power steering assist units?
- Thread starter bcarli
- Start date
Bill-
Do you currently have hydraulic or mechanical (cable) steering?
Hydraulic is generally considerably less effort than mechanical, if you have mechanical, simply switching to hydraulic might be the answer.
I also would suggest that a less expensive way to decrease steering effort would be to increase your leverage by simply getting a larger steering wheel. Moreover, adding a spinner knob might help, too.
Because of individual thigh and abdominal clearance issues with a larger wheel, you might also have to get (or make) an adaptor for your existing steering unit to tilt the wheel into a more horizontal plane. Also, complete new hydraulic units with adjustable tilt features are available.
I actually have power assisted steering on my Sea Ray with twin inboards, but the installation is standard factory OEM, so can only say it does steer with very little effort, albeit with less of the feel (feedback) that unassisted units might have, in my guesstimate.
There are electrical "fly by wire" units available too, where the helm steering unit and engine steering slave unit are electrical, but the expense and loss of feeling there are both greater.
Back before 9-11, I rode on a 47-foot Surfboat with a friend of mine who was a U. S. Coast Guard Coxwain , and he mentioned that he preferred the feel of regular hydraulic steering of the older 44-foot Surfboats to the the fly by wire feel of the new models.
Hope this helps!
Joe. :teeth :thup
Do you currently have hydraulic or mechanical (cable) steering?
Hydraulic is generally considerably less effort than mechanical, if you have mechanical, simply switching to hydraulic might be the answer.
I also would suggest that a less expensive way to decrease steering effort would be to increase your leverage by simply getting a larger steering wheel. Moreover, adding a spinner knob might help, too.
Because of individual thigh and abdominal clearance issues with a larger wheel, you might also have to get (or make) an adaptor for your existing steering unit to tilt the wheel into a more horizontal plane. Also, complete new hydraulic units with adjustable tilt features are available.
I actually have power assisted steering on my Sea Ray with twin inboards, but the installation is standard factory OEM, so can only say it does steer with very little effort, albeit with less of the feel (feedback) that unassisted units might have, in my guesstimate.
There are electrical "fly by wire" units available too, where the helm steering unit and engine steering slave unit are electrical, but the expense and loss of feeling there are both greater.
Back before 9-11, I rode on a 47-foot Surfboat with a friend of mine who was a U. S. Coast Guard Coxwain , and he mentioned that he preferred the feel of regular hydraulic steering of the older 44-foot Surfboats to the the fly by wire feel of the new models.
Hope this helps!
Joe. :teeth :thup
Are you having problems with your steering or just throwing out a ? for discussion?
A hydraulic helm can be rebuilt easily or updated.
same for steering ram
Some ram brands leaks and require replacing the seals .
other, UFlex Steering Ram does not (better design) and beefier
Can u post additional information so the gurus can provide an informative answer? thanks
A hydraulic helm can be rebuilt easily or updated.
same for steering ram
Some ram brands leaks and require replacing the seals .
other, UFlex Steering Ram does not (better design) and beefier
Can u post additional information so the gurus can provide an informative answer? thanks
Thank you for your input.
I am driving my boat on average 7 hours a day seven days a week and have been since June, and probably will continue to until the end of August. It's amazing how much my shoulders, arms and neck ache after spending so much time driving....So I'm trying to figure out the best way to fix this problem. I never thought about a bigger wheel. That probably is the first place to start. The best thing I ever did on my boat was to replace the factory seat with a bucket-seat from a Honda car. WHAT A DIFFERENCE in comfort. I bought the seat for $100 at a garage sale and it only took a few hours to instal.
Thanks again for your feedback
Bill
I am driving my boat on average 7 hours a day seven days a week and have been since June, and probably will continue to until the end of August. It's amazing how much my shoulders, arms and neck ache after spending so much time driving....So I'm trying to figure out the best way to fix this problem. I never thought about a bigger wheel. That probably is the first place to start. The best thing I ever did on my boat was to replace the factory seat with a bucket-seat from a Honda car. WHAT A DIFFERENCE in comfort. I bought the seat for $100 at a garage sale and it only took a few hours to instal.
Thanks again for your feedback
Bill
With that much usage, if the type of boating lends itself, I would have an auto pilot. We did not notice any particular fatigue with the C Dory25, but we only ran it a month at a time--and probably an average of 5 hours a day. I felt the Tom Cat with counter rotating Suzuki engines was as easy as driving my car.
