I just bought a new 25' C-Dory after owning a 23' Parker. As a new CD owner, sure could use some advice on whether or not to install twin 75 Hondas. The dealership here in Alaska is really pushing the new 135hp Honda and a 20hp high thrust kicker option. I'm not sold on either configuration yet. Thought someone could share their experience.
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Power Options 25' CD
- Thread starter Fishbum
- Start date
We're going with the 135 main and 15 (high thrust) aux. mainly because we prefer the single to twins. Folks seem happy with twin 75's as well (even 90's). Also, we troll much of the time for Salmon or Kokanee (need slow troll). Another thought is that the 15 costs significantly less than a 75 to replace so why not put the trolling hours on the 15.
In the end, it's your choice, both setups have their advantages.
In the end, it's your choice, both setups have their advantages.
Not that many 135s or 150s in our area yet. I've run a 150 on a 21 Arima and was very favorably impressed. Very quiet and smooth, wide power/torque band, and extremely economical. I think the 135 would be a perfect engine for the 25. The 20 might be overkill for a kicker and think a 15 would be adequate, but AK gets some currents that would make more power something to consider. I don't own a 25, but have run them quite a lot.
Dusty
Dusty
Purchased a 25 back at the Seattle boat show and it went into prodution last week, so I do not have on the water experience yet but did some research and talked with some existing owners.
The first question is how comfortable are you getting back home or to the closest marina using your kicker if your main stops working. I have been told a 15 kicker run at 3/4 throttle will move the 25 at around 7 mph.
Then there is the extra weight of having twins 2-75 Hondas are around 746 lbs vs a 135 Honda and 15 kicker at 570lbs.
If you do go with twins I would take a look at Suzuki outboards since the factory has become a dealer for them as of last month . Two Suzuki 70 hp weigh in at 670 lbs and have multi port fuel injection in addition to being less expensive then the Hondas.
I ended up going with a Honda 135 with a 15 hp kicker. I will be doing most of my boating in the San Juans and Gulf Islands so I am comfortable that should my main quit, there are enough marinas around for me to get to one using my kicker.
I also looked at the Suzuki 140 but felt that in this case the newer technology of the Honda outweighed the cost savings of the Suzuki altho the Suzukis lower price and 6 year warranty made the decision a little tougher.
I hope I did not confuse your decision making process any more but thought you might like to have the additional information the Suzuki outboards.
The first question is how comfortable are you getting back home or to the closest marina using your kicker if your main stops working. I have been told a 15 kicker run at 3/4 throttle will move the 25 at around 7 mph.
Then there is the extra weight of having twins 2-75 Hondas are around 746 lbs vs a 135 Honda and 15 kicker at 570lbs.
If you do go with twins I would take a look at Suzuki outboards since the factory has become a dealer for them as of last month . Two Suzuki 70 hp weigh in at 670 lbs and have multi port fuel injection in addition to being less expensive then the Hondas.
I ended up going with a Honda 135 with a 15 hp kicker. I will be doing most of my boating in the San Juans and Gulf Islands so I am comfortable that should my main quit, there are enough marinas around for me to get to one using my kicker.
I also looked at the Suzuki 140 but felt that in this case the newer technology of the Honda outweighed the cost savings of the Suzuki altho the Suzukis lower price and 6 year warranty made the decision a little tougher.
I hope I did not confuse your decision making process any more but thought you might like to have the additional information the Suzuki outboards.
Guys, this is a good thread. Can I add one more element to the decision mix? Well here it is... manuervability. My wife and I are seriously thinking about a 25" CD and the next biggest decision is twins or single. I have never operated a boat with with twins (inboards included) and I know what its like getting into my slip with a single (backing in). I am at the mouth of the Susquanna River in MD and the current is perpendicular to my slip. Its really tricky and sometimes not so graceful the current and or wind wants to "play" too. However, I slip next to several boats with twins and they use forward and reverse thrust on opposite engines to turn the boat and they seem to slip right in (no pun intended). Anyway, I would love to hear from some Dory owners on twins/singles and manuverability. Thanks! Butch
manuverability... the spelling is in serious question :crook , but you all know what I mean :smile
manuverability... the spelling is in serious question :crook , but you all know what I mean :smile
Butch,
I just brought up to the "forefront" the thread entitled "Help on 22 Cruiser Motor Selection"....there is considerable information there regarding twins vs. single engines. Be sure to read all 3 pages of the information posted there. I'm sure this information is applicable to a 25' also.
