PC-based Navigation/etc. vs. Dedicated Electronics?

I have been using a laptop for about 8 years with Captn SW and have not found the hardware/laptop to be an issue. However I have had more than my share of driver issues with the GPS interface. Enough that I would never consider it my primary navigation tool. Love the large screen and multi-purpose functionality but the "GPS not found" problem is a pain and can pop up without any warning. Works when I test it the day before I go out but bombs the next day type of problems, it is about 95 percent reliable. Have tried two different GPS interfaces PCMCIA and USB each has had their issues. My Furuno chart plotter has never had an issue and always works as does all of my other stand alone equipment.
Even with the problems I do like the laptop a lot, just not reliable enough to replace the stand alone systems.

I cannot envision having all my navigation (sonar, chartploter, radar, GPS) being handled by a laptop or networked device as a single point of failure.
Big fan of redundancy for nav equipment, I have two chart plotters (PC and Furuno, two VHF radios (ICOM handheld and ICOM fixed), three batteries, five GPS systems plus paper charts. The only non-redundant systems I have is the radar and sonar.

stevej
 
I love this thread! It really motivates me to distinguish between what I want and what I need. If money were not an issue I would buy a Tomcat with the electronics package that wannaboat described. That said, money is an issue -- in a big way (I'm a college teacher) so I'll describe my budget package. Keep in mind that I take three young boys with me into sometimes rough ocean conditions, so 'budget' should not be confused with cheap or marginal.

The boat is a '94 22 Cruiser that came with a Lowrance LMS-350A GPS/Sounder. A state of the art system for 1994. I keep it because it refuses to die, and has a dual frequency sonar that gives accurate data to 1500+ feet. That, and it contains a built-in paddle wheel speedometer. The GPS is 3 channel, so it is backup only and accurate to within maybe 500 feet. But, better than ded reckoning. The boat also has a fabulous compass (a midrange Ritchie -- state of the art in 1830), my primary nav tool, and a full set of current paper charts.

To that I've added my old 12 channel Garmin 48 handheld. That unit was state of the art in 1999, and continues to be bullet proof and very accurate. No chart plotting, just numbers. The combination of paper charts (assuming one consults them frequently), a parallel rule, a solid compass, and a reliable basic GPS creates the most accurate budget nav system.

But, since I also like electronics, I've run a serial cable from the Garmin to a cheap laptop. (My old laptop gave up the ghost after 5 years so I just replaced it with the most inexpensive one I could find -- a compaq running an Athlon X2 -- for $399.) I run an inexpensive e-nav program (Maptech's Offshore Navigator) and use free rastor e-charts downloaded from the NOAA site. I actually like the rastor charts because they are identical to the paper chart in content and appearance, so they are effectively the same charts I've been using for 30 years. The Offshore Navigator is a no-frills easy to use program that allows for preplanning, on the fly navigation, tracking, and all the basic electronic tools. Plus, since it runs on the laptop I have a 14" screen so I can actually see where I am. Obviously two 5" chartplotters would allow me to do the same thing (one at high resolution -- scaled way in and one scaled out) but for a lot more $$. I mount the laptop upside-down using a bracket with velcro and snaps under the dash in the entry to the v-berth (the graphics card has a function that allows me to rotate the image 180 degrees very easily). Looks better than it sounds, and it is quite functional. It does hang down so while it gives me great visibility it is in the way if someone needs to use the head while underway -- though I can just flip the monitor up out of the way. Trade-offs are part of the system I suppose.

Since buying the boat I've replaced the old West Marine VHF with a new low end ICOM M304, and the best antenna I could find (Mariner 8900). Both came in around $300. I replaced the antenna mount with a stainless mount after the existing cheap chrome mount failed in bumpy seas.

I just added an additional GPS -- the Garmin Colorado 400C. This is a great little handheld chartplotter that comes with coastal charts preloaded. The Garmin mounts by the steering wheel, and allows me to navigate with the ease of the built-in chartplotter, but of course the screen is very small and would not be an easy fit for use in waters without local knowledge. When I was in the San Juans over the summer the laptop plotter gave me detailed information at a glance -- the 400C would have required much more focus (literally) -- and constant zooming in and out. But for $300 it was a great addition. I also run the 400C to the DSC in the VHF.

