Singles versus Twins

Gary-

If you put twin 90's or 115's on Armstrong brackets and added the T8 on a center O/B bracket you'd be set to go with the whole thing centered up. Use one of those electric or hydraulic brackets or get the T8 with that optional lift feature, add cockpit controls, and you'd have the ideal set up, but at a cost of probably close to $30k (!) Still, it would be sweeeeeet!!! Joe.
 
Well if I were going to spend 30k on a repower I would go with a Volvo Diesel and their new composite outdrive I/O. Then I would install the Hi-Thrust 15hp on a full swim platform. I would also put in a bow thruster just because I think they are cool!

Regardless my plans are to put in a new V6 to hook up to the existing Volvo 280 I/O and a 15hp Kicker. I don't think that a T8 will be adequate for my boat. And yes it will have power tilt and electric start on the kicker! And I will probably put in remote controls for it alongside the rear controls for the main engine. The kicker will also be controlled by the hydraulic steering unless I can find a way to get a TR-1 in which that will be the sole steering for the kicker.
 
TyBoo":elers6ft said:
Robert -

That is the one thing that always comes out of this discussion. Get what makes you happiest.

Years ago, there was a guy who used to frequent this place. Les was his name. After his often lengthy and deep consideration of the single vs. twins question, he would every time end up telling his customers that they were buying a pleasure boat, and to therefore make their choice based solely upon whatever pleased them most. I think that's good advice, indeed.

There is no one absolute correct answer to the question. Both sides have great points and not so great points, and the key is to determine which of the great points makes the most sense to you. Les also says that some people want twins because they are "sexy". That, all by itself, is a valid reason for getting them.
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Very funny wise guy...I've got my spies you know! :smileo

I did write a lot on the subject and I tried to cover it from just about every aspect because I see it from the side of the dealer and from the standpoint of the user (I'm both!).

So here is the final sceintifically processed answer you've all been seeking...

There ain't no right answer (and as an aside there's no wrong one either).

Picking engines is as bad as picking a spouse...you just never know what you've got until you live with them awhile.

I can't tell you why I like to grab a couple of throttle handles and shove them forward or tweak them "just so" to make the engines sing in harmony. I can't tell you why I enjoy the little special moves I can make with the boat with two levers instead of just one ('cause so far I've never not been able to get a single stick boat in the same location). I can't make any logical argument for it that I can't counter with an equally logical answer from the other side.

I think from a purely logical and mechanical standpoint that a single is superior...consumes less dash space for gauges, uses less space for the controller, doens't require "fiddling" with the levers to synch up the engines), is easier to operate from the standpoint of just moving a single lever, etc, etc.

I'm painting with a broad brush here but most folks make the decision for twins from a psychological or emotional base and not from pure mechanics. And that's as it should be...we're not buying a "necessity" here, we're buying a recreational vessel and something that speaks to our Walter Mitty side.

Mike's right though...unless you have a very specific mission profile my question is always "what's going to make you smile when you walk down the dock and see your boat sitting there?". And, by golly, if that's twin engines then you should have them (same is true if you doen't care too much but your partner's smile is at stake).

The last CD22 we ran had a single on it and no kicker...as far as I'm concerned that's the "smartest" decision based purely on cost, weight and complexity. But that's not a comfortable solution for most folks and I understand that. So the reality is that almost everyone is going to end up with two engines on the transom. For some folks the ultimate kicker engine is the one that's the same size as the main; for others they can deal with a smaller 'get home' engine or want one specifically for fishing.

And I'll throw out one more tidbit...it somewhat depends on where you're boating (and a lot depends on your personality (that it to say....comfort level)). The farther afield you stray the more self-reliant you need to become. Getting help when help is just a few miles away is a lot different then getting help from 200 miles away. While a one of a pair of engines isn't going to plane the boat (normally) it's sure going to push it a heck of a lot faster than a 'kicker' motor. Especially considering the way a C-Dory hull 'comes up'; it doesn't have to climb up over a horendous bow wave so one of a pair of engines is quite capable of pushing the boat a lot faster than hull speed. [Of course, if you hit a log with eninges only 24" apart or hit a rock you're probably going to take out both props anyway...but that's why there's a dinghy motor onboard too!]

So in the end there is no answer based on scientific reasoning...only one based on personal beliefs, comfort level and aesthetic interpretation.