You might also check to see if the trim tab on the anti ventilation plate is correctly set, to eliminate any torque from the prop rotation.
I have only had power steering on larger I/O boats (such as Joe's Sea Ray).
You might also check to see if the trim tab on the anti ventilation plate is correctly set, to eliminate any torque from the prop rotation.
I have only had power steering on larger I/O boats (such as Joe's Sea Ray).
Captains Cat
New member
I don't see a response to the question asked of you about what kind of steering you have. Do you currently have Hydraulic steering? If so and You still get very tired, then certainly an autopilot which is not hard to install on hydraulic steering would certainly help. If you have mechanical steering, installaiion of hydraulic May solve your problem!. JMHO!
Charlie
Charlie
PaulNBriannaLynn
New member
We have the baystar unit on our boat and I like it very much. Turning the wheel takes almost no effort. Previously with mechanical steering there was some resistance as you were contending with the weight of the motors.
The comments about leakage are appropriate. The only complaint I have about our unit is that it does have a little bit of leaking at the helm. I top it off about once per year with probably an ounce of fluid and its not noticable enough to replace the seal yet, but I do have to wipe the bulkhead down occassionally with a paper towel.
After a long trip I still get the soar neck and shoulders, but I think our helm seat leaves something to be desired.
The comments about leakage are appropriate. The only complaint I have about our unit is that it does have a little bit of leaking at the helm. I top it off about once per year with probably an ounce of fluid and its not noticable enough to replace the seal yet, but I do have to wipe the bulkhead down occassionally with a paper towel.
After a long trip I still get the soar neck and shoulders, but I think our helm seat leaves something to be desired.
bcarli":3na2ydco said:
I've looked at that seat in your album many times, and would love to put in something like that. Can you tell me what sort of Honda it came from? What part of the car? Was it a mini-van jump seat or something like that?
Thanks,
Sunbeam
PS: It may not all apply to your 25, but there was a pretty long thread talking about Bay Star vs. Sea Star hydraulic steering around 6 months ago (I started it and I think it was in January). Bay Star only goes up to a 150hp engine, so that may not even be in the running though.
I could see an autopilot giving you some relief, if there were some periods of time you didn't have to be actively steering (even if you were still sitting at the helm ready to grab the wheel again).
Assuming that there are no mechanical issues with the steering system, are your trim tabs on the motor(s) adjusted properly. While some steering systems are zero feedback, this does not mean that the forces to turn left and right are balanced. You may find that the force to turn one way is different from the other. The tabs should be adjusted to give balanced turning force at your most commonly used cruising speed.
My boat has hydraulic steering, but when cruising at speed the force to turn the wheel left is a bit more than to turn the wheel right. Someday I will adjust the trim tab on the motor to correct this, but it is a trial and error type exercise that I haven't got around to yet.
My boat has hydraulic steering, but when cruising at speed the force to turn the wheel left is a bit more than to turn the wheel right. Someday I will adjust the trim tab on the motor to correct this, but it is a trial and error type exercise that I haven't got around to yet.
I just happened to be doing some reading on the Sea Star steering pages. This page looks to give some good info, with links to more "decision points" for further reading. They talk about lock-to-lock turns vs. effort, etc.
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/product ... ont-mount/
They do mention that for "finger tip control" there are power steering units that can be added, but that's probably overkill.
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/product ... ont-mount/
They do mention that for "finger tip control" there are power steering units that can be added, but that's probably overkill.
It would be good to know what brand and model of hydraulic steering you have.
I suggest the following:
1. Make sure the fluid in the system IS NOT automotive transmission fluid, but instead a good quality hydraulic fluid, designed for this purpose.
2. Confirm that the fluid level is correct.
If 1 and 2 are confirmed:
3. Check for friction points at the motor. Keep in mind that a number of the components must slide freely. Teflon lubricant is a good choice.
If 1, 2, and 3 do not alleviate the symptom:
a. Consider larger diameter fluid lines, go from 3/8" to 1/2".
b. Install an autopilot.
I installed a Raymarine series 100, and I'm happy with it. Instead of writing how to do it, I suggest you go to the Raymarine website and download the installation instructions.
Enjoy
I suggest the following:
1. Make sure the fluid in the system IS NOT automotive transmission fluid, but instead a good quality hydraulic fluid, designed for this purpose.