I know this sounds complicated, but it actually all works well together, with appropriate redundancy, and at a fraction of the cost of the larger integrated systems. In my view, while I really want the upscale system for its ease of use, the cheaper systems are just as reliable. Possibly more so as they are stand alone systems which can be powered either through the boat's 12 v power or batteries, and though they work well together they do not depend on each other.

And, with the money I saved I just bought a new Yamaha EFI 90. Wahoo... now that's worth it's weight in gold (err.. electronics).

Of course, none of these things are reliable without some knowledge of navigation -- so I would recommend that anyone who has not yet done so consider taking a class.
 
I just love C-Brats.com! Great thoughts all!

Pardon me if I jump around a bit....

JamesTXSD":2xacrfrm said:
You may have to consider changing your screen name... Gottaboat?
Ha! :) Perhaps after the deal is done. Because of the Holidays, it'll likely not be in my name for another week or two.

It seems like I moved fast on all of this. In reality, I have wanted a real boat for over 20 years. And I have been lurking here for about a year. Notwithstanding my little short-lived Trophy distraction, I have known for quite some time it would be a C-Dory-something. Well, that, or a C-Ranger tug. :)

thataway":2xacrfrm said:
Again--think about how you use navigation instruments on the fly--you don't want to take hands off the helm/throttles, unless necessary.
Yes, I am concerned about this, but it is an issue with both PC-based and dedicated hardware solutions. On the PC, though, I would have the advantage of finding creative solutions to the problem. What would those be? Who knows? Maybe mount a little flipper switch behind the wheel or a big red "slap button" to change screens. At least the PC leaves my options open somewhat.

However, this still is really just one big experiment. If it works, it will be highly cost effective compared to my other plan. If not, then I'll find another use for the hardware and try to sell the software licenses (if possible).

tpbrady":2xacrfrm said:
It folds down flat in the tablet mode and fits well at the helm in a RAM mount even with a 12 inch display.
RAM mounts are great. I am a fan. Between your comments and Dr. Bob's earlier, I am leaning away from Touch.

BRAZO":2xacrfrm said:
I priced every thing out when I put together the electronics for our 2008 C-Dory 22 and it was cheaper to go with the Nobeltec Radar and buy two (2) Dell Mini 9 -- one for a quick swap backup if needed.
Hey Robert, how do you like the Nobeltec Radar? Aren't they all open arrays? I think open arrays look cool (in a nerdy sorta way), but wonder about how they would hold up over time.

BRAZO":2xacrfrm said:
Here is a link for the Logitech diNovo Mini
Yeah, that looks like it might do the trick.

timflan":2xacrfrm said:
On the software side, I recommend you look at the series Mark and Diana Doyle published over at MadMariner.
Nice site. :) I think Mark and Diana's work spawned the book mentioned above, yes?

journey on":2xacrfrm said:
Be delighted to see how his instrumentation turns out.
I will definitely keep all informed and post pictures as I progress.

Doryman":2xacrfrm said:
If you are considering a PC based solution for an integrated electronic helm station, consider also your skills as a hardware/software systems integrator.
In fact, that's one of the things that swayed me to try this. I am totally comfortable with such things.

stevej":2xacrfrm said:
I cannot envision having all my navigation (sonar, chartploter, radar, GPS) being handled by a laptop or networked device as a single point of failure.
I hear ya! I plan to have hand-held GPS/plotter and radio backups. And that Spot tracker thingy as well. :)

Thanks everyone...

---

mike
 
Dang Mike, if nothing else, you've learned how to use the "Quote" function on the site! If you're as handy with PCs as with that, go for it. I ordered a Dell Mini today, paid for the 1 business day shipping, only to find out afterwards that it won't ship till the 8th of Jan!! :x

If I'd have known that, I wouldn't have spent the extra 8 bucks!! :thup

Merry Christmas All!!

Charlie and Sally
 
BRAZO":2qy5uju3 said:
wannaboat":2qy5uju3 said:
Hey Robert, how much do you use the keyboard with the Admiral Max Pro software? I don't know where I would put the thing....

