I did look through the engine forum for an answer but didn't find anything specific for my problem. I have twin 35 hondas. The steering effort to turn left is way too much, and with hands off the boat will immediately turn right. The tabs on the motor legs have been adjusted with additional angle to the right but I am still not getting close to acceptable. Is there written somewhere an approximate angle or setting that would take this torgue steer out, or should I just keep going to the right. The tachs say the engines are running identical rpm, and I had another thought sunday while testing it, what if the props are not identically pitched, even though they are stamped the same. I tried running the starboard engine up a couple hundred rpm and it really helped. The former owner did make a comment after I bought it that one of the engines was good for coho and one was better for king. Which has to mean one gives a different trolling speed than the other. Anyone have any other ideas of what to try or look at?
torque steer
- Thread starter lloyds
- Start date
Hi Sue'C,
Two questions:
a) are your engines truly parallel, or at least working in the same direction?
ii) do you have engine trim gauges, and do the engines really trim identically?
3) which engine steers best/easiest when you run only one at a time?
These might contribute their share of your problems.
Rod
Two questions:
a) are your engines truly parallel, or at least working in the same direction?
ii) do you have engine trim gauges, and do the engines really trim identically?
3) which engine steers best/easiest when you run only one at a time?
These might contribute their share of your problems.
Rod
The engines have 1/2 " of toe in, the trim guages indicate the same and the engines respond the same with the same sound when I over trim at the same point on the guage but I will check that. I have not tried to determine which engine turns the best when the other is not being used. I can try it but don't know if it will teach me anything because of the torque on either side of centerline. In all this experimenting I did trim one engine out of the water and attempt to plane with the other. It apparently did plane as I was able to attain about 5200 rpm at about 17 mph, so I assume I was on plane. But you could tell the engine was struggling a bit.
journey on
New member
A side question. When Judy bought Journey On, they installed a counter-rotating (left hand) engine. Don't ask, it happened, and works as well as a right hand engine.
However, myu understanding is that LH engines were used when there were twin engines on the boat. This was intended to reduce engine torque steer. From the above discussion I assume this isn't true.
So, from those who have twin engines, how many, if any, have counter-rotating engines? I do know the propellers aren't interchangeable.
I'm also curious why twin engines on a 16' boat? If they're both RH, doesn't the boat want to torque steer? And, no I don't know which way.
Boris
However, myu understanding is that LH engines were used when there were twin engines on the boat. This was intended to reduce engine torque steer. From the above discussion I assume this isn't true.
So, from those who have twin engines, how many, if any, have counter-rotating engines? I do know the propellers aren't interchangeable.
I'm also curious why twin engines on a 16' boat? If they're both RH, doesn't the boat want to torque steer? And, no I don't know which way.
Boris
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
journey on":2r9noiid said:
Boris, I believe Lloyd bought a 22 with twins...
To answer Boris' question--some of the Tom Cats have counter rotating, and some don't. The ones I sea trialed with counter rotating performed better (in my opinion). On cats the counter rotating are reversed from those on the monohull. This gives an inward prop wash and more stern lift--which is desirable in cats.
Certainly with inboards, almost always counter rotating engines, or transmissions are installed. For example almost all of the twin engine grand banks, have right handed engines, but the port transmission is left handed rotation. Thus the gear ratio is different--and a different pitch porp is used on the port side, than on the stb side. RPM's remain very close--because the prop pitch accounts for the difference in the tranny.
For some reason an earlier post seems to not have arrived on the site. I suggested looking at the type of steering--and gonig to a non feed back steering if it wss not already installed (can be mechanical or hydraulic).
The difference in speed making a difference in torque does suggest perhaps some difference in prop pitch. You can get props balanced to accuractly pitched with "prop scan"--this seems to be done more with inboards, than outboards, but might be worth doing here.
One question I would ask, is this a safety issue?
