Permatrim Hydrofoils

Geez,

The Gizmo shop is still up and running. I thought maybe the proprietor had closed the door and taken early retirement.

Jon, you'll like that new permathing. All the stuff I got from there is working just like the day I bolted it on. Great equipment at a perfect price, or was that perfect equipment at a great price. Oh well, you get the idea.

Tim
 
Jon -

Behold the first, the last, the only PermaDork™ in the world. Do you want me to mail it, or wait'll next month and deliver it personal?

The material is polycarbonate. I'm not saying it's tough, but if the rig you drive at work has a clear plastic barrier between you and the bad guys, chances are it is made from the same stuff. Bulletproof? No. But it will hoist C-Lou's scrawny little butt up a couple notches.

PermaDork.sized.jpg

There are no mounting holes drilled in it. You can transfer the holes you already have in the cav plate and drill it yourself. For the trial, you don't need a whole bunch of screws, but use at least two per side with one pair pretty far back on the cav plate. It fits real good on my Honda 130, and Les told me a while back that it has the same lower unit as the 75 and 90.

You're gonna be a dork if you try it, though. Just one small step from nerd.
 
Wow Mike, that's amazing! Heck yeah I'll try the Permadork out, although it doesn't look dorky at all. As a matter of fact, that thing looks very hi-tech.

As much as I would like to slap that deal on there right now, I'll be patient and get it at the SBS. I'm sure others would like to look at your talented work.

Way cool Mike :thup
 
Well Mike, I took her out on glassy Lake Crescent today and this is what happened:

Running in a straight line at different speeds ( 0 to 26 kts.), the Permadork performed great. When I got the boat trimmed out at around 21 kts., the boat was like riding on air. Great smooth ride!

When turning in circles (left and right turns), I think this is what impressed me the most. I started with a moderate turn running at 20 kts and trimmed it up a bit. The boat turned like my car, unbelievable! So, I got brave and went faster and faster while turning in circles. Still, the prop never washed out. Finally, I put the hammer down and cranked her pretty tight and the prop still wouldn't wash out. The boat tracked really smooth in all the turns. There wasn't any weird felling like that SE300 hydrofoil I recently removed.

I'm sold. The only thing I noticed is that it flexes quite a bit, but it didn't seem to hurt the performance much.

Thanks again Mike, I had a ball trying that thing out. It really works.

Tonight I decided to purchase the real Permatrim for $104 plus tax for three reasons:

1.Mike gave me the reassurance to spend $104 dollars on the real
Permatrim.

2.With Mike's permission, I would like to pass this fine piece of work on
for others to try. It will save you some bucks if you don't like it.
If you're running any other hydrofoil other than the Permatrim, I
think you'll really be impressed

3.It really works. :thup

Tyboo Mike's gadget shop does it again!!!
 
Hey Jon,

Glad to hear that you like the Permatrim. Nice to have the Wizard of Warrenton come up with the "PermaDork" as a test and try facsimile. Mike's a pretty crafty kinda guy. I liken him to the mad scientist with an uncanny bent for practical applications and execution.

After getting Bill's/DaNag's feedback I felt pretty confident that the Permatrim was a good way to go. I used it this past summer and fall and was very happy and impressed with it. I have a SE300 and a Stingray that are gathering dust as they look for a home. I won't need them anymore if some one else has a use for them.

Enjoy!
 
Woo hoo! Triple Brat Dorks!

I modified the first post in this thread to include the installation method I used - it differed slightly from the instructions included with the Permatrim.
 
I enjoy reading the input on this site because you people tend
to be very objective in your approach to stuff just like the
Permatrim. The Permadork was a really nice piece of work. :thup
One of the neatest things about the permatrim IMO is that
it sets right over the prop and is big enough to suppress the bulge
over the prop. The impression I get is that this should reduce the
slippage of the prop in the water, and provide more forward
motion. Feel free to tell me I'm out to lunch on this idea. This and
the added trim capabilities is why I purchased them for our boat.
I haven't had a chance to put them on yet, but will certainly
provide feedback when I do. :)
 
FDO, Jon! That's too cool.

Absolutely, ship the thing out to anyone who wants it. What someone ought to do is come up with a low-profile clamp gizmo of some sort so they can try it without drilling the holes. You already had holes in your A/V plate, and matched them to the Dork, so no problem. But others might get so many holes in the plate that their motor sinks.

To tell you the truth, I think the ability to flex is a very good thing. It kind of softens the stress on the cast aluminum A/V plate, which will not flex much even if it needs to. To make a guaranteed one out of that polycarbonate (same stuff as Lexan), it would have to be molded to shape to keep it from eventually breaking at the cuts, holes and bends. I bet the original PermaDork would make it a season or two, though.

From what Bill tells me, the genuine article is made out of 1/4" aluminum. Not much flex there, and a good bump from backing the trailer into a tree could cost a big check to Honda. Whatever you do, don't stand on the thing like the guy in the ad does. Cynthia could stand on it alright, but keep your butt off.

If a guy wanted to get rich, he could make the things out of 10ga stainless and custom fit them to each size/brand of motor to spread the attachment stress out. Of course, the people who bought them would have to be rich, too.

Did you notice any straight line steering differences? Like wanting to pull to one side or making it harder to turn one way than the other? As sensitive as those outboards are to a little tweak of the rudder skeg, I would think that the big wings of the foil could cause some problems if they were not identical in depth and area. There's no way I bent that piece of plastic junk perfectly, so maybe it isn't that critical. If all you boating pros keep raving about the performance, I see a stainless steel one on a Honda 130 somewhere in the future. Better stock up on toilet paper now, because I got a feeling the pulp mill prices are going to go up!

