The good and the oh-so bad.

OK, I have the utmost respect for Les's opinion. He sees this issue from a broader perspective and has way more experience than I will ever have. I'm sure the factory will get it right, just not a big fan of the molded interior.
David, no need to apoligize.

Fred
 
So someone new comes to the site here to learn about the C-Dory and they see all this belly-aching

It isn’t belly-aching, Les, it’s stating our opinions. Quite frankly, I’m tired of seeing people being jumped on by some people if they (gasp!) dare say anything negative about the factory. We all have opinions and should not be criticized for sharing them. I’ve seen it happen rather frequently. Everyone has an opinion and we should not berate anyone who speaks their mind. We should, instead, encourage it.


If the wood interior is so great why did the very people that developed that interior choose a molded interior when they developed a new boat?

You answered your own question…to cut costs and appeal to a broader market. I can’t quite understand why they would want to appeal to a broader market when they have trouble meeting demand (as you said above) with the boat built as it is. Seems like an awful lot of potential buyers like the boat just fine as it is.

You’re right in that most of us already have a boat so it is a moot point…but will the 25 footer be next? Plenty of 22 owners have moved up to the 25. I’m guessing that maybe that is the concern of some current 22 owners.

I also can’t quite understand why the company feels they have to increase production. If the interest is there, and many people are vying for one of these boats, then wouldn’t that fact ensure a steady demand for new boats? Heck, I’m certainly not a businessman, I’m just thinking out loud. I suppose most every business wants to grow bigger.

We absolutely love our boat and have made some changes like most owners have. We have a very exciting project (at least we think it is exciting) planned for our interior that couldn’t be done as easily if it were fiberglass. We also love this site and all of the great info there is to share. Heck, it’s really a huge part of what attracted me to the C-Dory in the first place.

I still stand by my original opinion…I think the molded interior is a dumb idea. I think they look cheap.
 
I think it's easier for ppl highly used to a certain model and layout, to be critical of a new change. In fact, one of the cardinal signs that a person is likely to have a change of mind is that he/she is highly critical of the new version.

As for me, I was saddened by the extreme down talk on the new TomCats. I absolutely love mine, thanks, I acknowledge, in part to some previous criticism, the problem areas had been addressed. But rages just drag down my day. I love visiting this site for the fun and info, and understand nothing is perfect in this world, and that a reasonable discussion of differing opinions is healthy. But please put it in perspective and as pleasant as a "count to ten" before you type can be...

John
 
I could be wrong but if I recall most of the Tom Cat criticism had to do with real problems and many constructive solutions. The molded interior controversy has to do with manufacturing efficiencies and aesthetic opinions. With all considerable due respect, this forum is here for the members. The opinions expressed are in no way malicious. They are in some degree emotional because our attachment to the C-Dory is in some degree emotional. I think that's a very good thing. As far a I'm concerned, the more plastic the better. I have no interest in accessing the wiring and I have no plumbing to worry about. I like the look of lots of teak and lots changes and upgrades and I do admire that stuff of other people's boats, but not on mine thank you. Say what you think and feel, you earned that right when you bought your boat.
 
Well,

Guess it's my turn. No one on this site has ever said any individual isn't entitiled to an opinion and can't state it here. Only one rule -- "Be nice."

My opinion - the factory has every right to build their boats the way they want to. I love my old classic and don't like the new plastic one, but I'll get used to it.

There are a lot of folks on here with the business experience to criticize the factory, but if they want to expand their market, make a better boat, I suspect they will do a good job of it. Remember when they first started building cars, same old stuff!

Bottom line, customers either sign or walk. We'll see, eh?
I look forward to seeing the NEW 22 when it hits the SBS.

Dusty
 
I don't always agree with Les ( and when I don't I try to keep my mouth shut.) Now, when I've read everyones opinion about the molded interior, I do agree. I don't understand the criticism, since I've had three boats with molded interiors, and I loved them. I am not a big fan of the screwed together interior of the CD25, though C-Dory did a good job putting it together. I do think that the new molded interior will be stronger, cleaner and a better fit, IF it's done right. If it also keeps costs down, more power to them.
It is different, and we'll have to accept that, but I think it'll be an improvement, and possibly lighter.

Boris
 
I, for one have some difficulty with change...... :mrgreen: Several years ago, I read the book "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson. Now when I find myself confronted with change, I reflect back on this book.
 
Les, we have disagreed on small nuances of past discussions, as reasonable people always will, but for the first time I have to disagree with you fundamentally. It is the type of people who are attracted to C-Dory that make those same people so fiercely loyal. And as proven so many times on these pages, it is the enthusiasm and loyalty of those past customers that persuades first time C-Dory buyers to buy that particular brand in more cases than not. That is why C-Dory has (or used to have) a computer in their showroom tuned to this group of loyal and enthusiastic customers.

There are stamped out boats a lot fancier, faster, shinier, and cheaper than C-Dorys all over the place. If they wish to compete in that market, I do not begrudge them. However, if they wish to keep the pervasive personality of their past customers on the sales team, they have to keep the personality of the product they offer for sale. I am certain the factory cares about their past customers. I believe it unequivocally. But for them, or you or anyone to expect those past customers to root them on when doing something we do not care for sheds a lot of light on the depth of the caring, or rather the reason for the caring.