2. Confirm that the fluid level is correct.
If 1 and 2 are confirmed:
3. Check for friction points at the motor. Keep in mind that a number of the components must slide freely. Teflon lubricant is a good choice.
If 1, 2, and 3 do not alleviate the symptom:
a. Consider larger diameter fluid lines, go from 3/8" to 1/2".
b. Install an autopilot.
I installed a Raymarine series 100, and I'm happy with it. Instead of writing how to do it, I suggest you go to the Raymarine website and download the installation instructions.
Enjoy
I doubt that increasing the lines to 1/2" would solve the issue here.
Two of us have mentioned the trim tab on the anti ventilation plate. Has that been optimized? Is there always pressure to one side when on a plane?
There has been a new line up of autopilots in the last year. Before that many were using the RayMarine, which the EV 100 has now replaced. The Simrad 24 is a very good pilot, as well as the Garmin GPH 10. Each has some features which are helpful in specific instances. The question which you are going to have to resolve is if the pump on the least expensive of these pilots is going to be powerful for the motor on the C Dory 25. What you can get away with on a 22, may be too slow for the 25. (depending on engines and set up of the system).
Two of us have mentioned the trim tab on the anti ventilation plate. Has that been optimized? Is there always pressure to one side when on a plane?
There has been a new line up of autopilots in the last year. Before that many were using the RayMarine, which the EV 100 has now replaced. The Simrad 24 is a very good pilot, as well as the Garmin GPH 10. Each has some features which are helpful in specific instances. The question which you are going to have to resolve is if the pump on the least expensive of these pilots is going to be powerful for the motor on the C Dory 25. What you can get away with on a 22, may be too slow for the 25. (depending on engines and set up of the system).
Good points Thataway...
The suggestion to increase the volume by increasing the diameter of the lines was given to me by the factory tech support people. While I can't scientifically verify the information, it made a noticeable difference in my Baystar with 90hp Honda. By the way, I decided on the 1/2" diameter, because the local hydraulic hose supplier had the material on hand.
Cheers
The suggestion to increase the volume by increasing the diameter of the lines was given to me by the factory tech support people. While I can't scientifically verify the information, it made a noticeable difference in my Baystar with 90hp Honda. By the way, I decided on the 1/2" diameter, because the local hydraulic hose supplier had the material on hand.
Cheers
PM sent--the volume of the lines on a C Dory 22 with the 5/16" standard nylon tubing is about 147 cu in. for 1/2" tubing it would be 377 cu inches of volume of fluid--the only thing which would change is fluid friction. The volume of pump remains (1.4 cu inch) and the volume of the cylinder remains the same--8 cu inches. My personal finding is that the 5/16 tubing works well in my C Dory 22 and the Caracal. Easy control with brodie knob of light touch.
The only boat I have owned which had 1/2" tubing is was the 62 footer we took to Europe and back--which had dual stations and a huge (10 sq foot) rudder. We were running an auto pilot pump sized for a 90 foot tug boat.
The only boat I have owned which had 1/2" tubing is was the 62 footer we took to Europe and back--which had dual stations and a huge (10 sq foot) rudder. We were running an auto pilot pump sized for a 90 foot tug boat.
I have no knowledge of why this would be, but interestingly, when I was talking to the folks at Teleflex a couple of weeks ago, and asking about the various options for mixing and matching (say if I didn't want to just go with a pre-packaged Baystar kit), I'm pretty sure they said that one upgrade they might suggest was going with Seastar lines (vs. the Baystar tubing). I think I asked why/how that made a difference, and I don't remember exactly what they said (or if they gave a reason) but just that it would make for a better feel. Again, not sure why, but...?
(I'm slightly hedging the details because when they called me back I was in someone else's car on the way to some errands and had no way to make notes.)
(I'm slightly hedging the details because when they called me back I was in someone else's car on the way to some errands and had no way to make notes.)
Before this thread is too far high jacked; The OP in this thread asked about what would reduce his fatigue. The 25 usually comes with a SeaStar steering--probably the 1.7 cu inch pump. Yes, going up in size for the tubing might help, but it is a fairly major expense, (probably in the $250 range plus depending on what hydraulic fitting shops are available.) The Sea Star has semi 3/8" custom tubing, where as the Bay Star comes with a pre cut 5/16" tubing. To up grade the Bay Star (not relevant for the PO) to the 3/8" tubing, would bring the cost up close to what the Sea Star would cost. Thus if a person who had a 22 with mechanical steering, and wanted to have larger 3/8 tubing, the Sea Star pump would be a better buy.