I just brought up to the "forefront" the thread entitled "Help on 22 Cruiser Motor Selection"....there is considerable information there regarding twins vs. single engines. Be sure to read all 3 pages of the information posted there. I'm sure this information is applicable to a 25' also.
Les Lampman
New member
Hi grouperdog and all,
I think the suggestion of twin Suzuki/Johnson 70 4-strokes would be a good one but the motors aren't made in a 25" shaft length (a requirement of the CD25). And that's part of what makes the choice of twins on the CD25 a hard one; Honda quit making the BF75's in a 25" model so only the 90 is available and two 90's is just more horsepower thatn the CD25 really needs but since they're the same weight as the 75's I guess it's a moot point.
Nothing I've seen or read about the CD25 with twins convinces me that there's any reason (other than you want them) to go that way and much about observed performance and boat balance suggests that a single is a (techincally) better choice.
Unless you're going to routinely run over 4500 to 5000 rpm (if so are you sure you want a CD25) the BF135 is as good a choice as the BF150 and you save enough to pay for the autopilot! :wink:
The kicker of choice for the CD25 would be the BF15 not the BF20; the BF20 isn't available in an extra-long (25") shaft model so unless you're willing to mount the motor on an 'up-down' bracket you'll want the 25" BFP15D4XHTA. Only the Power Thrust model is available in an extra-long shaft and it only comes with power tilt.
I think the suggestion of twin Suzuki/Johnson 70 4-strokes would be a good one but the motors aren't made in a 25" shaft length (a requirement of the CD25). And that's part of what makes the choice of twins on the CD25 a hard one; Honda quit making the BF75's in a 25" model so only the 90 is available and two 90's is just more horsepower thatn the CD25 really needs but since they're the same weight as the 75's I guess it's a moot point.
Nothing I've seen or read about the CD25 with twins convinces me that there's any reason (other than you want them) to go that way and much about observed performance and boat balance suggests that a single is a (techincally) better choice.
Unless you're going to routinely run over 4500 to 5000 rpm (if so are you sure you want a CD25) the BF135 is as good a choice as the BF150 and you save enough to pay for the autopilot! :wink:
The kicker of choice for the CD25 would be the BF15 not the BF20; the BF20 isn't available in an extra-long (25") shaft model so unless you're willing to mount the motor on an 'up-down' bracket you'll want the 25" BFP15D4XHTA. Only the Power Thrust model is available in an extra-long shaft and it only comes with power tilt.
I have a 25 that I bought from Les. It has the 130 not the 135. Les is my guru, but I have a couple of comments after almost one season of using the boat. I'm not sure if the Honda 90's now have fuel injection. If not, I would recommend the 135 just for the convenience of having the injection. Our boat was in storage for 5 months, with a full tank of old (stabilized) fuel. It started on the first crank, and has run without a miss for the last two weekends. Also, the weight of twins may cause more balance issues than you realize. With a full 100 gallon tank of fuel below the cockpit floor, two batteries, a big cooler and gear in the back you will feel the weight. We just added a Honda 15 kicker, and I can tell a difference with that 100 lbs or so of extra weight hanging off of the back.
Lyle
Lyle
Any advice or pictures on your 15hp mount/set up. I sure could use some more input. Like you, I using Les as my Guru on the subject and he mentioned your boat. I'm really uncomfortable at this point that my dealership really understands these boats at all???
Any does or don'ts sure would be welcome. Thanks for the advice. Fishbum
Any does or don'ts sure would be welcome. Thanks for the advice. Fishbum
Good discussion, been thinking about repowering Shearwater for a couple of years but tough to justify when the existing motor has some life left in it (115 hp carbed 2-stoke)
On the kicker I have a 15 hp Yamaha 4-stroke and feel that it is enough to keep me out of trouble in most cases. I get 7 mph at full throttle in calm wind and water conditions.
