Just bought a used cd22 and, in drilling to install trim tabs, I found water in the top 6 inches of the transom core. I have read everything in the forum on transom repair (very informative). My question is on the SEACAST repair system. I have seen their repair site and it looks like a good system. HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY USED THIS SYSTEM? ARE YOU SATISFIED? HOW MUCH MORE WEIGHT DOES THE REPAIR PUT ON AN ALREADY STEARN HEAVY BOAT?
transom rot repair
- Thread starter anchorout
- Start date
The Seacast will be 31 lbs for 5 gallon bucket--about 3 buckets for a C Dory 22 repair.
Is the moisture only in the upper 6"--have you drilled holes and taken cored samples below this level? Have you pulled the motor and inspected the mounting holes--and under the black plastic cap where the hull to deck joint is joined--and where an upper transom core leak would occur.
Seacast says not to do a partial repair--there will be a hard place between the wood and Seacast. You have to use a chain saw to get all of the old wood out of the transom.
I did replace the transom in a 20 foot Grady White. We used 3/4" marine ply, soaked in epoxy. Epxoy in place--had cut out the old outer transom and saved the glass--bolted it back in place with epoxy for the repair (details if you are interested)--today I might use Coosa board.
To test the intregrity of the transom, put the motor in trailer position and put your fool body weight on the lower unit. If the engine flexes the transom, you need to replace the entire transom.
Sorry to hear about the issue--especially in a boat you have just purchased Maybe the seller will help out. Was there a survey? Moisture meter?
Is the moisture only in the upper 6"--have you drilled holes and taken cored samples below this level? Have you pulled the motor and inspected the mounting holes--and under the black plastic cap where the hull to deck joint is joined--and where an upper transom core leak would occur.
Seacast says not to do a partial repair--there will be a hard place between the wood and Seacast. You have to use a chain saw to get all of the old wood out of the transom.
I did replace the transom in a 20 foot Grady White. We used 3/4" marine ply, soaked in epoxy. Epxoy in place--had cut out the old outer transom and saved the glass--bolted it back in place with epoxy for the repair (details if you are interested)--today I might use Coosa board.
To test the intregrity of the transom, put the motor in trailer position and put your fool body weight on the lower unit. If the engine flexes the transom, you need to replace the entire transom.
Sorry to hear about the issue--especially in a boat you have just purchased Maybe the seller will help out. Was there a survey? Moisture meter?
journey on
New member
Bob,
Didn't you also rebuild the transom of Frequent Sea, your trip through the C-25 world?
Boris
Didn't you also rebuild the transom of Frequent Sea, your trip through the C-25 world?
Boris
The frequent sea Transom had a good core, except three small areas in the very bottom. Both sides the screws of the trim tabs and the transom drain has wet wood around the fittings. The amount of wet wood was limited, and we routed it out, and filled with solid fiberglass. The top did not have any moisture, despite the fact it was not finished properly. We re-did the hull to deck joint with a glass wrap and put the cap back on.
The major "transom" problem was the way the splash well supported the forward thrust. We found there was only one layer of matt which was carrying that load. There were "stress cracks--which were significant. We redid the top of the splash well in the way of the transom and then layered several layers of try-axial cloth and epoxy under both sides making it over 3/8" of solid glass.
The major "transom" problem was the way the splash well supported the forward thrust. We found there was only one layer of matt which was carrying that load. There were "stress cracks--which were significant. We redid the top of the splash well in the way of the transom and then layered several layers of try-axial cloth and epoxy under both sides making it over 3/8" of solid glass.
I repaired a water soaked transom with products from rotdoctor.com.
Had to completely dry out the wood, drill holes in the transom and fill with a syringe until full , then use fiberglass risen.
Bottom line, did not have to replace the transom, was hard as a new.
Bad news, cost was $500 or more, for the product and equipment, and shipping to Alaska. Had to use a ventilator due to vapors.
Was a major winter project any how, just another option. Would never want to do again.
Had to completely dry out the wood, drill holes in the transom and fill with a syringe until full , then use fiberglass risen.
Bottom line, did not have to replace the transom, was hard as a new.
Bad news, cost was $500 or more, for the product and equipment, and shipping to Alaska. Had to use a ventilator due to vapors.
Was a major winter project any how, just another option. Would never want to do again.
I haven't used or studied the Seacast system, so I realize I'm replying when you requested those with experience with Seacast. But, that said, I don't think I've read of anyone using it here on the forum, and I'm thinking you would rather have some replies on the general topic even if not from Seacast veterans.
I just want to make sure I'm reading this right. The water is in the top 6" and not the bottom 6" of the transom? Reason I ask is that when I installed trim tabs I there was no drilling to be done near the top of the transom but much to be done near the bottom (maybe your tabs are different though and have tubing or wiring or something that does go through the upper section -- just figured I'd check).
