Outfitting A CRanger-25

D

dtol

New member
I am left with some questions as I look through the factory options and other items needed to outfit a new boat. I am struggling through and learning a lot. I still need help though. I thought I might use this topic to ask a few questions about things I can't find out for my self.

My dory is 13 years old so I don't know much about the new standard and optional stuff supplied on the new dorys. Some of the key decisions to make are about whether I should supply and install something my self to save money or get better equipment.
First couple of questions:

1. What is the model of the Wallas stove supplied as an option through the factory.
2. How much fuel is it necessary to carry and in what kind of container?
3. Is the weight of the diesel needed less than a propane tank? A seperate propane heater would be needed as well to serve that function provided by the Wallas.
4. The refer is Norcold. What is the interior capacity? A freezer would be more functional than a fridge for me and I was told that you could just turn the fridg up enough. Then I was told that it might keep things frozen but not likely to freeze anything hard not already frozen. If I need a fridge, it might be easier to set the freezer a little warmer for those times.
5. The standard options say that a 15amp 3 bank battery charger and isolator are provided. What is the manufacturer of the charger and is there any more information about it. The CR-25 comes with 4 batteries for diesel starting, thrusters, house and windlass. And if you add an inverter and powered davit, and electric down riggers then even 4 batteries might not be enough. It certainly seems that the 15 amp charger wouldn't be enough. It might be better to waive the factory supplied charger and put in a good inverter charger combination with built in smarts.

These are only a few things I have been struggleing with, but, I have also been successfull in in some areas in getting enough information to make some good decisions as I order and outfit this new boat. The technical threads on C-Brats has been and is tremendous help. I don't plan to dwell on the subjects of these questions because I am sure I will have more.

Thanks for your help.
6.
 
The model Wallas is either the 25 or the 25+106, I can't tell the difference from the Wallas site.

The Tug Wallas has a 3 gallon tank, which from my understanding is more than enough for a year, never mind a season.

Don't know the relative weights, so no idea of the propane weight issue.

For the refrigerator, it seems to be bigger than the one supplied on a C-Dory 25, but I'll E-Mail you the model when I can get into the boat next. We stored a little less than 1 1/2 cases of water bottles for the boatshow in ours.

The Battery Charger is a "Guest".. Our boat has 3 Batteries, 2 house and one starting. The Bow and Stern Thrusters only promise a minute of operation, they are all electric. Not sure why the battery charger would have to be different as it is working most when you're plugged into shore power. And it doesn't look like the factory supplied is an option, although I guess you could ask for a different set up, unless you are talking about having the generator running and I'm missing the point entirely, which certainly happens from time to time.
Hope this was of some help.
Fair winds...
John
Y-Landing
(hull #01)
 
The R-25 Ranger Raymarine C-120 electronics package from the factory only includes GPS with fish finder, illuminated compass, and VHS radio, but no radar, chartplotter, or auto pilot. Besides radar and GPS, what other electronics should I have installed for cruising on Puget Sound and the Inland Passage?

R-25 on order.
 
I can only comment based on experience, including the Tom Cat. If you want an inverter, then add an inverter with charging capacity--geared to the types and capacity of the batteries which you put on the boat.

If you just sit at a dock, or if you run the boat's engine long enough each day to charge up the batteries 100% (which often not useually happen with alternator regulators and some battery chargers)--the factory type of charger will be enough.

However to answer the point that New Hampshire Guy brings up about charging capacity--if one is cruising, he often spends several days at a time in one place at anchor. It is not effecient to run the main engine to charge batteries, so a generator with high effeciency, high capacity battery charger is important. The largest of the Guest chargers (I believe the ones which the factory uses is 5/5/5 amps)) is 20/5/5 amps. If 20 amps is going to the house battery, and you use 100 amps in a day, this means that 5+ hours will have to be spent running a generator to charge the house bank. We elected to stay with the factory 5/5 amp Guest charger and added a Truecharge, AGM compatable, with temperature compensation of 20/20 amps.