I don't use the keyboard that much, but I do use the mouse from time to time. We went with the Logitech diNovo Mini bluetooth keyboard/touchpad. I just mounted the Mini next to the helm seat and just flip it open when I need the keyboard or the touchpad. It is wireless with the bluetooth -- so no wires, etc.

Here is a link for the Logitech diNovo Mini

http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... ps-sellers

This is cool. I've been looking for something like this for awhile. Thanks for the link. I just ordered one. :)

Roger
 
SeaSpray":1w4frimf said:
With one of the PC based nav systems can you control an autopilot?


Yes you can. We have the RayMarine S1000 autopilot and it works great with the nav software. Instead of the autopilot getting the waypoint data from the GPS -- the nav software is sending out that data. The autopilot doesn't care and doesn't know how it is getting the data -- just that it is correctly sent.

Basically the nav software just acts as a central point that everything connects into -- then it sends out what it needs based on all the input.
 
wannaboat":17at6wga said:
Hey Robert, how do you like the Nobeltec Radar? Aren't they all open arrays? I think open arrays look cool (in a nerdy sorta way), but wonder about how they would hold up over time.


Ya, I agree -- I like the looks of the open array also -- but we have a Radome. We have the 2kw version which I don't think came in an open array. The 4kw do.

So far I'm impressed with the Nobeltec Radar -- but I only have limited experience with it. I installed it this fall and now the boat is in storage. I LOVE the number of options and the colors that it displays. It was a breeze to install -- hooks to the computer via USB (2kw version) or Cat-5 for the 4kw version.

I'm looking forward to Spring to get it back on the water and do some more messing around.
 
wannaboat":1i9enps5 said:
...
Would one of you TomCat owners please measure how wide and deep the space is atop the helm? I know it's an odd shape, but I am trying to get a feel for how large a monitor (or monitors) can be installed in there, perhaps on a pole mount....

I'm among those that wanted to keep the top of the helm clear for visibility. I followed Squidslayer's installation to put my chartplotter/radar monitor to the left of the helm. The thing thing I have on top of the helm is the compass. You can see pictures of my installation in my album.

I never even considered the laptop idea for an electronics setup. It seems there is an entire "underground" community (he he) that I never knew about here!

I would be curious to see a pc/laptop based setup. It is critical to limit the distance and direction you need to move your eyes from the helm to get navigation information. There would have to be a dedicated flat screen monitor near the helm for this to be usable in my opinion. Then how would you change information? When I'm cruising I frequently change the range of my radar/chartplotter. When approaching a busy port I reduce the range, when cruising in more open areas I increase the range. Sometimes bouncing in seas it takes some effort, and sometimes a few tries to make the change even with my 10.5" Furuno monitor.
 
matt_unique":1g8xkn2a said:
...I followed Squidslayer's installation to put my chartplotter/radar monitor to the left of the helm.
Hmmm. How did you mount it there? Surely it is not just hanging from that clip?

Do you find that's a little far to look down then back up?

And do you bonk your head on it getting out of the berth? :)

---

mike
 
the PC goes into an enclosed cabin, and doesn't get salt spray, nor large shock loadings.

You need to come for a ride with me. This is the main reason that I will not use a lap top. I do not beleive that they could handle the pounding I take when fishing sometimes. I just can't beleive you guys use these things. My father has pc based system in his boat, 44ft twin two stateroom 8knot tank, and it work for him but even on a really bad day he is not going to get pounded. And how do you switch screens? With a mouse or a ball? I cant get my mouse on the right icon on my lap top half the time. In a 4 ft chop with the wind on my side? no way. Give be a big soft button any time.
I dont mean to be a party pooper but I think this thread needed one nay sayer in a sea for nerds.