When I do repower the main about the only sure thing is that it will be with more than 115 hp and it will be a single motor install.
Personally I feel that something in the 175 hp range would be perfect. The 115 spends the majority of it's time around 4 grand while running 18 to 20 mph with just me on the boat. Add two people fishing gear, ice, coolers and your looking at 16 mph at 4000 RPM. Not sure a 15 to 35 hp increase would be enough so that you could cruise at 20+ mph in good conditions with a load and run around 65% of full throttle instead of 70% to 80%
It's much easier to throttle back than it is to add hp later in my mind.
stevej
On the kicker I have a 15 hp Yamaha 4-stroke and feel that it is enough to keep me out of trouble in most cases. I get 7 mph at full throttle in calm wind and water conditions.
When I do repower the main about the only sure thing is that it will be with more than 115 hp and it will be a single motor install.
Personally I feel that something in the 175 hp range would be perfect. The 115 spends the majority of it's time around 4 grand while running 18 to 20 mph with just me on the boat. Add two people fishing gear, ice, coolers and your looking at 16 mph at 4000 RPM. Not sure a 15 to 35 hp increase would be enough so that you could cruise at 20+ mph in good conditions with a load and run around 65% of full throttle instead of 70% to 80%
It's much easier to throttle back than it is to add hp later in my mind.
stevej
I'll get some pictures of it and post it in my album. It is the 15 high thrust that Les described. It has EZ-steer and Troll Master so that it can be controlled from either the cockpit or the helm. It is mounted on a bracket so that it will clear the trim tabs. It's plumbed to the same fuel filter as the main, however Les put a fitting on it so that it can be detached and connected to an auxiliary tank. A nice feature that allows you to get home if you have a main tank full of bad gas.
Lyle
Lyle
We're not big enough for twin engines, but I wouldn't if I could.
Twin engines require twice instruments, twice the maintenance, and have twice the problems of single engine setups. This adds up to twice the annual maintenance cost. The present a much nicer profile at the stern and look very yachty though. And there are some handling benefits if you have three hands to work the levers and the wheel.
A major hassle is syncronizing the engine rpms. Unless the're synced they develop a drone known to drive some folks mad! :wink:
-- Chuck
Twin engines require twice instruments, twice the maintenance, and have twice the problems of single engine setups. This adds up to twice the annual maintenance cost. The present a much nicer profile at the stern and look very yachty though. And there are some handling benefits if you have three hands to work the levers and the wheel.
A major hassle is syncronizing the engine rpms. Unless the're synced they develop a drone known to drive some folks mad! :wink:
-- Chuck
My thoughts, as I read through this, seem to boil down to: If one is a fisherperson, the big single and a kicker makes the most sense. For a cruiser, it seems to be a matter of preference.
Thirty five years of flying taught me the question is not "If an engine quits" but "When an engine quits". Therefore, I chose twins. An engine has not quit yet, but one will.
As far as multiple failures, with enough tools, I think I can keep one motor on line, by cannibalizing the other.
One never has enough props if you explore the back-waters of the Mississippi.
Duane,
Plan B
Thirty five years of flying taught me the question is not "If an engine quits" but "When an engine quits". Therefore, I chose twins. An engine has not quit yet, but one will.
As far as multiple failures, with enough tools, I think I can keep one motor on line, by cannibalizing the other.
One never has enough props if you explore the back-waters of the Mississippi.
Duane,
Plan B
Duane,
I agree, kind of. I've had 'em quit airborne and seaborne. And expect another quiet period some day - but I've lost both engines because one prop threw enough stuff into the other prop to take out both... stroke, one, two, three, four...
For the way I boat a main/kicker works best. At least one is generally out of the water. And what works for me doesn't mean it works for anyone else. TG I haven't had a main quit since I gave up outdrives. The differential maneuvering of twins, as closely spaced as they are with our CD's (except for my T-Cat), isn't a huge advantage IMO, but it is a factor to consider. If we go with the Skagit Orca it will have twin 150 Hondas... so there goes my whole case!!
