Purchasing a CD 22 Cruiser

M

MikeWhelpley

New member
Greetings
My name is Mike Whelpley and I live in Terrace BC about 95 miles from the port of Prince Rupert. I am in the process of purchasing CD 22 Cruiser. One of my reasons for choosing a C-Dory was this web site and all you C-Dory owners and the wealth of information you share. I presently own a 1984 Zodiac Mk2 GR with a 35 hp Evinrude w/ Jet and prop drives. I also have custom 19 ft Aluminum Jet boat, center console,AQ 145 Vovlo Penta with a Hamilton Jet. I designed and had it fabricated in Prince Rupert in 1987. It has almost 6000 hrs. and we just had a birthday party for it celebrating 20 years. As you can guess I am a water rat and boat until things ice up. I am a fisheries consultant and instruct my own River Boat course, and do training for BC Parks and Fish and Wildlife. I have lots of Questions but will pose them one at a time for the sake of brevity. My plans are for twin Honda 50's 4 Strokes, an Anchor system with a windlass. Electric fridge, a pot puller,Wallas stove and a electronics package. What is the best set up for batteries for this boat. I plan to carry a small generator for charging and maybe a solar panel.My trips may be long in duration. There are two boats (new) in BC I am looking at but if anyone has a late model CD 22 Cruiser in this configuration I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks for the help.
Mike Whelpley

All Boats are female. If you don't look after them, they won't look after you!
 
Welcome aboard,

Normally I would say that two group 27 batteries would be fine for a CD 22. But in this case, I would say three group 31 or 34 AGM batteries--maybe four. The reason is that you will have two engines, and it is not a good idea to cross charge a battery bank from two outboard alternators. you also have a heavy load--mostly the refigeration, but the pot puller and windlass are heavy draws for short peroids. Normally the electronics are not high current draw. I would wire one battery as a starting battery for each engine, and a second battery with a VSR to allow charging when you are running the engine. You can use a switch to combine the two "house" batteries for long term refigeration running.

I would also put in a good sized charger--probably 30 to 40 amps. The AGM s can take a rapid charge, they will take a lot of abuse, you can put one or two inside of the boat, if you want, for balance.

But looking at the 50 hp Hondas, they only charge at 10 amps. The Suzuki 50 charges at 18 amps and the Yahama at 17 amps. Not sure if this is important to you or not--and there may be some other good reason to go with Honda. On the other hand Evinrude 50 hp
E-tec shows a charging rate of 75 amps.(but other sites say that the "available charging power is 25 amps?). Either way, the Etec seems to win on battery charging.

I might consider an older boat for several reasons, including the wood interior vs the glass interior, plus perhaps better construction in the older boats. (of course you have to weigh this against some of the changes in the newer boats.)
 
I have a 22' cruiser with twin Honda 40's. I have three AGM group 27 batteries, one per motor as starting batteries and one house battery. That setup has proven completely adequate including time running the Webasto furnace overnight. The house battery and switches, etc. are in the starboard lazarette. Engine batteries are in the port Lazarette. I am now adding a windlass to be connected to the house battery and do not anticipate any need for another battery. However you have such a heavy projected load I tend to agree with Thataway's comment about bigger and maybe more batteries. That brings up the question of weight and weight distribution. You may want to give some careful thought about placement of your batteries especially with the weight of the potpuller near the stern. You said you might have a generator and solar panels for charging in which case I think three batteries similar to mine would be adequate but I suspect you'd have to make fairly regular use of the generator to keep things topped off. I was a little surprised to see a fridge in your plan. Many 22 cruiser owners, me included, have opted for the "icechest in the cockpit" routine in order to preserve the storage space under the port front seat and to allow for that seat to be reversed to face forward. You did not say if your cruises would be primarily singlehanding, if so then the above comments about the fridge and storage may be irrelevant.

In any case, welcome to the Brats and show us pictures of your boat when you get it set up. And, I know its a long way, but there will be a C-Brat get together mid-May at Friday Harbor in the San Juans and you are cordially invited. Thats a great way to meet other people, see their boats and get ideas for your own. I think there will be at least two other Canadians there.
 
MikeWhelpley":1l3hbxv3 said:
I am a fisheries consultant and instruct my own River Boat course, and do training for BC Parks and Fish and Wildlife.
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard! Your comment about the river boat course intrigued me. Can you point me to a web page that will give me more info?

Thanks!
 
Greetings I wouldn't lock myself into Honda's. They are very good engines and were one of the first four strokes and are very popular. Something to consider is the Honda 50's are still carberated and don't have flushing ports. The Suzuki's, Mercury's and Yamaha's all make very good four strokes and are fuel injected plus come with flushing ports. I'm no expert but I think you are less likely to have fuel related problems with the high operating pressures of the fuel injected systems.
 