Heres how I run my c-80 (not the best system any more) while cruising and fishing. In cruise mode I run three screens. One half screen with a 4 to 8 mile setting with the radar over lay. one 1/4 screen with a 1/4 mile range with no over lay and one 1/4 screen with a depth finder. while cruising its half chart plotter and half fishfinder. If in the fog I dump the small chart plotter and run radar only on that box. One good thing to do if you are not experinced with radar. run it all the time. I never turn mine off. If you get use to it in good weather you will trust it in bad weather. I have noticed on the rare sunny day here on the sound I can see boats on the radar before I see then in the glare of the sun.
 
starcrafttom":2n7d67su said:
I dont mean to be a party pooper but I think this thread needed one nay sayer in a sea for nerds.
Ha! :lol: Opposing opinions are good -- they make us think. :)

Yes - the mousing around trying to click an icon in rough chop is a problem. I am determined to solve that. Not sure yet how, but it is an issue that needs to be overcome. And I have pretty much given up on the touchscreen idea.

---

mike
 
wannaboat":21oiuqi8 said:
matt_unique":21oiuqi8 said:
...I followed Squidslayer's installation to put my chartplotter/radar monitor to the left of the helm.
Hmmm. How did you mount it there? Surely it is not just hanging from that clip?

Do you find that's a little far to look down then back up?

And do you bonk your head on it getting out of the berth? :)

---

mike

I fabricated the mount you see to support the left side. I actually made that from the mount that came with the unit. A Dremel tool and color matched paint did the trick! For the right side I drilled through the helm console area. I have a bolt and and rubber pad supporting each side of the unit. It is solid as a rock.

You definitely have to remember - and remind anyone else going into the berth to avoid bumping their head but I prefer to have a clear helm. It's quick and easy for me to glance down, change screens, etc.

I will reiterate that I too am curious how the PC based crew would address the screen changing problem. My soft buttons, mouse track ball, and knob are pretty good size on my Furuno rig and in bouncing seas try to hold your hand/finder steady! Ha ha - it takes a few tries sometimes - aim carefully - etc.
 
I'll take a crack at the screen changing and control issue of a PC. First I don't change screens very often and when I do it is to zoom in and out most of the time. A trackball with a scroll wheel works very well for this, better than my Lowrance controls. With a 12 inch screen you really see a lot of chart. Next I don't do overlays of radar. It is on it's own screen as is the depth sounder. I am feeding depth information from the sounder along with GPS data to Coastal Explorer where it is displayed in a data panel to one side.

There are two reasonable solutions to the control of the PC I have found. One is a wireless hand held mouse and the other is a trackball. I have been on quite a few military planes with advanced radar systems and they all use trackballs so they can be manipulated in turbulence. With my hand on a trackball fixed on the helm, I can work with the PC very easily. It is much easier to use than my Lowrance in rough conditions, especially when you need to enter a lat/long to go to a specific point because someone is out of fuel. Bring up the virtual keyboard on the screen, move the cursor over the numbers and click. Then click the go to icon and the course is laid out. Maybe the Garmin or RayMarine systems are easier to use than my Lowrance but I don't know the answer to that.

On the durability side, we'll see on that. The RAM mount I use for my PC does a very good job of shock absorbing. The better made notebook and tablet PC's are also designed to minimize the risk of damage from being dropped.

The only downside of a PC, is you need to be a little bit of a geek to deal with some of the problems that can occur. However, today there is a little geek in all of us.
 
journey on":1yz4b6fm said:

First, the future of navigational displays lies in PC based navigation.
When Raymarine gets $2800 (and that's just the display) for a 12" display, which will be soon outmoded by their newest creation, a $700 Toshiba (Frys ad,) look good, with $400 for the basic software. Over the last 10 years, we've used Toshibas in the South Pacific, Alaska, and in the toughest environment of all: the East Coast. No problems, except the computer got outmoded. If you want to back it up, get a $400 SS unit. Remember the PC goes into an enclosed cabin, and doesn't get salt spray, nor large shock loadings.
Boris
*emphasis mine.
I agree with your first comment, Boris but I have some serious reservations about the last. Dunno about you, but I've gotten a face full of spray many times - and that's inside the San Diego Bay! Leave that center window open or even the side windows can do that pretty often. And I've had some rude shocks from attention lapses and major wakes in the same area. I can't imagine crossing the Columbia Bar with a current PC based system without a military ruggedized laptop.

