Sea Lions

Roger,

You obviously have more training in this area than I do. However I still feel very strongly that Sea Lion populations are too high in the Columbia river area. This is causing far more endangered fish to be harvested than I would like to see. The biggest problem here is that the Sea Lions of that area have learned how easy it is to work the dams and "hog lines". I feel the ONLY way to keep this from completely wiping out the run of fish is to remove SOME sea lions. They are simply too smart to just relocate (they already proved that with Hershel). In addition to that we need to curtail commercial and sport harvest of these fish for this year at least.

Lets look at these numbers. There were reportedly 5,000 Sea Lions and Harber Seals from Bonneville Dam to the mouth of the Columbia as far back as the beginning of March or so. Now if each of them ate 1 Salmon a day for March and April that would be 30,000 fish. However most of them will eat 4 fish a day. That bumps the number up to about 120,000 fish for that 2 month period. Since the run was only supposed to be about 150,000 and the Commercial and Sport anglers have already pulled about 30,000 fish out of the system. What is left of the run?

As you stated the Seals need to eat to survive. But if they completely wipe out the run there won't be anything left to renew the run. I'm seriously concerned that we have gotten to that point with the Columbia river spingers. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I'm off by much. And you are also right in that it would be better for the Seals to hit a balance in numbers to self regulate. Unfortunately that balance may just cause a drastic problem for the dwindling Salmon stocks.

Lets think on this too. There are basically only a few predators of Sea Lions. Sharks, Transient Orcas, and Man. The typical Pugest Sound Orca doesn't eat Seals or Sea Lions. The Sharks are actually pretty few and far between as well since we seem to have wiped them out to near extinction as well. And since the Transient Orcas are also in fairly small numbers that leaves us with the task of striking a balance that the food fish can sustain rather than let "nature" take its course.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about this as we wouldn't have eat salmon so we wouldn't continue to over harvest them. Thus we wouldn't worry about the Seals eating more than the fish population could sustain as the balance would be there to keep things in check. Unfortunately Man has screwed up the balance. They have wiped out the upper predators leaving the middle predators with no checks on the populations. Then we went and said that we were not going to kill them so we'll let their population grow to the point where they eat their preferred food to near extinction. When that has been accomplished it will finally dawn on people that we should have taken care of the problem long ago but were too shortsighted to realize the problem.
 
starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
I don’t think that any one is talking about the wholesale killing of the entire population of sea lions. Just the removal of problem seal lions that have made it a habit of destroying the endangered runs at their most vulnerable time, entering the hatcheries and fish ladders at dams. To say that it is natural for seals to eat fish by trapping them in fish ladders is just wrong.

No argument there. I also think that there may be other approaches but in general, removing the problem seals and sea lions from the fish ladder entrances is a good idea. Previous data shows that a very small number of specific animals that learn to work the ladders can consume big numbers.


starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
Maybe the seal lion population should have been kept in check and at a lower level until their food base has recovered.
In general, the fish returns in the early 2000's are better than they were in the 1980's. Not at every run, but many runs are starting to recover. This is in spite of increasing numbers of seals and sea lions. Tighter commercial regulations, some loss of fishing fleet (due to economics) and improved ocean survival rates have all contributed to this. I'd personally rather focus on restricting commercial catches or buying out the indian share as I think that will be a more effective management strategy.

starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
To put the seal before the cart or salmon is just miss management. This was the same mistake that was made by forest managers. They removed the fire protection before removing the fuel that causes damaging fires. The fuel should have been removed first, and then the forest can take care of its self. If the sea lion population is left unchecked before the food base can be provided we will see a crash of both species.
I'm not seeing the analogy here with the fire management....

starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
Like I said before, doing nothing is not management.
I would argue that a lot is being done and that in fact fishing is better today than it was in the early 1990's. I would also agree that more could be done but I would start with 1) restricting commerical fishing, 2)trying to buy out the indian harvest 3)improving spawning habitat, 4)removing dams that can be removed and improving fish ladders and smolt passage 5) restricting access of sea lions to ladder entries (or removing or killing a limited number of animals that work these entries) 6) restricting sport fishing or changing sport fishing habits (maybe hog lines are not the best or maybe we should only fish above the dams so that sea lions don't get the easy access to fish on the line) and then (and only then) would I look at thinning the overall number seal and sea lions.

starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
I wonder why the harbor seal population has leveled off while the bigger more aggressive competitor has grown???
It is likely that the sea lion growth rate is tapering off too - I just haven't found the data yet. The harbor seals seem to be a better studied population. Both populations were growing at a similar rate from 1970 on in what data I could find.

starcrafttom":l8qnl9vv said:
oh come to a gathering so we can drink and argue. it drives my wife crazy.

p.s. I am also for the removel of nets in the rivers for the same reason. troll only fisheries are the way to go along with fish farms.

Drinking is always better than arguing and I find it best to argue first and drink second - arguments make more sense that way....

Best to all,
Roger on the SeaDNA
 
Some of the branded sea lions that have been spotted at B Dam in recent years are home ported in southern California. To control them lethally, it might take a nuke.

I think the reason the critters are worse this year may have something to do with that guy they elected governator down there.

We probably ought to cut the DFW guys a little slack on their efforts. They are trying to come up with ways that private folks can use, as well. Even if it were legal or ethical to blast the sea lions, I don't think I would want to be on the river if all the Thunderjet and Bayliner skippers were packing elephant guns.
 
gljjr":2vpvffd5 said:
Roger,

You obviously have more training in this area than I do. However I still feel very strongly that Sea Lion populations are too high in the Columbia river area. This is causing far more endangered fish to be harvested than I would like to see. The biggest problem here is that the Sea Lions of that area have learned how easy it is to work the dams and "hog lines". I feel the ONLY way to keep this from completely wiping out the run of fish is to remove SOME sea lions. They are simply too smart to just relocate (they already proved that with Hershel). In addition to that we need to curtail commercial and sport harvest of these fish for this year at least.

Lets look at these numbers. There were reportedly 5,000 Sea Lions and Harber Seals from Bonneville Dam to the mouth of the Columbia as far back as the beginning of March or so. Now if each of them ate 1 Salmon a day for March and April that would be 30,000 fish. However most of them will eat 4 fish a day. That bumps the number up to about 120,000 fish for that 2 month period. Since the run was only supposed to be about 150,000 and the Commercial and Sport anglers have already pulled about 30,000 fish out of the system. What is left of the run?

As you stated the Seals need to eat to survive. But if they completely wipe out the run there won't be anything left to renew the run. I'm seriously concerned that we have gotten to that point with the Columbia river spingers. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I'm off by much. {remainder deleted in quote}

Estimates of returns up river are based on a combination of previous returns and sampling in the ocean. The previous return data INCLUDES previous predation by seals and sea lions so the math you are doing is not quite right. That is you can only subtract the INCREASE in predation this year over recent previous years to get a sensible estimate of the impact on the run. I haven't seen that estimate of 5000 seals and sea lions in the river and at it's mouth before so I would like to know where that number came from to follow it up. Regardless though, the relevant number is how many more than last year? I think it is far too simplistic to attribute the decrease in this year's run to seal and seal lion population increases since the data I have been able to find indicates population growth rates of between 3 and 7% per year (on average - with "compound interest that translates into the 3-fold increase since the 70's).

Let's not forget that this year's rain and snow fall is WAY down relative to any recent year and that has a lot to do with the return. That is, the return is pushed back farther in time when not enough outflow has happened to draw the salmon in. I have been following the Bonneville fish counts VERY closely for the past many months. As of yesterday (Sun. May 8th), more than 51,000 fish have gone past the Bonneville dam - this is about 44% of the 10 year average for the same point in time. I have also plotted the return numbers to date for this year and the return numbers for the 10 year average and it would appear from the shapes of the curves, that this year's run is shifted about 20-23 days (late) relative to the historical average. If that interpretation of the data is correct, then one would expect to see the total run to exceed 100,000 fish over Bonneville dam by the end of June. However, estimates like this are difficult to make since this year's run is by an "outlier" relative to others and there isn't much to base the estimates on. In any event, you might infer from the above that the returns this year are not near as bad as the talk in March and April would indicate and might in fact be not too bad at all.

On a separate note, the peak of the 10 year average return is about April 19th. Hence, we might consider moving the C-Brat Cathlamet gathering back a bit for future years....