Despite what a very few individuals believe, C-Dory cannot buy the quality of advertising they get from the C-Brats. To keep it, they have to value our opinions, suffer our bellyaching, and seek our thoughtful advice. If it costs them a little more to build the boats we will enthusiastically promote, they should weigh that extra cost against the value of the advertising. If the value doesn't measure up, then so be it. But I suspect it does.

You are correct in saying it is unfair to judge something that isn't finished yet. And Oldgrowth Dave is correct in saying we should give the factory a chance before "trashing" them. But Dave is wrong in his perception that the few honest souls who have spoken are "trashing" anyone or anything. And you, Les, are misguided in hoping that those few souls and the many others about to speak up should speak anything short of what they feel.
 
I have to ask , was my post ranting or raving? was I not being reseanable? Was a cooler head needed? I think that i gave a good review of the tug and a honest review of the 22. I even stated in my first post that I understood what c-dory was trying to do, stream line prodution and cut cost. I even said that they are trying to go after a bigger market. I gave credit where credit was due with the new deck, which I would love to have in my dory, the bigger tanks, and the glass door.

The molded interoir is going to get done whether I like it or not . I just think that it can be done better then what I saw . When I see a boat on a lot for sale I have to think thats the final version for this year because for who ever buys it, it is. I do hope that the factory re-designs the interior after a molded version of the current models.

A lot of people here bought these boats because they are a niche boat and would love to keep it that way, but its not our company. I just hate to see c-dory became bayliner and they are headed in that direction. thats some think tolland never wanted from what I have read. If I owned the company I may be doing the same thing because thats what businesses are for- making money.
 
Agree with you Mike 100% -

Our site is a great plus to C-Dory and I'm sure they know it. And I'm also certain they don't want to lose the loyalty of those of us who have stuck with them through substantial growing pains.

My reaction to the new interior was exactly like Toms. Doesn't mean I'm going to hate C-Dory or trash them because I don't like it. I may like the finished product, just as I liked the Orca... time will tell.

Guess I'm just too danged old to badmouth something I haven't seen. And I can understand a dealer, who sells +/- a million bucks worth of C-Dory stuff year after year, getting a little itchy.

Happy New Year to all, (pray for the Seahawks)

Dusty - working on a generator.
 
starcrafttom":1ec7usuh said:
...was my post ranting or raving?
Click to expand...

No sir, Tom, it was not. As a matter of fact I was quite proud of you. It looked to me like you put a lot into it to make it read correctly. Shoot, even the spelling was very good (but that didn't last long!).

Sawdust":1ec7usuh said:
Remember when they first started building cars...?
Click to expand...

Nope, sorry, I don't. But my dad does. He used to tell the story of how he and his brothers would take the wheels off of the wagon or the manure spreader or something and put them on an old Model T so they could go to town on weekends. Of course, he also said they had to eat dirt. And liked it.
 
In the previous post from Les, I see two phrases that jump our as "red flags"

"broaden the appeal to a larger market"
"market a boat that works in many areas and appeals to a wide audience"

It worked for Bayliner! Bayliner Marine started out as a local Seattle area builder of fiberglass runabouts and became one of the largest recreational boat builders in the world, prior to being acquired by Brunswick.

I hope that C-Dory Marine doesn't "dumb down" the design design of their boats or cut corners on the construction to reach their goals. I think C-Dory is a great boat BECAUSE it doesn't appeal to a wide audience!

Best Regards,
Leo
 
Tyboo Wrote:
And you, Les, are misguided in hoping that those few souls and the many others about to speak up should speak anything short of what they feel.
Click to expand...

:idea This Voice of Reason Is Much Clearer :idea
 
Leo Smith":hbk44yqb said:
<stuff clipped>I think C-Dory is a great boat BECAUSE it doesn't appeal to a wide audience!

Best Regards,
Leo
Click to expand...

Try to sell that concept to a business partner, investor or company owner.....

While I agree with some that there is some appeal to being able to customize one's own boat, I also think that if a design is done well, one won't want/need to "customize" much. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hate the white (now partly grey) Decragaurd. It's a PITA to keep clean and it doesn't look that nice. There's lots of room for improvement and a nicely done, molded interior might be an improvement for many who would rather use their boat than customize it....
 

Les' line of reasoning, though well presented (as usual) and seemingly convincing at first, is one that supports the factory and dealerships at almost every turn, and in the long run turns a blind eye to the niche market and owner loyalty that characterizes the C-Dory experience.

No doubt the factory has a right to modify the boats and tailor them to any target market they choose, but if the changes are indeed intended to greatly enlarge the market share of these boats in difference to the way they have been developed and used over the past quarter century, the loyalty of the present boat owners toward the factory may indeed begin to wane and wander.