Would I like to use a laptop based system such as what's been suggested here? Betyerass I would. On the other hand, I'm in a small boat either on big water or crowded water and I definitely put visual before electronic in those situations. If I had a helmsman or a knowledgeable mate with nerd-like characteristics I'd feel good about my latest and greatest system. I don't and I don't imagine many of us do, so it's KISS for me when it comes to boats under 40 ft. or so. Trust your eyes before trusting a screen is my basic attitude at sea, and I ain't too good at multitasking eyeballs.

One Nerd "characteristic" is the fun and focus of developing, troubleshooting, installing and debugging a system - wherever it's at. Once done - a true nerd either walks away or starts a major "upgrade". This thread is fun to read for sure, but in reality it only applies to a small number of C-Dory owners. VERY enjoyable.

Carry on

Don
 
starcrafttom":3kaqv28b said:
I have noticed on the rare sunny day here on the sound I can see boats on the radar before I see then in the glare of the sun.

I'm new to radar and hadn't thought of that, thank's for the tip.
Now, if we can find a way to make kayaks more visible...
 
Sneaks":3gl7fr6v said:
journey on":3gl7fr6v said:

First, the future of navigational displays lies in PC based navigation.
When Raymarine gets $2800 (and that's just the display) for a 12" display, which will be soon outmoded by their newest creation, a $700 Toshiba (Frys ad,) look good, with $400 for the basic software. Over the last 10 years, we've used Toshibas in the South Pacific, Alaska, and in the toughest environment of all: the East Coast. No problems, except the computer got outmoded. If you want to back it up, get a $400 SS unit. Remember the PC goes into an enclosed cabin, and doesn't get salt spray, nor large shock loadings.
Boris
*emphasis mine.
I agree with your first comment, Boris but I have some serious reservations about the last. Dunno about you, but I've gotten a face full of spray many times - and that's inside the San Diego Bay! Leave that center window open or even the side windows can do that pretty often. And I've had some rude shocks from attention lapses and major wakes in the same area. I can't imagine crossing the Columbia Bar with a current PC based system without a military ruggedized laptop.


Don


That just goes to show you that C-Brats need to come to Florida where all we have is SUNNY SKYS and Calm SEAS. :D... Well, except for maybe today... :xnaughty
 
Tom how do physically feed GPS info to your laptop (USB)? I've downloaded the trial version of Coastal Explorer and I can't get it to recognize the DeLorme USB GPS I have. The same GPS puck works fine with the Streets and Maps program. It supposedly has NMEA 0183 output according to the manufacturer.
 
Several people, and Sneaks, you're one of them, have mentioned salt water spray and shock as a deterrent to laptop use. And the topic of the man/machine interface has been brought up.

In summary, my experience with running a laptop on a boat, over a period on 15 years has been positive. Reliability has been good and interfacing dependable. Again, it's the future.

Well, I can't quote numbers as to shock, but during our cruises, the laptop has always been with us, albeit most of the time in the V-berth. And the rest of the time it's been hooked to the hockey puck GPS and located on the cabin table. It has never died. I think that the shock that we experience falling off waves is amplified in our minds by the noise as well as the relative calm in between the shocks/crashes. After perusal of all the posts in this topic, no-one has mentioned that a PC failed during operation due to shock. Or for any other reason. Glad to have someone point out where I am wrong.

As to controlling the laptop, I submit that it's no more difficult than operating a dedicated marine display. In rough seas I need to spend full time operating the boat. If I need some information from the displays, there isn't too much time to change the display. I depend on the co-captain, Judy, to run the displays and give me the required information. She has always been happy to do so, sometimes more information than I want, though always good info.

As for water coming in the front window, some of us would solve that problem by running with the window closed. But to each his own.

Boris
 
I'm new to radar and hadn't thought of that, thank's for the tip.
Now, if we can find a way to make kayaks more visible...

When we get in to the fog I set one of the radar screens on the closest setting. 1/16 mile I think? then turn up the gain and adjust the power. I leave the chart plotter with overlay on the other window at 2 miles in case of fast movers. I have been able to pick up kayaks several times. I have even been able to pick up the blow from a whale for a second. enought time to put one end of "ruler" on the spot so I know how far I really am to them. Need to stay over a hundered yards. I had one guy tell me I was to close and we were really 400 yards away. Most people can not judge distance on the water at all, they just think they can. Your radar will do a lot more then you think if you take it off of auto.
 
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