Dusty
I agree, kind of. I've had 'em quit airborne and seaborne. And expect another quiet period some day - but I've lost both engines because one prop threw enough stuff into the other prop to take out both... stroke, one, two, three, four...
For the way I boat a main/kicker works best. At least one is generally out of the water. And what works for me doesn't mean it works for anyone else. TG I haven't had a main quit since I gave up outdrives. The differential maneuvering of twins, as closely spaced as they are with our CD's (except for my T-Cat), isn't a huge advantage IMO, but it is a factor to consider. If we go with the Skagit Orca it will have twin 150 Hondas... so there goes my whole case!!
Dusty
Captains Cat
New member
Big difference on an aircraft Dusty. I've heard that, even when they both quit, you've always got enough time to get to the scene of the crash!
Charlie
Charlie
Hi Gang;
This is my first ever thread input here.
This pass week I had the chance to 'sea trial' the CD22 & CD25 at Cutter Marine in MD. The CD22 had a HONDA 90 and the CD25 a HONDA 135. Both hulls had trim tabs , had 3 adults and minimum loading of 'stuff'. Each seemed to ride abt 14 to 17kts at abt 3400 rpm and seemed to have the least loading on the motor. The rep there sure wanted to push the singles!
I think the HONDA 150 would have been a better fit since the weight factor is equal to the 135.
I was very impressed with the transmission and injection system of the '135. The test I did was an enhanced maneuver to simulated a 'man-overboard'. The throttle control reminded me of the old
Morse Controls. If only the '90 had that transmission !! And controls!!
The quietness of both are soooo much better than the Merc 135 I have on my 18' SeaRay. The transmission action and starting characteristics are the same as the Merc.
I'm weighing the arguements of single verses twins also. The Kicker approach is a very valid point for the the safety point of 'returning to port'.
The economy of the single is a 'no-brainer' to me with weight and consumption of todays expensive gas. The extra weight at the stern as it affects trim and counterpoise effect of extra weight in the anchor locker
has some points as well.
The question here in the Lower Chesapeake Bay is both reliability and manueverability. For the pass 15 years I have been active in the USCGAUX and have had to tow many 'newbies' and 'oldies' back in. The currents and winds can be a real challenge when passing under some of our bridge structures. I should note that I was a crew or coxswain on a 37' Tug with twins. Here all we did was center the helm and use the engine to steer and manuever... very effective with a 45' sailboat or cruiser along side.
Has any talk been abt closing off the transom and adding an Armstrong type extension to move the engines further aft by abt 1ft.? By the way, I was comparing this with the Rosborough RF246 and here is where all parts fell in place to us.
So you see I have not yet resolved which way to go before I commit the check.... I have permission from my wife. Can't get any better than that, except being with her another 40+ years would be great!
Did any of this make any sense? I will try harder next time not to write a book.....
This is my first ever thread input here.
This pass week I had the chance to 'sea trial' the CD22 & CD25 at Cutter Marine in MD. The CD22 had a HONDA 90 and the CD25 a HONDA 135. Both hulls had trim tabs , had 3 adults and minimum loading of 'stuff'. Each seemed to ride abt 14 to 17kts at abt 3400 rpm and seemed to have the least loading on the motor. The rep there sure wanted to push the singles!
I think the HONDA 150 would have been a better fit since the weight factor is equal to the 135.
I was very impressed with the transmission and injection system of the '135. The test I did was an enhanced maneuver to simulated a 'man-overboard'. The throttle control reminded me of the old
Morse Controls. If only the '90 had that transmission !! And controls!!
The quietness of both are soooo much better than the Merc 135 I have on my 18' SeaRay. The transmission action and starting characteristics are the same as the Merc.
I'm weighing the arguements of single verses twins also. The Kicker approach is a very valid point for the the safety point of 'returning to port'.
The economy of the single is a 'no-brainer' to me with weight and consumption of todays expensive gas. The extra weight at the stern as it affects trim and counterpoise effect of extra weight in the anchor locker
has some points as well.