Back a few hundred posts or so, someone suggested that the nature of the trend of these many different changes may well be to take the C-Dory boat group from a selective niche market towards appealing instead to a much wider group, and in so doing, to make the factory attractive to a buyout by a large conglomerate recreational manufacturer such as Brunswick. I personally hope that this never occurs, but we'll just have to wait and see.

In the mean time, I think I or the rest of us should probably not try to be too suspicous or paranoid about these developments, as such speculation often takes us down paths much further than ever develop, and we do even at times look a bit like we have the "overactive imagination" attributed to the younger set. (But then again, we'd at least have some of those younger attributes!)

Thanks for all your thoughts!

Joe.


 
416rigby wrote:
…but will the 25 footer be next? Plenty of 22 owners have moved up to the 25. I’m guessing that maybe that is the concern of some current 22 owners.
Click to expand...

Yes, the 25 is next. We saw one in production last week at the factory. (Don has to feel invisible by now.)

From a female perspective, my concerns simply had to do with the amount of storage with the new interior. It appeared that the openings in the molded cabinets were much smaller than what we have in our boat and the storage underfoot of the forward facing seats were considerably smaller. It would be very difficult to install a nice pull-out storage system like Anna Leigh and Daydream have installed under the sink and stove, which is what we are planning on installing.

One of the things I love, as someone stated above, is that the boats are like a blank canvas on which we each make our own masterpiece. I'm not convinced that will be as easy with the molded interiors, however, I'm not convinced it's impossible either. Granted, we have not done nearly as much as many of you have, but we do have plans for ways to make the boat more useful to us.

That being said, I certainly understand the factory wanting to improve their manufacturing techniques. Maybe what they should have done is to invite a few owners in to see the proposed changes so they could get feedback before it got to this point. That could have saved them the pain of these kinds of posts, let the owners know that our feedback is important and given them a chance to address any concerns before they are out on the market. It also would have given them some champions ahead of the news.

If you think about it, there are as many opinions as there are owners on this site. How does the factory know which ones to pay attention to? How do they know what issues are really non-issues and which ones should be fixed? I suspect they do their best to respond to those things that are truly troublesome and at some point, they have to make the decision that is best for their business, despite what we might think.

I do agree with Mike, though, that the factory has a unique opportunity to vet their decisions with a very eager and active user group. That they didn’t take the opportunity is unfortunate, however, I believe everyone here is rooting for the success of this company!

Dee
 
My two cents:

I have been a member of this community for a while now and I respect everyone's opinon, whether I agree or not. You all have been a source of a great wealth of knowledge, especially to a newbee like myself.

I joined this group because of the variety of experiences and so I could participate in a venue that solicits opinions and comments. I joined because of our common use of and interest in our C-Dorys. As end users, we ALL have something to contribute that will make use of our boats and our boating experience more enjoyable and much safer. To this end, this forum has been a great success, at least to me.

I also believe that this forum has been of a great assistance to the CDory company. First and foremost, it is a source of new ideas that can be (and have) been implemented into the design of the boats themselves. I am not going to list them, but you all know. Second, it is a great source of free advertising for CDory, because of the frank and honest nature of the group; we point out the good and the bad and the not so bad. CDory has responded and to us, has crafted a better boat. This forum is also a great source for inquiring minds that want to know more about a CDory for a future purchase. Allbeit, reading our biased opinions. Through this mutal relationship, this Group, CDory and their Dealers have a special relationship that may not exist in other places. This is all good. (I know CDory has helped me personally in the many times that I have asked).

Now CDory has made a decision to redesign their boat for whatever reason; ease of assembly, cost cutting, or really trying to create a better boat-maybe all of these things. But we as a group are what WE are, a forum of opinions, not an extension of the CDory Company. We are here to opine. I should not be worried if I may offend a future CDory purchaser and scare off a potential customer. My interest is my boat. Sure I care about the future of CDory; they are the ones enforcing the warranty on my boat. I would love for them to stay in business and be prosperous. But I do not sit on their board of directors nor do I make decisions for them. If they want my opinion, they can ask. If they make a change that I don't like, I'll say so.

Since I have not seen the new CDory 22 with the new interior, I do not feel right to comment on it. Thanks to those of you who have seen it and for voicing your opinion. When I see it, I will join in the discussion.

I think the car comment of an earlier post really hits home. I look, at for instance, the Corvette. Some people love the eary Vette -59-71. It doesn't look anything like the new Vette. If there is a Corvette group, I am sure as new model years came out, owners voiced their opinions, good and bad. Chevy is still building Corvettes and they are some of the best ever produced, ever. But you may not like them. So don't buy one. But I will let you know what I think of them. And I am not going to stifle my opinion in loyalty to Chevy. My only loyality is to give an honest opinion, not with the intent to hurt or destroy, but to learn and to build trust.

I am EXTREMELY happy with my 2004 CDory. Believe it or not, it is my first boat. It and this group have become somewhat of a hobbie that I enjoy very much, even if my wife doesn't understand. (I could be on other web sites of which she doesn't approve.)

Let's keep looking and chatting, designing and playing, using and crusing.

Thank you, and God Bless America.

John
Swee Pea
 
Back
Top