Water leak in hull- forces winter projects: advice needed

[Bill K]

I also wonder if it was put in there for sound suppression ?

Bill Kelleher

Does anyone know what the original purpose was for the foam anyway?

 

[Sunbeam]

I also wonder if it was put in there for sound suppression ?

My guess would be no, as I think there would be much more effective ways to accomplish that that some foam squirted into the bow (somewhat haphazardly at that). Usually if people are doing sound attenuation it's a bit more precise and uses different materials. Of course that's not to say it might not happen to help, but I think one could easily equal or surpass it with different materials/application.

Sunbeam :hot

 

[colbysmith]

So what you are saying, is that folks are removing foam that was meant to give the boat more flotation, some sound proofing, and some stiffning so that they can make storage compartments to add more weight in the bow? ;-( I guess if the foam is really of no use, and one is careful about how much weight they put there, it is worth the trouble. But personally, I sort of have a problem with a boat that is rather expensive, yet made kind of poorly, if you get my drift. ;-( All that aside, I still like my boat, and find that so far it suits me just fine. However, I do think these kinds of things need to go into the price consideration of the boat. The fortunate thing is, at least most DIY's can "upgrade" these boats to improve upon the manufacturer. But, when one does these kinds of upgrades, what will insurance say in any future investigation? Just some thoughts for what they are worth. That all aside, first thing I will do when I get my boat out of winter storage, is going to be to check the keel guard screws and hull. It's all this information that makes this forum so great! Colby

 

[Sunbeam]

So what you are saying, is that folks are removing foam that was meant to give the boat more flotation, some sound proofing, and some stiffning so that they can make storage compartments to add more weight in the bow?

I don't like to speak in absolutes, but I think the way you are saying it is a bit inaccurate. A little bit of spray foam carelessly shot into the area under the v-berth might provide a teeny-tiny little bit of stiffening, a small amount of sound attenuation, and a questionable amount of flotation.... but really, if one wants any of those three things there are vastly better, more effective ways to do them.

1) Stiffness
Far superior would be to tab a couple of divider bulkheads into the area under the v-berth. I looked at a 2009, Fluid-built 22, and they did just that. It looked very nicely done.

2) Sound attenuation
Not typically done with a dollop of sprayed in foam (that still leaves a huge, drum-like space, at least when I knock on my v-berth flat. I would think something like some well placed Sounddown sheets would do much better.

3) Flotation
I have calculated flotation for other boats in the past, but admit I have not done so for the 22. My gut feeling is that it would require much more foam than is in there, and that it should be distributed around the boat more evenly.

4) More weight in the bow
I don't know about anyone else, but I would plan to store light but bulky items there. Weight in the bow is not really a good thing for performance (although there was one C-Dory dealer who apparently put 100+ feet of chain in the bow to "bring the bow down," and apparently nothing untoward happened). In any case, for those with saturated foam, that's probably more weight than they will be storing there.

Note that Fluid didn't put the foam in, and I don't believe Triton does (except in smaller boats that require it). I don't think their boats are any less safe than earlier ones with foam, myself, but to each their own.

But personally, I sort of have a problem with a boat that is rather expensive, yet made kind of poorly, if you get my drift. ;-(

Not to sound negative, but without going to a custom or semi-custom boat, just about all boats have "production style" builds. Like our C-Dories, many things are not done the "best" way. The core is probably not closed out, maybe all wiring is not done with the best crimps, the hose clamps aren't AWAB, some problems that will show up ten years down the line are "built in." That's not to say the C-Dorys are not great boats - they are! (Heck, I chose one.) And you could certainly find worse. But I'm just saying that they suffer many of the faults of any production boat. To do everything "right," the boat would cost more and most people probably would not see the value (unfortunately). This is why semi-custom boats cost so much more. I used to deal with semi-production boats (a step down from semi-custom) that cost $100,000 to $200,000, and they had many of the same "flaws" that our boats do - just bigger and applied to more systems :shock:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while an owner certainly can make stupid mods that would negatively affect the boat, the opposite side of the coin is the the builder doesn't always do things the best way either. Some things are done for a reason, but others are done just because they've always done them that way, because the person doing the job that day did it that way, or because doing it a better way would be cost prohibitive on a production basis. And some are done to make the boats more marketable (maybe "has flotation foam sealed in!" was one of those things back in the day?)

