The good and the oh-so bad.

Gosh! Doesn't anyone have an opinion? JJ

SeaWolf - my conversations with Les pretty much reflect that he calls a spade a spade, and on several items he has expressed opinions contrary to the apparent factory direction in my experience.

Anyway..... It seems to me that this evolution is somewhat like the small Jeep's twisted path to what it is now. Just look back to 1947, 1987, and up to now! And, almost all cars started out as something the owner could easily work on and evolved into models for which you have to have a franchise and special computers to do the simplest modification or repair.

Over the years, I have enjoyed working on boats, rebuilding, customizing, etc., but right now I just don't have the time. I want my boat pretty much "done" and ready to go so I can spend what little time off I have using it on the water. I remember my first close look at a CD-22 at the factory and, yes, I am guilty, I remarked that I wanted a finished cockpit floor, etc..

Fortunately for all of us, the core, original, classic C-Dory ppl are still on this site and have the know-how and gumption to take a saw to the hulls, cabinets, whatever, and make wonderful customizations for their specific uses.

I guess we're a mix of the "end-users" with little or no hankering for tinkering and the "git- er done" crowd with amazing skills in machinework, carpentry and glasswork. Fortunately, the "end-users" can show photos of the "git er done's" work to other local "git er dones" so we can eventually incorporate those neat mods in our own boats.

PS When I grow up, I want a friend just like Dave of Anna Leigh!
John
 
Hi Folks,

After reading a lot of your comments, I think the folks at C-Dory ought to read L.L.BEAN by Leon Gorman, the grandson of L.L.Bean. Then they might get a feeling about what business is all about. Has anybody wondered while Niddelli got fired at Home Depot? I believe that it has something to do about cutting into the core of store personnel. A friend of mine, who under the old management of Home depot was promised a bonus if he stayed to ten years employment, was fired on 9 years, 51 weeks. It seems Naddili looks for cheap employees, not knowledgable employees.. Now when I go into Home Depot, the first question I ask an employee is "Yo Habla Ingles." I get interesting answers.

I think C-dory is spending to much time looking at the bottom line then listening to the users of their boats. They are lucky in that they can "listen" by going on the internet a bringing up this site. C-Brats.com.

Fred
 
Here, Here... I , for one, agree that it's about time for C-Dory to hurry up and not change!

The Sooners are better.... I mean the betters are Sooners.... no...um.... well, so there!

John
 
G-mornin' gang. Just read through a bunch of great posts.

Sort of reminds me of when they put electric starters on automobiles. Whew!

Sit a spell, have a cup, and watch. Me? Gonna try one of them thar Zipideedo omlettes in a few and watch the snow over by the potato farmer!! (you up yet Rog??)

Dusty
 
I am somewhat disturbed by the factory reasoning for these changes. "To be able to make them Faster and Cheaper". I think that is exactly the problem that gets some of us going about all the little lack of attention items on our boats!!!
I have a good friend that is in the boat deciding phase of boat purchasing right now and we have gone over all this. I don't want him to buy un informed and have been trying to sort all this stuff with him. Do you think factory acknowledgement of "Faster and Cheaper increases his confidence? As I mentioned earlier "give folks the option to spend more in hopes of getting more and none of this is relevent." Make them take what they are opposed to and watch what happens!
Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
Leo Smith":2p24xhsn said:
In the previous post from Les, I see two phrases that jump our as "red flags"

"broaden the appeal to a larger market"
"market a boat that works in many areas and appeals to a wide audience"

It worked for Bayliner! Bayliner Marine started out as a local Seattle area builder of fiberglass runabouts and became one of the largest recreational boat builders in the world, prior to being acquired by Brunswick.

I hope that C-Dory Marine doesn't "dumb down" the design design of their boats or cut corners on the construction to reach their goals. I think C-Dory is a great boat BECAUSE it doesn't appeal to a wide audience!

Best Regards,
Leo
Click to expand...

Guess it depends on why the owners are building boats. If they are building
boats to make more money, then the changes are perhaps worthwhile.

However, at some point the boat will look almost like a Bayliner, so, you
have to ask what advantages remain with the C-Dory over a Trophy?
Will it come down to 2 deg deadrise and thus better economy than a
Trophy? Hmmmm....

Is it better to stay in the niche market and do it well, or move out and
try to increase production and appeal to a wider audience? I guess
it depends on why you are building boats.

As for Cape Cruiser and their molded interior: well, they had to do something
different than C-Dory, otherwise what would be the point :-)?

Look forward to seeing one of these in person sometime.