Pedromo had related his experience with going from the standard 22 hydraulic helm, (probably 5/16 nylon tubing to 1/2"--which I think would be overkill for the C Dory 22). It is possible that going to 1/2" for the Sea Star in the C Dory 25, might help--but not as much as the auto pilot or power assist (power assist would seem like over kill also for the fatigue issue). There is a very good reason that almost all long distance voyagers use auto pilots of some form--certainly steering any boat for 7 hours every day is fatigue inducing.
Pedromo had related his experience with going from the standard 22 hydraulic helm, (probably 5/16 nylon tubing to 1/2"--which I think would be overkill for the C Dory 22). It is possible that going to 1/2" for the Sea Star in the C Dory 25, might help--but not as much as the auto pilot or power assist (power assist would seem like over kill also for the fatigue issue). There is a very good reason that almost all long distance voyagers use auto pilots of some form--certainly steering any boat for 7 hours every day is fatigue inducing.
colbysmith
Active member
Bringing this thread back to life as I'm delving into my stiff steering. Compared to my 22, the steering on my 25 seems much stiffer. Both boats had the SeaStar Hydraulic steering systems, with the regular helms, standard size ram and 1000 psi flexible hose. Specifically on my 25 it currently has the Sea Star Helm HH5271-3 1.7cu.in. and Sea Star Ram H5358 8.34cu.in. Hoses are 1000 psi. Helms are rated at 1000 psi, and the ram 1500 psi. I have two helms (cabin and cockpit) and after purchasing the boat, added the Garmin Reactor 40 autopilot with smart pump. Initially I had an issue with when turning the helm starboard slowly, no response. I'd have to "snap it" or turn it quickly to get it to respond. Eventually I learned from a SeaStar engineer that this was due to the valves in the regular helms, and why SeaStar recommended using their Pro helms in dual helm installations. Since I had already purchased two brand new helms, I had no desire to spend more money on the Pro's, and rather just installed shutoff valves in the two pressure lines at the cockpit helm. That resolved that issue. However, I still have relatively stiff steering, compared to what I remember on my 22, and compared to a 23 Ranger Tug's steering. Tom from C-Otter has driven my 25, and says it feels the same as his steering. Ken on Sea Angel has told me he can easily turn his helm with a finger. I have the Yami 150, and a Yami 9.9 kicker. The kicker is connected via a manual cable steering linkage hooked in to the Main's steering rod. I have disconnected the kicker steering, but that makes only a little difference. The steering is a little easier when static. Steering is hardest on plane, but I would expect that. I have bled the system numerous times, and confident there is no air in the system. I have the bubble purge system, and when that is connected with both ram bleed ports open, the helm is much easier to turn. But relative to with the bleed ports closed. So, is the 25 with hydraulic steering typically stiff? Think of power steering in a car where your pump has gone out. You can still steer, but it's much harder. I did recently learn of the power assist units that the originator of this post asked about. But would rather not go that direction. I am about to order some new 1500 psi hoses, as they have more reinforcement in the sidewalls and don't expand or stretch as much. I'm also seriously considering going to the Pro helms, and would need new hoses for that anyway. Lastly, while I have not visually been able to locate any kinks or restrictions in the current hoses, the cost to replace the hoses would be the lowest cost in doing anymore changes to the system at this point, and would alleviate any bad hose I can't visually see.
So, for all other 25 owners reading this with hydraulic steering, does anyone currently have the power assist? For the others, do you find your boats rather stiff to steer, almost like a car whose power steering has gone out? DO you have the regular helm or the Pro helm? And finally, the pro helm comes in 1.7, 2.0 and 2.4 cu.in. also, I believe. Should I stay with the 1.7, or would going to the larger capacity make for easier steering? Colby
So, for all other 25 owners reading this with hydraulic steering, does anyone currently have the power assist? For the others, do you find your boats rather stiff to steer, almost like a car whose power steering has gone out? DO you have the regular helm or the Pro helm? And finally, the pro helm comes in 1.7, 2.0 and 2.4 cu.in. also, I believe. Should I stay with the 1.7, or would going to the larger capacity make for easier steering? Colby