But, when one does these kinds of upgrades, what will insurance say in any future investigation?

I don't think insurance is going to investigate much, unless there is gross negligence. After all, if your boat burns down because the builder put in bad crimps or too small a wire, I believe insurance will still pay. Same with one that has NPT valves forced onto NPS through hulls (common). If an insurance survey catches something wrong they may make you change it before they insure you, but that would have to be something fairly "wrong" in my opinion (and heck, our boats already don't meet ABYC standards in many areas anyway). I'm NOT an insurance expert, but I just haven't heard of many claims being denied because the boat was not up to something like ABYC standards.

Let me just finish by reiterating that I think C-Dorys are great boats, are better made than the average bear (but are still production boats and by no means perfect), and are just plain fun! I knew pretty much all the flaws going in, and I still bought one (happily!). I knew I would have to bring it up to how I wanted it, but then I would have to do much of the same to any other boat. That's not to say the builds could not be improved*, nor that I don't utter a few curses about some of the "stupid" stuff I find myself spending time improving :amgry, but just that they are not out of line, in my experience.

Sunbeam

*I do think Triton and Fluid before them have made quite a few improvements :thup

 

[colbysmith]

I know I "picked" on the boat and questioned some mods....but bottom line, I still am very happy I got rid of my Sundancer, and got the CD-22. It can go everywhere my Searay did, and also where my Sun Tracker Pontoon boat before that, could go. I'm very happy, so far, with the C-Dory, but it is a dissappointment (as with any item) that have corners cut or shabby work that really have nothing to do with building costs. It's like as mentioned in another thread earlier, about hatches that leak, but because of the style of door used. Having a boat with water in it's hull because of lack of foresight with installing screws to long for the keel guard rates of the same thing... I have found this thread interesting tho, and I think very insightful for those of us that enjoy working on our boats.

 

[Sunbeam]

I know I "picked" on the boat and questioned some mods....but bottom line, I still am very happy I got rid of my Sundancer, and got the CD-22....

I'm very happy, so far, with the C-Dory, but it is a dissappointment (as with any item) that have corners cut or shabby work that really have nothing to do with building costs. It's like as mentioned in another thread earlier, about hatches that leak, but because of the style of door used. Having a boat with water in it's hull because of lack of foresight with installing screws to long for the keel guard rates of the same thing...

I do hear you on that sort of thing. I wondered if I might have come across too strong in my previous post --so I'm glad to see you post back again.

Believe me (or ask my friends who are around to hear my "exclamations" when I'm working on certain projects :shock, I'm as annoyed as anyone at "stupid" things -- especially the ones that (as you say) would not have cost any more time or money to do properly. Silicone caulk to bed everything? Puleeze. Not only doesn't it work as well as other products, but it's a real bear :amgry to remove so that you *can* do a proper job. I've spent countless hours on that alone. Good caulking is no more trouble, in my experience. The hatches are another example. And while no production builder I know of is going to seal all the deck core the way I would consider proper, not sealing core below the waterline is just not cool.

But then, I can see it from both sides. Because while I can see the type of easily-corrected stuff we mention above, and it does drive me nuts; I also know that if the builder did do everything the way I think it "should" be, I couldn't afford the boat! (Or in my case, new buyers would never have bought them, and thus one would not have been around for me to buy second-hand). So I focus on the fact that it's a relatively small, simple boat, starting out in great shape, that I can upgrade to the way I want it - without it being a crazy-huge mountain of work or complication. And like you say, they seem like they can take us places, do things, and introduce us to people (C-Brats!) that precious few other boats can do. Gotta love that :thup I really like the way C-Dory folks seem to just get out and DO things with their boats. Here, there, and everywhere

Sunbeam :hot

 

[BRAZO]

but it is a dissappointment (as with any item) that have corners cut or shabby work that really have nothing to do with building costs. It's like as mentioned in another thread earlier, about hatches that leak, but because of the style of door used. s.

I agree, c-dory has not had very good owners/manufacturer over the years. The saving grace is the fact that the boat is pretty simple. If the boat had any complex systems, I'd stay away.

That being said, we love our cd22 and the minor manufacturing issues are easy to fix - at least on the cd22.