Mike
 
I have no interest in accessing the wiring
Click to expand...



Well there you go, thats the market they are aiming for.

What sold me on the C-Dory was the user/service friendly nature of the boat.
Like someone said, a " volkswagen of the sea".
What you are seeing is a aircooled being transitioned into water cooled.

Bottom line. Like a previous poster said quite correctly "an end of an era"


James
 
Every business school in the country is studying this very same issue. Ask any Mom and Pop store owner of the 40's and 50's whether quality products and attentive service had any chance against economies of scale and cheap labor. Better yet, watch South Park.
 
Hey there Dusty
Yeah, I am up over here ....lol.... quite waterlogged tho

this has turned into quite the thread. I saw the new boat at the Fife dearlership last Sat and am glad that i am not looking to buy new. But I feel that the factory has to do whatever to stay in business and I am sure that they have thought about everything we have ranted on here more than we will ever know. come on people, give the factory time and see what happens.

I would be quite pissed if I had ordered a new boat (old style interior ) and it arrived with the new style and not what i was expecting. but a new order will be of the new style and the person ordering it will know what he/she is ordering.

Time will tell whether the new style will be accepted by the buying public. so lets all just play the waiting game and enjoy what we have and try to be supportive to the factory.
 
Just because something is efficiently produced, that does not mean it is of lesser quality. On the contrary, reliably repeatable manufacturing steps ensure greater quality and reliability.

C-Dory could have workers bend a bunch of strakes and bond each one individually to build the hull bottom as in the old days. Each worker would, to some extent, slightly vary the amount of bonder, binder, fasteners, pressure, etc., as he/she worked to build up the hull that way. These variables introduce questions when the manufacturer is trying to find out what works and what might be leading to failures in boat performance down the line.

By eliminating as many variables as possible, using a hull mold results in a more reliable hull structure and gives both a higher quality product and lower cost production by reducing man hours. You could also make more hulls cheaper. More hulls cheaper and BETTER quality.

The interior cabinetry has been essentially a carpenter's product using skilled workers to cut, fit, glue, screw, staple, whatever until all the small pieces come together inside the hull. If a worker is sick, absent, stressed, injured, pre-occupied, etc., more variables will likely be introduced into the final product.

Once the time and money is invested into molding the interior, the final outcome is much more consistent. If a problem arises, there are fewer variable to explore in trying to find the cause. Molds give you a faster, cheaper, more reliable system to build a quality product by ensuring a more consistent process with fewer human variables involved.

I like custom wood work as well as the next guy, but I'd rather see the labor go into teak or mahogany trims, etc, rather than a vinyl covered pressboard panel. We each have the option of hiring a skilled cabinet worker, or choosing a friend like Dave..., to add charm and personality to the boat and it's interior.

You won't see very many ISO 9000 products with hand sculpture, hand welding, hand machining, hand carpentry, because human beings are just not as reliable as a machine doing repetative tasks.

Again, I like customized things, but we can all either do that ourselves, or hire someone if we wish. The important thing is to get a strong, sturdy, reliable hull and interior upon which to work our 'magic'.

John
 
You're right Dr. John. But, everytime I visit the Whole Foods megamarket I still miss Riggio's Market where I could ask Tony and his sister for 5 cents soup greens and please put in a carrot.
 
You know, Marty, We can still get that if we wish. Wooden boat building school, small town shopping. Believe me, I much prefer shopping in the tiny town out by my farm than the big stores in Wichita.

In fact, the bigger the mega-stores grow, the more openings there are for new mom and pop enterprises. That is actually starting to happen right here and now. Basically, Wal-Mart only carries something that the average guy is gonna buy in say, the next 30 days. As such, many unique products are below their radar.

As for the C-Dory, it seems to me that the logical extension of what many of you are saying is that noone should even be using fiberglass molds for the hull. Heck, a Sawzall will just as easily whack a section out of that molded cabinetry as it would a vinyl coated, pressed wood panel. No one is outlawing customization by the end user.


I personally have a strong distaste for vinyl covered, pressed board furniture!!! Ugghh.... If we were arguing that Oak, teak or some great walnut cabinet was better than the molded, I could see that point a bit better.