OTOH, there are some advantages to carb models and the reason I went that way. The carb systems are far simpler, have fewer points of failure, and BTW -- you can pull start one in a pinch, can't do that with a fuel injected engine. Same reason I chose a carb Harley, you can push start it in a pinch (on a hill hopefully) but not with the FI model. Something to consider when you're way out there surrounded by water!
 
I pull start my EFI 50 HP Mercury all the time when I run the batteries down with the trolling motor. My Harley is also EFI but I've never had to push it it always starts. I had a carbed Honda 50 and if it sat up very long 30 days or so it was hard to start and ran very rough at idle. For me the EFI's are simpler less moving parts. I did have a problem with the high pressure fuel pump on the Mercury after sitting up for about three months. I took it apart and sprayed it with Mercury brand carb cleaner and it's worked every since. I wish I could get a FI weed eater can't ever get that sucker to start.
 
That's why I ride a BMW.... I am tired of all the Harley parts on the road.....plus when riding a Harley you are obligated to stop at every beer bar you pass...and wear a T-shirt with some sort of Duke it Out saying....

I like Honda's because you can always find a dealer at every marina...not so with my Yamaha's... and heaven help you if you need Suzuki repairs in any sort of remote areas... I also LOVE fuel injection... the motors are so responsive and start so easy.... my 2004 Yamaha's are hard starting, cold blooded, noisy motors.. I don't think I have heard of anyone having problems with fuel injection... but everyone has problems with carbs.... #@$% things.

Joel
SEA3PO

"Can't we all be friends.?" Rodney King
 
MikeWhelpley":2knf936z said:
Greetings
My name is Mike Whelpley and I live in Terrace BC about 95 miles from the port of Prince Rupert. I am in the process of purchasing CD 22 Cruiser. One of my reasons for choosing a C-Dory was this web site and all you C-Dory owners and the wealth of information you share. I presently own a 1984 Zodiac Mk2 GR with a 35 hp Evinrude w/ Jet and prop drives. I also have custom 19 ft Aluminum Jet boat, center console,AQ 145 Vovlo Penta with a Hamilton Jet. I designed and had it fabricated in Prince Rupert in 1987. It has almost 6000 hrs. and we just had a birthday party for it celebrating 20 years. As you can guess I am a water rat and boat until things ice up. I am a fisheries consultant and instruct my own River Boat course, and do training for BC Parks and Fish and Wildlife. I have lots of Questions but will pose them one at a time for the sake of brevity. My plans are for twin Honda 50's 4 Strokes, an Anchor system with a windlass. Electric fridge, a pot puller,Wallas stove and a electronics package. What is the best set up for batteries for this boat. I plan to carry a small generator for charging and maybe a solar panel.My trips may be long in duration. There are two boats (new) in BC I am looking at but if anyone has a late model CD 22 Cruiser in this configuration I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks for the help.
Mike Whelpley

All Boats are female. If you don't look after them, they won't look after you!
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard Mike.

You do not list anything out of the ordinary for loads on your batteries; we've rigged lots and lots of boats with the equipment you suggest. Without regard to your final choice of engines we would rig your boat with two U-series AGM start batteries (the size of motorcycle or lawn tractor batteries) and a group 31 AGM house battery. I use that setup because the start batteries never see any load but starting the engines; they start easliy and will recharge quickly so that charging power can then be sent to the house battery. With the Honda BF50 I wouldn't go any larger than one group 31 (105 AH) house battery since that's really the practical limit of the available charging capacity. There are exceptions to every rule and every situation which is why we rig each boat on an individual basis but this is a good guideline. We use VSRs (votage sensing relay) or ACRs (automatic charge relay) to send charge current to the house battery as soon as the start batteries are up to snuff...usually about 13.7 volts. That's why you don't want large start batteries; you want them charged almost immediately so the house battery gets most of the charging. The batteries we use work on 1500cc motorcycles; the Honda BF50 is only 800cc's and can be hand started so large batteries are not necessary.

Remember when the engines are running you aren't (normally) using any juice from the batteries; it's all coming from the engines. You need enough battery capacity to run things when the engines aren't running and as back up for larger loads like the pot puller and/or windlass. Those are short duration loads (and not terribly high in amperage) and generally the engines are running and providing some juice as well. The typical refrigerator (of the size used in a CD22) draws around 3-amps when running so unless it runs a lot in warm weather and the main engines don't get cranked up it's not a huge factor.

Also remember when you leave the dock you are the power company; there's no source to get power back into your batteries that you don't provide. You either have to plug into an outlet and let a 110-volt battery charger do its thing, you have to run your main engines, you have to run a generator, or you have to provide a solar or wind source but whatever it is you have to provide it. You can put all kinds of battery capacity aboard the CD22 (I wouldn't have any trouble hitting a couple hundred amp-hours) but what are you going to do once you've used them? If you're depending on two 10-amp each alternators to recharge 200 amp-hours of battery capacity that would be like trying to fill an Olympic swimming pool with a garden house; sure it's possible but after how long? Make sure your system is balanced and that available charging coincides with capacity (or be prepared to utilize outside sources a lot).