Glad to be able to return some of your help. For us working stiffs, $104 is a lot for an experiment. Especially when you probably have that much tied up in junked out hydrofoils that didn't work as wanted.

OK - I won't make fun of you if you buy one of them dorky lookin' PermaTrims.
 
Any thoughts on putting those gizmos on twins? Would there be room, dead ahead and on turns? How about full right/left rudder? I'd assume the right size for Honda 40/45/50 would be the next size down from the $104 model?

Charlie
 
katkt":3u3o3fhe said:
One of the neatest things about the permatrim IMO is that it sets right over the prop and is big enough to suppress the bulge over the prop. The impression I get is that this should reduce the slippage of the prop in the water, and provide more forward motion.
Click to expand...

Very good point. Makes a lot of sense.

Best of luck installing yours. You say "them", so are you talking twins? It will be interesting to here your performance comments.

Yeah - I kinda enjoy reading everyones stuff on this site, too!

Thanks,

Mike
 
Quote...Did you notice any straight line steering differences?

The boat pulled to the right only when I backed off the throttle quickly. I did leave my two portside weights at home (Cynthia and the 90lb kicker), so, leaning to the starboard side could of caused that.
 
Mike,

Yes, I went with the factory recommendation and installed
the twin 90 Hondas. I don't know why there would be a
problem with them on twins as per Charlie above. The forum
I was following before I bought mine, had alot of guys with
twins, and alot of them gage a boat by how long it takes to
break it, and if it will run 50.
One of the interesting side lines I was following had to do
with raising the motors a hole or two, to reduce drag. This is
apparently made possible because, the foil holds the water
over the prop better. Just throwing that out for thought.
Its my opinion but I would think that if the foil flexes you
probably aren't getting its real worth. They have been selling
them for awhile, if motors are being torn up I can't think of
anyone who would be bashful about getting the news out.

Gordon
 
I hope I'm not violating a rule here, but if you do a search for
The Hull Truth, scroll down to the vendors forums you'll
find a QandA with feed back under Permatrims, I had already
ordered some of the plastic whale tail thingies when I found
these.
This is as close to an endorsement as you'll get out of
me until I have a chance to install them and try them out.

Gordon :)

3rd Byte, I had to read that 3 times before it clicked,
I'm slow :mrgreen:
 
After installing my Permatrim a few weeks ago I finally got to give it a real try. (Last time out the water intake got clogged with sea grass and I lost one of the plastic intake screens - but that's another story.)

Although conditions were not the best for assessing any changes I could not tell that much difference. I did notice that at higher speeds if I trimmed up the boat would start to porpoise. I don;t think it did that with the smaller foil. Hs anyone else noticed this?

I did do some hard turns and it does seem that the stern will not slide or wash out with the permatrim.

Steve
 
Steve- I think the increased tendency to porpoise comes from the greater EFFECTIVE range of trim available with the hydrofoil. Although the angular range is the same, the foil increases the effect of the trim angle through the action of the foil plate. Thus you can trim the bow up enough to make it so light as to be unstable. (The plate gives you more at the other end of the trim range, too, to force down the bow.)

The lesser ability to slide or wash out the prop and lower end comes from the insulating effect of the plate above the prop and, in the case of the Permatrim, the turned down edges of the sides of the plate.

JMHO and not at all costing you $0.02 even!!! Joe.
 
seabran":1itbmo42 said:
I did notice that at higher speeds if I trimmed up the boat would start to porpoise.
Click to expand...

Can't remember, Steve - do you have trim tabs?

If so, make sure at higher speeds your engine is trimmed so the thrust line is parallel with the hull bottom - I've got a mental note on my engine trim guage where that is. Then use the tabs to adjust the bow height. I've never had a porpoising problem with my Permatrim/tab setup doing this.

If you don't have tabs, well...the TrimMasters are on sale. :mrgreen:
 
Bill - I do have the trim tabs. I have not really looked at the motor angle while on the trailer. I am wondering if you can tell when the thrust is parallel to the bottom when on the trailer? I don't think I could tell while motoring - by feel.

It seemed that my trim gage was just above the midpoint when it started the porpoising. I also wonder if the range of trim has been off set so that I will now need to run with trim set below gage midpoint for normal conditions.

Steve
 
Da Nag":2rw1ezld said:
If so, make sure at higher speeds your engine is trimmed so the thrust line is parallel with the hull bottom
Click to expand...

Is that how you meant to say that? I have found it to be the most efficient to keep the "thrust line" parallel with the water surface or slightly trimmed under. The hull line is usually up a bit in the front when on step.

Seabran":2rw1ezld said:
I don't think I could tell while motoring - by feel.
Click to expand...

On my CD22, the motor trim gage was pretty close to common sense acurate (~level at half scale). On the CD25, the transom angle is not as great, so the motor trim gage is essentially worthless, because the motor is always trimmed nearly full down. It doesn't tuck under much at all. The easiest way for me to tell if it is trimmed square to the water is to glance out the door at it. The top of the cowling is eyeball parallel to the prop shaft, and when at cruise I trim the motor so the line of sight over the cowl is parallel to the water. I like to use the tabs to set the hull attitude, and then trim the motor square to the water. Doing so gives me optimum economy.

I am going to try one of those PermaTrim jobs, I think. I need a little more lift aft without shoving the bow down more. I wonder if Jon still has the PermaDork?
 
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