You'll find a lot of arguments both ways...don't buy into any of them...they're all based on the paragraph above. As I said before there isn't an arguement that can be made for single, single/kicker or twins that can't intelligently be refuted with another viewpoint. There are plenty of personal opinions and personal experiences that make all the difference in the world for a lot of folks but they remain just that...opinions (mine included!). The only time you "need to" or "have to" go to twins (multiple engines) is when you can't develop sufficient horsepower with a single engine of the hull style dictates the use of twins (as in catamarans). Which means for any other circumstance you're choosing twins to satisfy something other than the boat's requirements.
 
That's it - I've had enough of this logical and reasoned line of thinking.

You single/twin proponents are sooooo misguided. Were I doing it again, I'd get triple 30's. :moon
 
Only negative I've found with my twin Suzukis is that I occassionaly hit the trim control on the binacle shift control with my hip. The control itself is neat, with a switch that allows controling the trim of both motors with one button, but the placement of that one button on the shift lever is very close to my hip. Anybody found a remedy for that?

Mike - Sealife
 
Hi LES, just finished reading your point of view about twins versus single, or single with kicker. The complexity of installing Twins versus Single is quit more involved I agree with you. Customers don't have to crawl under or put the hole for gauges on the wrong locations! All the customer has to do is decide what he wants then write the checks . I really enjoyed your comments on the subject , but when I got to the last paragrah I personally thought that it was wrong. You probably sold many boats and installed many outboards but when it comes to safety on the water one should make his own decisions ( costumer) to what kind of equipment or engine or engines . Like I said, in some of my postings , if I was a weekend warrior , no fishing , my C-Dory would have a 75 to 90 HP and no kicker . But I am a hardcore fishing type of guy, and I do have twins on my Boat and if the transom was big enough I would install a kicker too!... Would not want to get caught half way between Echo Bay and Telegrah Cove In the fog or rough sea with small kicker. My 2 cents
 
hummmm, what would be better, a CC with twins or a CD with a single and kicker?

I know I've always fantasized about twins
 
Had to weigh in on this one. I run a single 90 hp Suzuki with a 9.9 kicker for many of the reasons previously stated. There is so much flotsom in the water up here that it is not inconceivable or even rare to hit a log/branch/whatever and damage the prop or lower unit. With twins you have a good chance of taking them both out; with a kicker thats retracted while running, at least I can make it to safe harbor. I also like the simplicity and maintenance aspects of a single since I do most of my own maintenance.

The new 4 strokes are also so reliable that they are almost like todays cars..they may act up once in a while but rarely just break down if properly maintained. Mine are most sensitive to water in the fuel (a big problem here) but that is easy to fix.

As for the visceral joy of duel throttles and synching the engines, I do understand that!
 
Plain old common-horse-sense will reveal: lugging an engine (regardless of what type it is) is very damaging.

A little scenario for you to ponder, that you don't hear coming from the "experts":

...Say; you have had some very minor-trouble (such as bad fuel, or just a wire or something come off) that causes you to "limp home" on your other twin. Your doing so on a 'twin' will be; lugged something terrible---should you try 'limp home' too quickly, which is probably the main theory behind getting twins.
Kickers have taken sailboats all over the word in all kinds of conditions, and now there so refined and developed (high thrust).

If your going "twins" I would suggest getting some 'limp-home' props, (pitched way-down!!) just in case you have to go a long distance :idea It will not be an issue of "lugging" and prematurely wearing out your other main-engine. :moon
 
The ancient one couldn't stand it!

The 22 CD (and I suspect the 25 CD) doesn't need twins to go offshore - just the skipper or copilot want them. And that's not bad -- just personal preference.

Maneuvering in tight spaces is easier with twins, but I've never found a situation with the vectored thrust outboard where I couldn't maneuver safely.

My 22 with 90 2-stroke is my favorite setup because I always run light. Greg has a heavy 4-stroke and kicker plus much gas aft -- and used his the way a 22 should be used. We both have balanced boats. IMO the 22 needs more lift aft if running a heavy 4-stroke outboard and full fuel unless you have adequate weight forward to compensate.

We regularly run from Sooke to Bamfield (100+NM) in open ocean and fish miles off Ucluelet with a single. Sometimes a kicker aboard, and often not. My experience with twins has been spotty. Have lost both outboards because of bad fuel, and took out two lower units on a log. I prefer a kicker out of the water with a can of fresh and clean fuel separate from the main tank. Just my opinion. El and Bill love their twins -- and that's cool. The only single I've lost over the years, and my commercial fishing boats were all single, is from outdrive failure :( :amgry . The 4-strokes and newer 2-strokes are reliable.