With regard to engines....buy what you like. You could choke a horse on technical details but they amount only to good talking points (and fuel endless discussions). They're all good these days and there are pros and cons to each and every feature/benefit and almost never any "right" or "wrong". I tend to suggest that folks purchase engines from the nearest well regarded dealer; if they're selling them, staying in business, have a good reputation, and friends send friends there, any brand you purchase from them is likely to be doing well for them and their customers. I like the Honda BF40/50. Why? It's the lightest weight twin package you can put on the transom and the CD22 runs better with less weight on the stern. They've also been around almost 20 years with a great reputation. But, by no means are they the only viable choice. You have to get extraordinarily unlucky to put a "bad" pair of anything on the stern. So if you want more charging capacity (the Honda is anemic at best) and really want EFI (the Honda is due for replacement soon) pick something else like the Suzi's, the Yammie's or the E-TECs...all darn fine engines (the E-TEC 40/50/60 has 25-amps of available charging).

Hope this helps and best wishes.
 
Greetings Mike and welcome. How exciting to be planning the outfitting of your new boat. I chose twin Honda 40's for my new boat and I'll give you my honest feedback: As some others mentioned earlier, fuel injection is clearly an advantage, no question. Problem is, all of the other (fuel injected) engines in the 40-50 HP class weigh quite a bit more together. This additional weight, taken together with your fuel, batteries and gear, will make the boat too stern heavy. Without the addition of trim tabs and/or Permatrims you will not be able to run your boat at a proper planing level; it will "plane" but the bow will rise too high for optimal efficiency/visibility/manuverability. Even though the Honda 40/50 twin application is lighter than nearly all other twin or single/kicker combinations, I've had to install Permatrim hydrofoils on both engines to raise the stern to a proper running level. Note that my Angler is less sensitive to stern weight than your Cruiser will be. I think Dr. Bob (Thataway) is on the right track with his battery recommendations for your application. I'm not sure about the feasibility of installing the house batteries forward for better trim, but it would be worth looking into. Especially if you opt for a heavier engine package. The Honda's charge output is lower than most other engines. I have two dedicated starting batteries and a separate house battery with VSR/emergency parallel switching and run very little in the way of electronics/electrical devices, but I still find that the batteries don't get charged up as much as I'd like. My boating is done in relatively short increments, normally 45 minutes or less commutes, but I'd still like to see more charging take place. The Honda 40/50 would presumably start easily with a pull rope, especially if it's been recently run, but I'll honestly admit the alternator output is a weakness of this motor. The lack of a hose flushing port is also a clear weakness of this motor, given it's known sensitivity to salt buildup around the thermostat. Summary: Fuel injection, high output alternators, and no-run hose flushing ports are undeniably desirable features of the most modern generation of motors. The Honda 40/50's are strongest in the simple/durable/lighweight category, and with moderate care they're known to run forever. Plus, they say "Honda" on the side. Best of luck to you! Mike.
 
Most interesting suggestion from Les, about using the U 1 batteries for starting the Honda 50's. In another thread, I noted that I carry one of these in my RV/boats etc--because they will start large engines. I have started both a V 10 275 hp and a V6 240 hp engine with a fully charged U1 battery. They weigh only 24 lbs and are about 5.5 x 7.5 x 8", and I like them as a back up better than a "booster". They also will sustain electronics or lights--or make a good power source when trouble shooting.

The reason I suggested the larger house banks, is that Mike said he would be taking longer trips--he has refigeration and the run time of any refigeration system depleats batteries rapidly. Even at a 50% run time of 3 amps (my experience is that the refigerations take a little more power, but I do boat in warmer waters) you are using 36 amps a day--or close to half of a group 24 battery capacity. Thus the extra batteries would give him several more days time before any recharging would be necessary.
It would take at least 4 hours of running a 10 amp charging source to keep up with the battery demands of the refigerator alone. Our own experience is that we only average running a few hours a time on our longer trips, since we stay in anchorages for a peroid of time, and then only run an hour so so to the next anchorage.

The biggest problem with putting the batteries foreward is finding a place to put them, which will keep the balance of the boat. Ideally it would be just in front of the main foreward cabin bulkhead--but the V berth is foamed in there. We had a house battery under the galley in our 22. AGM's can be stacked or put on their side, as well as safely put into enclosed areas, so there are more options with these types of batteries. Just be sure that the wire from the charging source and to the plus bus bar is of adequate size to keep the voltage drop less than 3%.

Perhaps a compromise would be a U1 for starting each engine and a group 31 on each engine with a VSR for the refigeration/house functions. This keeps the weight down by about 60 lbs in the stern.
 
Thank you for all your comments. I am a bit overwelhmed by all of this as my brain is almost full. Too bad we can't delete some of our memory to make room for what we really need. But it is exciting to finally get on with this project. It is minus 14 C ( minus 28 C with wind chill) and boating doesn't seem quite real.
Mike Whelpley
Terrace BC
 
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