The question here in the Lower Chesapeake Bay is both reliability and manueverability. For the pass 15 years I have been active in the USCGAUX and have had to tow many 'newbies' and 'oldies' back in. The currents and winds can be a real challenge when passing under some of our bridge structures. I should note that I was a crew or coxswain on a 37' Tug with twins. Here all we did was center the helm and use the engine to steer and manuever... very effective with a 45' sailboat or cruiser along side.
Has any talk been abt closing off the transom and adding an Armstrong type extension to move the engines further aft by abt 1ft.? By the way, I was comparing this with the Rosborough RF246 and here is where all parts fell in place to us.
So you see I have not yet resolved which way to go before I commit the check.... I have permission from my wife. Can't get any better than that, except being with her another 40+ years would be great!
Did any of this make any sense? I will try harder next time not to write a book.....
Art,
Just an old Dusty view - the 135 would certainly be my choice for the 25. The 135 and 150 have similar torque and hp curves up to about 4500 rpm, and unless you water ski or some other activity that requires 4500+ why spend the extra loot.
As for twin vs single - I don't dare touch that one. My personal preference has been single and kicker, but it would be easy to change my mind after seeing the new Da Nag and super-sized Sea Shift.
Twin engines certainly have the edge for maneuvering, but with the vectored thrust of the outboard, both the 22 and 25 are very maneuverable with a single engine.
"Rudder amidship and steer with throttles" was step one in teaching new skippers. There are many steps beyond that, and a competent skipper uses all of the tools. Twin outboards (or outdrives) respond beautifully to a combination of throttle and rudder.
My new CD Orca has the engine mounted on an Armstrong extension -- full report when she gets wet.
Dusty
Just an old Dusty view - the 135 would certainly be my choice for the 25. The 135 and 150 have similar torque and hp curves up to about 4500 rpm, and unless you water ski or some other activity that requires 4500+ why spend the extra loot.
As for twin vs single - I don't dare touch that one. My personal preference has been single and kicker, but it would be easy to change my mind after seeing the new Da Nag and super-sized Sea Shift.
Twin engines certainly have the edge for maneuvering, but with the vectored thrust of the outboard, both the 22 and 25 are very maneuverable with a single engine.
"Rudder amidship and steer with throttles" was step one in teaching new skippers. There are many steps beyond that, and a competent skipper uses all of the tools. Twin outboards (or outdrives) respond beautifully to a combination of throttle and rudder.
My new CD Orca has the engine mounted on an Armstrong extension -- full report when she gets wet.
Dusty
Hi Dusty;
Congratulations on the ORCA. You are so right abt a skipper using all the other tools with regards to controlling one's vessel, from outside forces to helm to thrust.
I looked at the ORCA, but the family comptroller won't go that far. No complaint, though.
I hope to have the decission done by the end of August, at latest; given the variables I'm working with.
I guess I am a product of an old school of thought.. If the vessel is rated for 100HP, go for 100HP. I would think the dealer would like this on their spreadsheets.
Maybe I should reconsider the single so I can add some more toys, such as RADAR, etc..
Are there any CD25s in the Lower Ches. Bay area of VA that you know of? I did not notice any in the rolls here..
Thanks agn for your remarks and blessings to you and your family...and all you other C-Brats [love that name!].
Congratulations on the ORCA. You are so right abt a skipper using all the other tools with regards to controlling one's vessel, from outside forces to helm to thrust.
I looked at the ORCA, but the family comptroller won't go that far. No complaint, though.
I hope to have the decission done by the end of August, at latest; given the variables I'm working with.
I guess I am a product of an old school of thought.. If the vessel is rated for 100HP, go for 100HP. I would think the dealer would like this on their spreadsheets.
Maybe I should reconsider the single so I can add some more toys, such as RADAR, etc..
Are there any CD25s in the Lower Ches. Bay area of VA that you know of? I did not notice any in the rolls here..
Thanks agn for your remarks and blessings to you and your family...and all you other C-Brats [love that name!].