John
 
Wow!!! First off I'll say that I was also one who wanted some change in the Cdory before buying, the old cockpit floor I could not stand, and to my eye the all glass door is a major improvement( visibility). My boat was the first to have these changes, which I think turned out great. But I'm sure the ones they are doing now are are made even better in those area's since mine was the first. I would say the same thing will probably happen with the new interior, even though I have yet to see it. It's new to them too. They I'm sure will keep tweaking it until they get it right. And I am no fan of the current interior( decraguard), I mean it's functional but I'll side with Rogerbum, hard to clean, etc. And done right I would probably prefer a molded interior. Not to say I would or wouldn't like the current version, but I will give Cdory a chance, let's see what they come up with. And whatever you might think the boat is not a bayliner. It still has the characteristic hull, The great salty look, and alot of other things that make these boats great. I have no doubt that some changes will be made , especially after Cdory reads this thread. Lets see what happens. And on another note, I can not find fault with a business for trying to expand their market. That is the nature of business, which the goal ultimately is to be sucessful. My father has a saying in business , that every so often you have to reinvent yourself somewhat otherwise you will fall behind and end up closing your doors. I know none of us would benefit from that. And being an owner of a business is an evolution, I know in my family business it has been. In the past 6-7 years we have changed alot of things and I believe those changes have helped us stay current and be able to bring a good paycheck home to take care of my family. I can not find fault with someone else trying to do the same. Anyway, I say give it time. lets not jump to any conclusions about what the final version will look like until we reach that point. Who knows it could turn into something really nice and totally functional. Only time will tell.

Sark
 
Anyway, I say give it time. lets not jump to any conclusions about what the final version will look like until we reach that point. Who knows it could turn into something really nice and totally functional. Only time will tell.
Click to expand...


I guess I am confused here, are these new boats being sold or not?
I was under the assumption they were, apparently they are prototypes that we are discussing.


James
 
As pointed out earlier in the thread, I did have a chance to see the new molded interior and in my opinion, I believe the galley cabinet on the starboard side of the cabin could indeed be customized as you see fit. It's really no different underneath as the decraguard cabinets. There are still the two doors to access open space underneath the stove. In the model I saw, there was a single horizontal shelf. So, if you want to add sliding baskets, shelves, plastic containers, et al, I don't see a whole lot of difference. How many of you are really cutting into the decraguard? Some may say that the molded cabinets might be easier to clean, we shall see.

As for the dinette side, now that's another issue but as Les mentioned, I think they're still tinkering with that.

I agree with James, time will tell. And yes, the boat I saw was definitely for sale at Lake Union SeaRay in Fife.

Peter
C-Dancer
 
No, they are selling the current design, but that does not mean it is the final design they will end up with. They have just made the change from decraguard to fiberglass. And I'm sure it is a learning process for them too, and as Les stated, they should be making some changes to the current design that alot of people here don't like. After all they are getting alot of feedback on it. :wink: As I said, my boat was the first with the flat molded floor in the cockpit. And Jeff even told me that they were going to do a few things differently on the ones that would follow. I have confidence that Cdory will make some changes to the interior, and will get it right in the long run.

Sark
 
The more I think about it, I think you guys are correct... The white laminate is much harder to clean that molded fiberglass....
I liked the interior of my 22' cruiser....but hated the interior of the 25' as I thought the cabinets looked shoddy...they somehow just never matched the quality of the boat... I think once the fiberglass is "teaked up" it will look much nicer than the old interior... maybe the factory should offer a teak trim option......or a "additional storage option"


Joel
SEA3PO
 
Joel-

No doubt adding teak trim to the fiberglass will be done to dress it up, it's a standard practice in the marine industry now.

Probably owners of the new C-Dorys will develop quite a competition to dress the new fiberglass interior with bolt-on teak accessories.

And the change may indeed result in some cottage-industry level folks making ready-made dress-up parts to order, as well as bolt-in storage organizers, etc.

There's quite a bit of generic stuff like this already available from marine suppliers.

Over on another thread, Iggy has pointed out that some of the resistance to the new fiberglass interior may well stem from the average boatowner's unfamiliarity with how to modify and work with fiberglass panels as opposed to plywood. It's a point well taken.

If the factory doesn't move in the direction to offer some customization of the interior with wood alternatives to the fiberglass, perhaps some aftermarket craftsman could offer custom interiors to those of us obsessed with wooden interiors.

All this give and take discussion itself is, I believe, making the whole concept of a fiberglass interior a little easier to swallow as we find alternatives that will work for those of us prefering the "old school" interior cabinetry system.

Whittlin' fiberglass in my dreams..

Joe.
 
The factory has made a buisness decision based on cost. That I can understand. Once the design and molds are perfected they will most likely end up with a servicable product.
What about those first time owners? What pains are they in store for to get that serviceable product? It is obvious that this is their plan I just think they could have come out with a better effert than they did. Fiberglass or Decaguard, the dinette design is awful. The cockpit and door they got right.
 
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