Certainly with inboards, almost always counter rotating engines, or transmissions are installed. For example almost all of the twin engine grand banks, have right handed engines, but the port transmission is left handed rotation. Thus the gear ratio is different--and a different pitch porp is used on the port side, than on the stb side. RPM's remain very close--because the prop pitch accounts for the difference in the tranny.
For some reason an earlier post seems to not have arrived on the site. I suggested looking at the type of steering--and gonig to a non feed back steering if it wss not already installed (can be mechanical or hydraulic).
The difference in speed making a difference in torque does suggest perhaps some difference in prop pitch. You can get props balanced to accuractly pitched with "prop scan"--this seems to be done more with inboards, than outboards, but might be worth doing here.
One question I would ask, is this a safety issue?
journey on":3e0ocewj said:
Boris,
1). If I'm not mistaken counter rotating props are not available under a 100 HP outboard. Therefore, those of us with 22' C-Dorys do not have a counter-rotating engine.
2) If my twin 50 HP RH engines cause the boat to torque steer, it isn't noticeable to me.
I have Morse standard steering on the 22'. It is a 1996 and I imagine that was standard in that era. NFB would be nicer but might not have let me know I have a problem. My wife is a ton smaller than me (figuratively speaking) so turning to the left is hard for her. I notice that after a couple hours it gets really tiring. At some point I may convert the steering but only after the torque problem is resolved. Right now the fin tabs are probably 20 degrees or a little more. I am going to the river tomorrow so tonight I will probably put on maybe 5 or 10 more degrees and see if that helps.
lloyds,
I had a 22 cruiser with a single 70hp with cable steering (not NFB).
When the engine was trimmed all the way in (down) the boat would pull to the right. As I trimmed the engine out (up), the pull-to-the-right would decrease.
I would experiment with trim; try from full in (down) to full out (up). Also try reducing the tow-in.
Torque steer is inherent in any outboard, try to find the best combination of trim fin angle, motor trim, and toe in to reduce the pull at the speed and trim angle required for your boat and running conditions.
I had a 22 cruiser with a single 70hp with cable steering (not NFB).
When the engine was trimmed all the way in (down) the boat would pull to the right. As I trimmed the engine out (up), the pull-to-the-right would decrease.
I would experiment with trim; try from full in (down) to full out (up). Also try reducing the tow-in.
Torque steer is inherent in any outboard, try to find the best combination of trim fin angle, motor trim, and toe in to reduce the pull at the speed and trim angle required for your boat and running conditions.
I bought a very inexpensive inclinometer at West Marine and mounted it on the dash of C-Byrd and loved it. It took the guess work out of "am I running flat". Now, I see they have some snazzy digital assist (digital read out rather than just the bubble in the level) available, for less than $30. I do not recall ever having an issue with not being able to clearly see the bubble on the one I had. If for nothing else, it made sure on cruises that I was running true, which, for sure increased my fuel efficiency. I really liked it.
Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Inclinomete ... 2eac5d88db
Larry is on target with what my late Father use to tell me in our boats with old cable steering.... "Tilt the motor up or down until it has neutral pull or until you can let go of the wheel and the boat still remain on a straight course." A different angle for different speeds was noted....and, it just felt better on your arms, particularly if you had a beverage in one of your hands.
Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Inclinomete ... 2eac5d88db
Larry is on target with what my late Father use to tell me in our boats with old cable steering.... "Tilt the motor up or down until it has neutral pull or until you can let go of the wheel and the boat still remain on a straight course." A different angle for different speeds was noted....and, it just felt better on your arms, particularly if you had a beverage in one of your hands.
Larry H. and Byrdman,
Both of you are talking about the Asymmetric Disk Effect on the props, which is different than prop-walk. Prop-walk is always there, although it makes itself most known at low speeds. ASD (pilots call it P-factor) is a function of the angle at which water flow intersects the disk of the spinning prop, and goes to zero when the disk is at right angles to the flow. So, with an O/B or I/O, you can get up on plane at a speed you want and then change engine trim to dial it out. That is how I've handled NoddyBleu: get her up on plane and reduce the trim tabs until I maximize the MPG (from the Honda fuel management system) while keeping the boat pretty level, port & starboard. Once there, I adjust the trim so that the boat will hold a course without hands on the wheel. At that point I assume that the propshaft is parallel to the surface of the water, even though the boat is slightly bow-up. MPG may have improved some more. After that, only minor adjustments may be necessary: to compensate for waves, for when I cross a wrack line, or for other variables of wind and current. I think that these principles would apply to twin engines, but might be a little more nuanced, especially on big set-ups where the props are counter-rotating.
