's method of locked wheel and using opposing throttles, it does seem that one might not need any steering for those hypothetical twins used as thrusters but only the remote throttles, while still having steering on the main engine."
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When using the "opposing throttle" steering the wheel is not locked, BUT it does need to be centered. Not having it centered will results in strange and unusual results, not suited for close quarters control.

As to wandering and blowing around, it is rare that there is not plenty of time to put the OB's into Neutral, and walk back to the cockpit, grab both the stern and bow line, (Both easily reachable from just outside the door) and step up and onto the dock. When leaving the dock, I have time to untie, secure the lines, remove the stern fender, ship the mid ship fender, and secure the forward fender, all from the cockpit and then walk to the helm, and spin the boat away from the dock again using the opposing throttle maneuver.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

SunSet_MystryBay_SleepyC_2009_177.thumb.jpg
 
If you want to become good at something, anything really, you have to practice.
Practice, practice, practice. Natural ability comes in here a bit so those with it
may have to practice some less. Of course, 'the champs' at anything have natural
ability and also practice a lot (pro sports, olympics, construction trades, etc). In
fact, to get really really good (i.e., "Master") something may take repetitions in the
order of 10,000 times. Go figure the time involved...

With boat docking, the same applies except for luck (don't count on it).

In my experience, it is best and far better to practice docking a boat in various
weather conditions using someone else's boat.

Aye.
 
BillE,

The wander tendency in idle is inherent in the design and there is no reasonable cost efficient way to overcome it.
The F150 exhausts out the prop hub, and even in neutral it’s a surprising amount of forward thrust. Around the docks, I’m in neutral more (time wise) than in forward or reverse gear.
To make a really tight turn from idle, (650 rpm) FIRST turn the wheel 2.5 turns (about 3 is max) in Neutral BEFORE pushing into Forward. A bit more than 650 rpm (say 7-800) will really swing it around, but seldom needed. In a narrow marina fairway, this combined with going back to neutral, turning the other way and then some Reverse at idle you almost can do a 360. Agree, practice all this in calm wind and water away from the marina with a float for reference.
Soon the mate will be adjusting fenders by throwing ‘bo-lins’ and clove hitches around the rails, in the dark with one hand, but until then “Fender-grip” cheaters make it very easy to make instant adjustments to fender hgt for different docks and can be tied to the roof rails to free up cleats for dock lines. Fenders come on sale for 40% off all the time. Like a case for your cell phone but even more waterproof.
Use pilings against the rub rail when needed to assist in tight turns or wind. The rub rail is made for this and won’t be hurt.
Choose marinas with “floating docks” when possible so you won’t have the bow get stuck under the dock at 2am with a very low tide (that has not happened to us since Friday, however).

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywo ... th9i3k5f_e

You will get some scrapes and dings, many can be wet-sanded out with 400/800/1000 grit. Every 3-5 years pay a pro to fix them all to look good as new it they bother you.
Never, EVER yell at each other on the boat or off. Laugh a lot. We saw a boat named “Dammit, Jill!” Don’t be that boat.
The F150 has a lot of ‘prop rattle’ at idle. This was first described in ancient caveman pictographs and nothing much has changed since. You can get a Yamaha special SDS prop for a bit over a Boat Unit ($1,000) or just add 50-100 rpm and it will stop. It’s harmless.
Replace the trailer with an aluminum/SS with EOH SS or ceramic brakes, Goodyear Endurance (USA made) tires and you’ll be ready to trailer to the West Coast, even though you don’t plan on it now. We wasted $3,500 trying to upgrade the old trailer, but the new (2015) Wefings/Bob Austin Float-On is the best $9500 (yours would be cheaper) we’ve ever spent on boating. And only 1/3rd the cost of your idea!
Cheers!
John
Probably somewhere between the Tred Avon River and Kent Island Narrows on the Chesapeake, look for Cat O’ Mine AIS signal on Marinetraffic.com
 
BillE":10jgeywx said:
while still having steering on the main engine.
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I have a 4.5 kicker on my fishing boat(16'Thundercraft). It is mounted well over to port. Trolling out on the lake I set the throttle with tiller straight then steer using the main as a rudder. Works good except that the boat steers sharply to starboard and in a much wider arc to port. This being because of the thrust on the port corner of transom.

Twins would no doubt correct that! 8) I also like your theory about using twins for the weight and ease of man handling the engines. Not to mention how cool they would look!

Harvey, I understand steering and spinning the boat in its own length etc. but am curious how do you "crab the boat sideways" with twins? I have never had twins on a boat.

Regards,

Rob
 
A couple of things I overlooked while learning to dock 35 years ago was that neutral can be very useful in making a boat go where you want it to. Don’t forget you have neutral. I made the early mistake of thinking I needed power in forward or reverse constantly while maneuvering for docking. Bumping the throttle just far enough to engage forward for a second or so at idle (or of course reverse) is like hitting a slow motion button. Steer too of course, it’s like the jet nozzles on those space capsules. It helps you know how much wind and current are actually effecting your boats direction and keeps you from compounding mistakes in judgement. Another thing it took a while to learn is that with twins you can slow docking down by shutting down one motor at idle speed then you have even less thrust and it’s drag swings the bow to port or starboard depending on which one is dead.
 
Robert H. Wilkinson":19ztb51h said:
Harvey, I understand steering and spinning the boat in its own length etc. but am curious how do you "crab the boat sideways" with twins? I have never had twins on a boat.

Regards,

Rob
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Actually you can walk the boat sideways with a single, using prop walk in reverse--I do this most of the time as I dock--and agree neutral is very important. You put the wheel hard to starboard, and then kick the bow toward the dock, with a little nudge in forward, then back, let the boat slide bow to starboard, and then reverse, which in a right hand prop, will pull the stern to starboard. The same idea in twin screw boats--it is easiest with counter rotating inboards--because of large props, and often no keel. The Tom Cat is a bit of a more challenge, but can be done--the narrow hulls act as a keel.
 
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