 

[Grazer]

Silicone caulk to bed everything? Puleeze. Not only doesn't it work as well as other products, but it's a real bear :amgry to remove so that you *can* do a proper job. I've spent countless hours on that alone. Good caulking is no more trouble, in my experience. The hatches are another example.
Sunbeam :hot

Sunbeam,

What about a product like Dow Corning's SILICONE BE GONE (Silicone Seal Remover) to remove that stuborn residue? I've never used it, but the product overview states it will:
•Soften old silicone in 2 hours
•Easy to use
•Won't harm other surfaces or finishes
•Non-offensive odour
•Will not work on latex caulking
•Product is a gel, not a liquid

Anyone else have any suggestions out there for getting rid of silicon sealant residue?

Grazer

 

[Sunbeam]

What about a product like Dow Corning's SILICONE BE GONE

I haven't tried that product, and if it works, there are going to be a LOT of happy people (maybe we could just spray some over the boating and camper industries :wink). I hope it does. I'd certainly buy it if it worked. I have tried all kinds of other methods, solvents, and potions, as have many folks I correspond with. So far there doesn't seem to be anything that really works. I typically just remove a thin layer of the substrate if possible, but that isn't always possible or easy (say, on an aluminum window frame, a stainless fitting, or a plywood veneer).

Speaking of veneer: A typical experience, which, although not caulking in this case, was for something on my 22. A few weeks ago, I wanted to make a set of covers for the sink and stove in my 22. A friend had some teak plywood left over from a boat project that was just the right thickness (came from a sailboat he'd refit). Sweet! I cut out the two panels, glued cleats to the back so they'd fit nicely in place, routed the edges, plus a drain/grab hole in the sink board, sanded, prepped, tacked off (mineral spirits, not a tack rag) and started varnishing (brush). Ruh-roh.... major fish-eyes. I mean, like the varnish would just evacuate from around 50% of the surface. What I'm 99% sure caused it? Silicone. How did it get there? What do you want to bet something like "Lemon Pledge" was used on the woodwork down below to keep it in "good condition" (yep, these furniture "polishes" often contain silicone :cry).

Well, we fought it for a week or two. Sanded, alcoholed, acetoned, scraped, (cursed!), and used one of the 'fish-eye-be-gone" type products in three attempts (sprayed). Nope :amgry We just couldn't get varnish to stick to more than about 60% of the surface at best. I'd actually been ready to give up about a week sooner, but my friend is a long-time furniture refinisher (who loathes silicone like I do) and he didn't want to give up. Finally even he threw in the towel, and the teak ply went on the scrap pile :cry (I hope the couple with the rest of the boat it came from never want to re-finish their brightwork down below...) Now I'm starting over with some okoume, but that teak sure was pretty.

Anyway, I do appreciate the product suggestion. I've tried enough things that didn't work that I'll probably look for some positive reviews from others before buying any myself, but if it does work I'm going to be thrilled.

Sunbeam

PS: What seems to be polysulfide was used to bed some of the hardware on my boat. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to where it was used (I guess one worker had a tube of polysulfide?), but oh, happy day when I come to one of these fittings. Instead of hours of cursing, scraping, etc. I'm done in less than a minute with a bit of mineral spirits and can move on with the job :thup

 

[trpsurf]

Sunbeam-
Here is a picture of what I found inside the hull. It appears as if the adhesive that they applied shrunk or cracked. It was firmly affixed to he hull, so I ground the area down with a wire wheel on my grinder and applied a layer of 5200 over the entire area.

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

I went back and forth about whether or not to remove the foam, since I was removing any floatation aid. When you look at the amount of foam up there, it does not seem that it do much other than to keep the bow out of the water. Since we logged over 2000 miles and almost 300 hours in our first year of ownership, the extra stowage seems highly valuable.

 

[potter water]

What the heck? That white stuff just doesn't look like original construction for a high quality fiberglass boat. I wonder if all the CD's have that stuff in them, and if so, why?

Hmm....something seems to me to be wrong with this picture.

 

[Sunbeam]

If I had to guess? Maybe someone at the builder noticed that the stem-guard screws had pierced the fiberglass and they figured this would "fix" it.

It is a somewhat similar concept to the C-Dory "backing" on the inside of the hull/deck joint fasteners (which are made cleaner looking because they show, and which are also not below the waterline).