Bottom line - whatever the skipper wants. The 22 CD doesn't NEED twins.

Dusty
 
Great to see you online again Dusty! :)

The only single I've lost over the years, and my commercial fishing boats were all single, is from outdrive failure
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And that is one of the reasons I love my jet pump so much! Nothing down in the water to rip off from those blasted submerged logs. Unfortunately the pump won't work on my boat from what the experts at Hamilton say. :(

So, I'll be going with the Volvo 280 I/O and a V6 that when I get done rebuilding it should last another 1000 hours or two.
 
I also had many many boats in my life time, and I hope to have a few more I am not trying to sell twins on any of your boats, if the shoe fit wear it . So far with what I am seeing my next boat will have twins too. Personally I am not having lagging problems when I am using only one engine, I hold 10 to 12 kts at about 3100 rpm . Maybe Yamaha 2005 , 4 cyl. EfI, works better than other I don't know. But one thing I do know it works for me, and that is using the same props. For the past 40 years I have held a class 1 drivers licence with no restriction and I do know what lagging an engine sounds like. I will be going shrimping tomorrow , I will spend some time playing with one engine again and will let you know how it went. With no pun entended I would like to know how many of you discussing the subject of twins versus single, have had lots of experience in the past with twins. For me it is a first. But when I hear 3000hrs on the same Honda twins, and I understand that El and Bill bought two new Honda must say something?.... Gary SEARAM
 
Gary,

Years of experience with twins -- and several years with 6 and 8 (B47 and B52) -- and I'm not disputing your judgment call on using twins. I really like twins too but prefer a single and maybe kicker for my own use. Skipper's choice.

I've never had twin outboards that one of them would take my loaded boat from dead-in-the-water (DIW) to full plane and maintain a plane at 500 rpm under max... if you can't, then you are exceeding BMEP... and RF is right -- I'd have a prop aboard that would allow the single to do that. This old white-haired guy doesn't like to change props underway in any kind of a nail-biter sea. My 85-year old fear factor increases daily :lol:

Fished your area for years, and there's no better place IMO!!!

Dusty
 
Thank you Dusty , I was suppose to go shrimping today but had to cancel. Somebody that ask me to give them a ride 2 weeks ago , are buying a new C-Dory 22' cruiser , so he wanted to come and have a look at the boat and trailer again before he goes back to the dealer. He is very happy about the decision . I believe he is going to put a 90HP on it ,he will be using it mainly for cruising. I did mention to him that he really does not need a kicker in is case, but told him he had to decide himself. And Dusty I still don't understand why I am capable of getting to good cruising speed with only one engine, when everybody else seems to have problems with lagging the engine? Your right about that fishing hole sure is pretty up there!... Hope to see you up there some day. Gary SEARAM
 
Gary, what props are you using? I can't get my 45's to bring Captain's Choice up to a plane on one engine.

Charlie

P.S. Dusty, what is it that gets you to come out of your hole?? :lol:
 
Gary-

"Personally I am not having lagging problems when I am using only one engine, I hold 10 to 12 kts at about 3100 rpm."

You must have Kryptonite in those engines! If you looks at the performance tables on the C-Dory website for the 22, you're getting approximately the same performance out of one engine that they get out of twin 40's or a single 75! Here's their numbers (which are generally optimistic, too!)

http://www.c-dory.com/22%20performance.htm

(P.S. I get 14 mph at 3600 with my 2005 Yammi 90 EFI. and I'd guess that at 3100 it would drop to about 11-12.)

Joe.
 
Charlie, I am presently using Yamaha props 10 5/8 x 12 they give me about 5700 to 5800 maximum HP. I tried 4 sets before I could it those #. I do not have a spare set of props that I own at the moment, but I am waiting for Ring Prop, the will have my size by the end of the month. If I don't like the Ring Prop , I will go with the 4 blades ajustable ProPulse. Thank you Joe , for a moment I taught that I was the only one being able too achieve those # . Here are the specs. for the Yamaha 2005 , 4-cyl. , displacement ( 60.8 ci ) ,bore ( 2.48 x 2.95 in ) ,compression 9.5: 1 ,alternator 17 amps , gear ratio ( 1.85 ) ,weight ( 237 lb ) .
 
Gary- Actually, I was trying to say that you seem to be getting about the same performance out of one of your twins as I get out of my 90! You must have the prop selection dialed in right on the $$$! Joe.
 
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