In general, I have found that repair systems or methods that try to be "easier" than just digging the bad stuff out and replacing it properly, either don't work all that well, are harder to make a good repair when later needed (if they fail), or have some other undesirable characteristic(s). Granted, I err on the side of wanting to be sure things are done right. And there is nothing I loathe more than having to do a job over again because I tried to do it the quick/easy way. So you know my bias. But my guess is that if you really do have a fairly extensive amount of transom saturation, and if you opened it up in the straightforward repair way (i.e not a pour-in system or holes or etc.), you'd find either more things you wanted to fix, and/or some flaws in the original construction that you would want to remedy.
What I find with fiberglass work is that it is horrible to start in. It feels like you are making a good boat worse, and there is just something so gross about cutting into a boat! It's tempting to find some easy way. But. Once you get started there is really nothing very sophisticated or "special" about doing good basic fiberglass work. I find that the main things are to first consider the stresses and how the repair will function and tie into the rest of the boat; to follow instructions for prepping/mixing/applying; to think through the repair sequentially; and to do good prep and work tidily. Really it's like a more toxic, stickier papier mache. Unless one is doing sophisticated things with vacuum bags and carbon fiber and ultra light weight, it's pretty basic really (there were none of these special techniques used on a C-Dory, and anyone careful should be able to make the boat better than new, literally). And yet a good, thought-out repair will be really strong and last a long, long time.
As you've unfortunately found out (very sorry to read it, especially on a new-to-you boat), it's very important to keep water away from the coring (this includes hull, deck, and transom on our boats). There are ways to do this, such as isolating the core with epoxy, although in my experience most production boat builders leave it up to an owner.
Sunbeam
anchorout":1l7q0fdn said:
I just want to make sure I'm reading this right. The water is in the top 6" and not the bottom 6" of the transom? Reason I ask is that when I installed trim tabs I there was no drilling to be done near the top of the transom but much to be done near the bottom (maybe your tabs are different though and have tubing or wiring or something that does go through the upper section -- just figured I'd check).
In general, I have found that repair systems or methods that try to be "easier" than just digging the bad stuff out and replacing it properly, either don't work all that well, are harder to make a good repair when later needed (if they fail), or have some other undesirable characteristic(s). Granted, I err on the side of wanting to be sure things are done right. And there is nothing I loathe more than having to do a job over again because I tried to do it the quick/easy way. So you know my bias. But my guess is that if you really do have a fairly extensive amount of transom saturation, and if you opened it up in the straightforward repair way (i.e not a pour-in system or holes or etc.), you'd find either more things you wanted to fix, and/or some flaws in the original construction that you would want to remedy.
What I find with fiberglass work is that it is horrible to start in. It feels like you are making a good boat worse, and there is just something so gross about cutting into a boat! It's tempting to find some easy way. But. Once you get started there is really nothing very sophisticated or "special" about doing good basic fiberglass work. I find that the main things are to first consider the stresses and how the repair will function and tie into the rest of the boat; to follow instructions for prepping/mixing/applying; to think through the repair sequentially; and to do good prep and work tidily. Really it's like a more toxic, stickier papier mache. Unless one is doing sophisticated things with vacuum bags and carbon fiber and ultra light weight, it's pretty basic really (there were none of these special techniques used on a C-Dory, and anyone careful should be able to make the boat better than new, literally). And yet a good, thought-out repair will be really strong and last a long, long time.
As you've unfortunately found out (very sorry to read it, especially on a new-to-you boat), it's very important to keep water away from the coring (this includes hull, deck, and transom on our boats). There are ways to do this, such as isolating the core with epoxy, although in my experience most production boat builders leave it up to an owner.
Sunbeam
The latest on my NEW purchase: I don't see the SEACAST as being necessary. Yes, the saturation seems to be in the top 8 inches of the stbd transom. As described on this forum, the black transom cap had separated from the transom about an inch crack, just enough to let water in. The top of the transom was not sealed. Water had penetrated the grey board and turned a 6 inch section into mud. Surprisingly, the core looked like new balsa, but was completely saturated. I have removed core down to 6 inches and am still finding wet wood.
Someone please tell me again how balsa, still bonded to the glass on both end grain sides, won't absorb water into the grain.
Will injecting alcohol into the core speed the drying process, or is that an old wive's tale as well?
As for tilting the motor up and sitting on the foot to test the integrity of the transom, I'll give it a try, but you are scaring me to death.
My next move will be to remove the motor and check that area as well.