Sunbeam

 

[potter water]

I think 5200, if it is that would be a poor "coating" as it is, I understand anyway, not to be used in areas of flexing. I'm sure that seam isn't suppose to flex, but still!!

I'm wondering if a prior owner didn't his something pretty hard in the mid bow that caused something to give.

It looks to me like the prior owner or his prior owner or her prior owner....etc. may have done some hasty repair.

Kinda scary to me to see that. Maybe some additional, knowledgeable Dorites will be able to add some comments on that kinda ugly area of this boats inner hull.

If the attempt was to seal up the interior of that part of the bow, I'd have at the very least used a couple layers of glass...not what it appears to be.

If nothing else, were it my boat, I'd want to have a top knot boat shop look at the pix or the actual thing.

Or maybe my brain is making a lot of to do about nothing.

 

[trpsurf]

My best guess, like Sunbeam, is that this is the same material that they use to cover the screw holes in the hull.

There are no cracks in either the interior or exterior of the hull, which would indicate that they hit something. I have done quite a bit of fiberglass work (I used to shape surfboards) so I would have noticed any cracks in the hull (both inside and outside)

It is clear to me that this is some adhesive that was probably meant to cover screws that were too long. While I wish they would have fixed this properly (fiberglass and shorter screws),I imagine that they figured that it would be covered by a bunch of foam and no one would ever see it... at least for another 20 years.


I have prepped and painted this area and covered it with a rubber pad. I moved a number of light weight items up there (extra jackets, sleeping bags, etc) and added my extra anchors. Since I do not have trim tabs or a permatrim, I actually find that my boat rides better if someone is sleeping up there on the way over to Catalina. I dont plan on adding anything else up there, but I figure that this weight that I have moved forward still is less than my dad and brother sleeping up there as I head home from the island. Now one of them might have to stay awake while we cross the channel... a positive, unintended consequence

 

[Sunbeam]

It looks to me like the prior owner or his prior owner or her prior owner....etc. may have done some hasty repair.

Given that the current owner had to first cut the fiberglass v-berth and sole out, and then carve out a bunch of tenacious foam that is usually installed at the builder's to even reach this area, I kind of doubt this was done later on. Also, any "event" that would have required a major repair -and that was repaired sloppily - would almost no doubt leave other evidence, which doesn't seem to be there.

It is clear to me that this is some adhesive that was probably meant to cover screws that were too long. While I wish they would have fixed this properly (fiberglass and shorter screws),I imagine that they figured that it would be covered by a bunch of foam and no one would ever see it... at least for another 20 years.

An employee who was about to close up this area (supposedly "forever"), who suddenly saw those over-long screws, and knew that 5200 "lumps" were used to seal the inside of the hull-deck joint screws... well, I agree and don't think it's that much of a reach to imagine them running a bead of the same sealant over those screw tips. Not saying it was a good idea, mind you, but, to the good, it's all fixed up now, truly better than new :thup

Sunbeam

 

[potter water]

You are most likely right about it being a factory "feature." If so, that makes me pretty unhappy that the factory didn't have a quality control guy who would have said "lets fix this right. Get the screws the right length and then fix this area with a couple layers of glass." Hope all is well now.

 

[Captains Cat]

SPAMMER! :amgry

 

[localboy]

Keel Guard? I see that several folks here have opted for the keel guard and have had positive results. Some of those threads are a few years old, so I am wondering how they have held up over time.

Our Keel-Guard is still attached. No issues. Just follow the directions supplied. I don't like holes in the hull. I filled the original screw holes w/ thickened epoxy resin, sanded flat and installed the Keel-Guard.

As to varying opinions of needing something on the bow, up here in the PNW we have lots of flotsam, mostly various-sized pieces of wood/trees pushed down into the sound by all our rivers. (We also have large floating trees, but I digress) This is the reason I opted to put one on.

 

[Grazer]

In speaking with a technical rep from Keelguard, they indicated that the Keelguard installed as directed will have great bonding characterisitics so long as the strip does not come in contact with rollers while retrieving or launching the boat. As far as the bow roller goes, it likely comes in contact near the bow eye. Has any delamination occurred at that point of contact?

 

[localboy]

We have bunks. No issues at all.....