Roger on the SeaDNA
 
Roger,

Unfortunately I can't remember where I read it. But I have seen it more than once. I think I found it in a newspaper article on the low returns of fish for the Columbia this year.

I've also been told that the WDFW doesn't adjust their run predictions for the increased sea lion population. So their models seem to be very outdated to me. But since I don't have good data it is hard to figure this stuff out.
 
Gary,

Since the year-to-year increases in seal and sea lion populations are of order a few percent, not building that into the model probably doesn't affect the run predictions appreciably. There's enough error in the predictions from things we don't know or can't know (like weather) that the minor corrections to the prediction formulae probably wouldn't make a significant improvement the run predictions.

All,

Just for the hell of it, I posted a graph of the run counts for this year and the average of the past 10 years. I put it as the last photo in the SeaDNA album. The last couple of days of the run count have been low but a few days ago was a doozy (6000+ fish in one day!). I looking at the fish cam at Bonneville dam (http://www.nwp.usace.army.mil/op/b/fish ... ?rn=04-116) in another browser window and based on what I see right now, today's count will probably be pretty low too. Let keep our fingers crossed for better days in the coming weeks.... Our 2009 fishing season will require it....

Roger on the SeaDNA
 
Nice graph! I hear ya on the continued returns. And I really hope they don't open it back up for some reason. It just wouldn't make sense to me to do that.
 
dogon dory":seby8wbi said:
Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony of this whole discussion? We go on and on about nature, protecting the environment, what the natives did or didn't do 200 years ago, etc.

The reality of the whole situation is that we are talking about legally protected sea lions that have learned to utilize a man made damn to prey on hatchery raised salmon while the natives are too busy running their casino to give a crap. What does nature have to do with it ?

Science shows us that historically species come and go. Something alters the environment or another species becomes dominant etc. And life goes on. It is only in current times due to our sense of values that we have decided that the "balance of nature" should remain static. It is our sense of values that say that it is unnacceptable for species to become extinct. We act as if each and every species if lost will irrevocably alter the balance of the universe and all will be lost. {text clipped...}

And like someone mentioned earlier in this thread, mankind is part of nature.
No offense taken - the topic started with sea lions but since you expanded it a bit to all species... <sorry>....
The big concern should not be individual species but the rapid increase in the rate of extinctions directly due to mankind's influence. In the long run, the fact that we are part of nature is precisely the concern. We appear to be living in the middle of another mass extinction of a scale that hasn't been seen on earth for about 65 Myrs. Maybe humans will someday get added to the list (although I don't know who would make the entry.... :) )
 
I think Mike nailed it...these CA sea lions where never a problem until Bill purchased property and started talking about moving to the NW....we need a big fence to stop northern migration brough on by the Govenator :)
 
Nope -- I think Dogon Dan got it right -- live it up now, because when the greens finally de-populate the west with all their plans of private property controls under the guise of saving fairy shrimp, beach rats, arryo toad frogs, head lice and the like for the utopian Wildlands Project, you guys won't be fishing there anyway! Come to think of it -- I'll be leaving Florida too! Oh well -- they have (look closely) cut out an environmental utopia at San Francisco we can all live at (best learn to color co-ordinate your clothes though and do be parade-friendly).

4280e5ee498e0ca2.jpg
 
no, nope, nada...it's definitely Da Nag's fault...we never had this problem until Bill purchased property up here...coincidence??? I think not

side note- The sea lions usually come up to feast on the smelt and stay for the salmon...smelt run was all but non existant this year, that made for some real hungry sturgeon munching sea lions....everything is tied together
 
This guy doesn't want to miss the fun.

sealionfar.jpg

sealionclose.jpg
 
If you folks from Oregon and Washington would simply get with it and allow the Metropolitan Water District to build a 200 foot diameter tube from the Bonneville Dam to Los Angeles, you could just put the Sea Lions in the tube and ship 'em home directly, no hassles! Whadda 'ya think? Joe.
 
Why do you need 200ft? Are there sea lions that big?? :shock:

Hopefully a 3 ft diameter tube would be big enough :lol:

I'd love to see them pop out at the other end!!

Charlie
 
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