Thank you all for the quick replies and I will keep you posted
Someone please tell me again how balsa, still bonded to the glass on both end grain sides, won't absorb water into the grain.
Will injecting alcohol into the core speed the drying process, or is that an old wive's tale as well?
As for tilting the motor up and sitting on the foot to test the integrity of the transom, I'll give it a try, but you are scaring me to death.
My next move will be to remove the motor and check that area as well.
Thank you all for the quick replies and I will keep you posted
Looks like we have two related threads--no easy way to delete one and combine. I have offered a dehumidifier in the other thread, and sent a phone # since I will be in LA in a few days.
If there is just moisture, and the core of wood is not badly rotten or splintered, then the liquid epoxy injection method is probably going to be the best way to repair it, after drying out the transom. This is why I asked about the rest of the core and condition. I have tried the alcohol method of drying and was not happy with the end results. (Long story, but involved a Taiwan built boat with teak decks, and multiple deck leaks into the substrate.)
The drying process is not easy--it involves both heat and dehumidification-drilling multiple holes in the transom.
The balsa is placed on a scrim, and the scrim bonds to the resin saturated mat which is the layer of lamination next to the balsa. Balsa is a HARDWOOD--seems paradoxical--but it is based on the cell structure. I am not a botanist. Basically the cells in balsa have very light walls, and are going to be more lighter because of the structure. However there are channels which allow passage of water between the cells. Cells are cut with the manufacture process of the blocks of Balsa. Remember that Kon Tiki which was made of balsa logs became water logged at the end of the trip. So some absorption of water does occur with time. The good thing is that you don't seem to have any rot.
In your boat, it sounds as if there were foam on the top, which has disintegrated, and then the balsa. Transoms of C Dory's were plywood, balsa, combination of balsa, plywood and foam or all foam....
Depending on how the drying was going, I might be tempted to remove the outer layer; take out all of the wood/foam and go with Coosa board, then put the transom back together. This will take the least time...
If there is just moisture, and the core of wood is not badly rotten or splintered, then the liquid epoxy injection method is probably going to be the best way to repair it, after drying out the transom. This is why I asked about the rest of the core and condition. I have tried the alcohol method of drying and was not happy with the end results. (Long story, but involved a Taiwan built boat with teak decks, and multiple deck leaks into the substrate.)
The drying process is not easy--it involves both heat and dehumidification-drilling multiple holes in the transom.
The balsa is placed on a scrim, and the scrim bonds to the resin saturated mat which is the layer of lamination next to the balsa. Balsa is a HARDWOOD--seems paradoxical--but it is based on the cell structure. I am not a botanist. Basically the cells in balsa have very light walls, and are going to be more lighter because of the structure. However there are channels which allow passage of water between the cells. Cells are cut with the manufacture process of the blocks of Balsa. Remember that Kon Tiki which was made of balsa logs became water logged at the end of the trip. So some absorption of water does occur with time. The good thing is that you don't seem to have any rot.
In your boat, it sounds as if there were foam on the top, which has disintegrated, and then the balsa. Transoms of C Dory's were plywood, balsa, combination of balsa, plywood and foam or all foam....
Depending on how the drying was going, I might be tempted to remove the outer layer; take out all of the wood/foam and go with Coosa board, then put the transom back together. This will take the least time...
anchorout":1997ptgn said:
Okay, I see, thanks for elaborating. That's an area I plan to re-do on my boat whenever I have the main engine off (it looks fine now with the cap well bonded, but I would rather glass over it and then replace the black cap).
anchorout":1997ptgn said:
That's a shame - gravity is working against you (over time). Bah.
anchorout":1997ptgn said:
I've heard that many times myself, and have re-cored many decks that had a similar construction. In my experience, it soaks into the side grain just fine (maybe it takes longer, but then it usually has years to work). There can be voids that give the water easier access, but I've seen wet balsa even when the top and bottom skins were well-adhered without any voids that I could find. I therefore do everything I can to isolate the core from any water.
anchorout":1997ptgn said:
Personally, I've never "dried" core - I've found it better just to get in there, dig it out, replace with new, and move on. However, I think that if one is comfortable with it, there are times when leaving some damp core in place is okay (as you can tell, I'm not one of those people :cry). Considerations: You need a good bond between the two skins and the core or otherwise you basically have three floppy boats not one strong one (i.e. two thin floppy fiberglass ones and one weak wooden one). The sandwich bond is what makes it light and strong. So if there is any de-bonding of the core (from the skins), then I would not try to dry it out myself, as damp un-bonded core is no help. If it's still bonded, but just lightly damp....? I would worry about what you can't see or get to, considering gravity/voids, but as I said above, there are many people who do "quicker" repairs who are out boating while I'm fixing, so there is that. OTOH, sometimes doing it right it really not that much "worse" once you accept it and dig in and get 'er done.
anchorout":1997ptgn said:
Great - we all love follow up
Photos would help us to see what you are up against too.Sunbeam
thataway":15acr7v6 said:
I'm thinking from reading your reply that I didn't express myself very well (wouldn't be the first time).