(I keep a six inch bubble level lying on the centre dash; it also should be useful for fore & aft trim, but the dash is not level -- even at rest -- and I haven't worked that part out, yet. I sold NoddyBleu last week, so I may never work it out.) This is fun stuff!
Rod
Both of you are talking about the Asymmetric Disk Effect on the props, which is different than prop-walk. Prop-walk is always there, although it makes itself most known at low speeds. ASD (pilots call it P-factor) is a function of the angle at which water flow intersects the disk of the spinning prop, and goes to zero when the disk is at right angles to the flow. So, with an O/B or I/O, you can get up on plane at a speed you want and then change engine trim to dial it out. That is how I've handled NoddyBleu: get her up on plane and reduce the trim tabs until I maximize the MPG (from the Honda fuel management system) while keeping the boat pretty level, port & starboard. Once there, I adjust the trim so that the boat will hold a course without hands on the wheel. At that point I assume that the propshaft is parallel to the surface of the water, even though the boat is slightly bow-up. MPG may have improved some more. After that, only minor adjustments may be necessary: to compensate for waves, for when I cross a wrack line, or for other variables of wind and current. I think that these principles would apply to twin engines, but might be a little more nuanced, especially on big set-ups where the props are counter-rotating.
(I keep a six inch bubble level lying on the centre dash; it also should be useful for fore & aft trim, but the dash is not level -- even at rest -- and I haven't worked that part out, yet. I sold NoddyBleu last week, so I may never work it out.) This is fun stuff!
Rod
lloyds,
Sorry I am confused here but your profile says you have a 16 with a single 50. So, is this an issue with the 16, and did you repower to the 35's?
Yes it will turn to the deep (weighted) side. And in a 16 this will be much more noticable than a 22. The 16 will be more responsive to weight and balance adjustments. On our 22 with twin 40's, the corrective fins are set at nearly dead center, and no, there is no counter rotating power at our low HP ratings. If you have trim tabs and are using them to get your boat trimmed laterally (left to right) you would have the starboard tab down to bring up that side due to your weight there, and and that may be causing the drag to cause the starboard turn.
Prop swap sounds like a good place to start. Then lateral trim, while siting still in the water. Then make sure the trim tabs are set equal and up, and then trim engines to full down and then go run on the water, adjusting engine trim up while maintaining the lateral trim.
And remember, sometimes curves are a good thing :wink
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Sorry I am confused here but your profile says you have a 16 with a single 50. So, is this an issue with the 16, and did you repower to the 35's?
Yes it will turn to the deep (weighted) side. And in a 16 this will be much more noticable than a 22. The 16 will be more responsive to weight and balance adjustments. On our 22 with twin 40's, the corrective fins are set at nearly dead center, and no, there is no counter rotating power at our low HP ratings. If you have trim tabs and are using them to get your boat trimmed laterally (left to right) you would have the starboard tab down to bring up that side due to your weight there, and and that may be causing the drag to cause the starboard turn.
Prop swap sounds like a good place to start. Then lateral trim, while siting still in the water. Then make sure the trim tabs are set equal and up, and then trim engines to full down and then go run on the water, adjusting engine trim up while maintaining the lateral trim.
And remember, sometimes curves are a good thing :wink
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
When we had our Duck c-22 with 90hp Suzuki with a 14/18 prop the torgue was unbelievable you had to have the trim on 4out of 5 to get it to steer properly. If you want to get away from the torgue steering problem install hydraulic steering . With our cape cruiser (venture23) witha F-115 with hydraulic steering no problems .