To clarify, I agree that damp core doesn't necessarily have to be removed. In many cases it is still well bonded to the skins and can continue to do the job of contributing to a strong transom.
For me the worry about what I could not see, along with perfectionist tendencies (and having opened up some "small" repairs where I was very glad I did and was able to see something I would not have wanted to leave alone), would have me removing back to dry core and repairing from there, but perfectionism isn't always the way to go -- just depends on the person/situation. I've also known people who have sailed for years with damp deck core (bond was still good), and made many good memories.
Sunbeam
Once I moved the motor out of the way, and removed the cap, and took core samples throughout the core, I found that the wet wood was present at the top stbd area, from the bad cap joint, and near the port lower motor mount (new motor 6 mos ago) poorly installed at the marina. (personally, I would NEVER let a marina near any core area of my boat.)
I drilled vertical holes through the wet areas, ran small diameter tubing to the bottom of each hole, all attached to a small vacuum. I placed heat lamps on both sides of the transom. After two days the holes have enlarged, signifying dampness is being drawn from the wood and it is shrinking.
I have found only a small area of rot around the bolt hole. all other wood looks like new. I plan to dry out for a few weeks, saturate with penetrant epoxy, regular epoxy, then glass in the top of the transom.
Thanks for all the advise and personal experiences given. Wish me luck.
I drilled vertical holes through the wet areas, ran small diameter tubing to the bottom of each hole, all attached to a small vacuum. I placed heat lamps on both sides of the transom. After two days the holes have enlarged, signifying dampness is being drawn from the wood and it is shrinking.
I have found only a small area of rot around the bolt hole. all other wood looks like new. I plan to dry out for a few weeks, saturate with penetrant epoxy, regular epoxy, then glass in the top of the transom.
Thanks for all the advise and personal experiences given. Wish me luck.
Sounds like a reasonable plan. Be sure and use the proper thined epoxy, and then after it has set up, do the proper drill out, under cut of the other areas where holes were in the epoxy.
I would still use a moisture meter on the transom to follow the trying process. I think in this case of the relitatiely in-expensive Ryobi meters would be adequate, since you have the motor off, and you are looking at relitative values.
I would still use a moisture meter on the transom to follow the trying process. I think in this case of the relitatiely in-expensive Ryobi meters would be adequate, since you have the motor off, and you are looking at relitative values.
anchorout":21dkkv50 said:
I think I can answer that. Although, as Thataway mentions, the Ryobi is not considered a "real" moisture meter for boats, in my experience it can be used for some crude-but-useful comparisons. I was not able to access my usual boat moisture meter when I looked at what is now my C-Dory, so I went to Home Depot and picked up one of the Ryobis. IIRC it was around $50. I knew just about where I should be looking for moisture, and was only looking for a very basic idea, and it seemed to work for that. In subsequent actual sampling (I have been systematically over-drilling/filling all core penetrations), I haven't found any surprises as compared to what I found with the Ryobi. Of course a "good" boat moisture meter is better, but they cost more and aren't available quickly in the neighborhood.
One other note is to be aware of when these meters will give you false readings (around metal fittings, with bottom paints that contain metal, etc.). But the C-Dory is pretty simple and the places where you would expect moisture pretty predictable.
Oops, sounds like I didn't word that well.
Yes, wholeheartedly agree, that the "proper" boat moisture meters are affected by metal, bottom paint, surface moisture, temperature, and other things. You kind of have to have a "feel" for how to read them. That said, I think they're still better than something like the Ryobi from Home Depot. BUT, the Ryobi is much better than nothing, especially if you know what you are looking for (and you pretty much do). I had a professional Skipper model available to me at home, but not where I was looking at the boat, hence the Ryobi for that one use.
I still never 100% trust any moisture meter and only *really* believe a physical sample.
Sorry for any confusion.
Yes, wholeheartedly agree, that the "proper" boat moisture meters are affected by metal, bottom paint, surface moisture, temperature, and other things. You kind of have to have a "feel" for how to read them. That said, I think they're still better than something like the Ryobi from Home Depot. BUT, the Ryobi is much better than nothing, especially if you know what you are looking for (and you pretty much do). I had a professional Skipper model available to me at home, but not where I was looking at the boat, hence the Ryobi for that one use.
I still never 100% trust any moisture meter and only *really* believe a physical sample.
Sorry for any confusion.