How would one use 100 amps? If the refigerator uses 4 amps an hour, than is 96 amps--then throw in a few lights, perhaps a depth finder or GPS for anchor alarm and you have 100 amps. It is not unusual for cruising boats to use upward of 200 amps a day. The main battery bank should be sized to be of amp hours which will be no more than 50% drained at max. Thus if the daily load is 100 amps, you need 200 amp battery capacity. The Inverter chargers come in sizes up to in excess of 130 amps an hour. That is too big for 200 amps, but would be satisfactory for 600 amp battery bank--which is common in cruising boats.
So I might size the charger to provide 25% of the battery capacity per hour, thus cutting genset run time to two hours a day. (This makes certain assumptions about the types of batteries, temperatures etc).

Refigerator vs Freezer. We did not order the factory refigerator, but elected for the larger Norcold top loading chest freezer--this can be used either as a freezer or refigerator, but requires building a roll out shelf to allow access to the top (or some other way of opening the top easily).
We have used the chest freezer for over 30 years and have been very happy with them. But they stow more like an ice chest--no "shelves".

We then use an effecient ice chest for soft drinks and veggies etc--but the main dishes and meat (plus fish caught) go in the freezer.

Our experience is that the weight of diesel (actually kerosene) is much less than the propane tanks. The weight of the fuel is close to the same, but the containers are much heavier). One advantage of the Wallas, is that it is vented to the exterior. Be very cautious with any heater which is not vented to the exterior--no matter what the manufacture says about using in enclosed environments!

Hope these thoughts help!
 
The 25' Tug Reefer is a Norcold DE-490 with a 2.8 Cu Ft capacity (with freezer).

The C-120 PKG on my sales sheets (and boat) does include the Radar, (and chart plotter if it is what I think it is), but no Autopilot, which is easily installed on a Raymarine System. My paperwork all comes from the factory so that is the latest info that I have available, and the factory has already installed a couple of Autopilots, so ask even if it is not listed as an option. I don't know the Autopilot cost.

Should have more test drives and more experiences this weekend. Any questions just ask here or by PM or E-Mail. I'll be double checking my speed numbers too, but myself and the owner on different days got the same results for cruise (16-18mph, not knots) and WOT (21 and I got 22mph for a bit, but it was flat and I was by myself).

All the inverter/electric conversation is a bit over my head, so excuse my silence on the matter. Just not in my range of experience.

Fair Winds...
John
 
New Hampshire Guy, I think it was Mark Twain that said " It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
 
Gotta agree with Mr. New Hampshire Guy. If you really don't know the answers and say so - folks ain't gonna ask.

We've got lots of folks here at the bar who know much about electronics and are willing to share. And a few like me who don't know and are willing to share :sad

Dusty
 
The information provided so far has been extremely helpful. I have decided to forgo the factory installed refer and acquire a Norcold 60 qt chest refrigerator/freezer. I think that I may be able to cut in to the regular refer location and build in a sliding shelf that would allow the lid to clear and have only about an inch and a half sticking out from the cabinet face. Thats not much more than the existing flush mount and should look good if trimmed up nice.

The chest R/F can be set up so that it is removable and can be taken out of the boat when on day trips for fishing thereby saving 70 lbs.

I also decided not to get a combo inverter charger and upgrade the existing charger and install a stand alone inverter. My next reply will lay out my options for electrical for you folks to evaluate. I'm interested to see how I did.
 
The freezer idea sure sounds great. I've had the factory installed refrig. on two boats - handy for sure, but they take up a whole lot of space for the little interior. I've been learning a whole lot about this electrical stuff from Thataway, Sneaks and others... and I thought I knew everything :wink:

Dusty
 
Batteries

Bank 1 Start, 900-1000A Cranking power to start Diesel and kicker

Bank 2 House, two type 31. This will run:

DC - Refer, Electronics, house lights, running lights, hot water heater, Wallas stove
Inverter - TV/DVD, Microwave, Hair Dryer, Coffee Maker, ??

BanK 3 Big Stuff, one type 31. This will run:
Windlass, Thrusters, Pot Puller, Down Riggers. Could combine with Bank 2 if we anchor up for a while and know that we won't be using power hungry equipment without running for a while.

I think I might be short one battery. Could be trolling all day on the kicker using power with no input. I can imagine scenarios where power is used and not replaced and a larger array could also reduce the chances of getting caught short on power.

Charger I would like to replace the factory charger 15 amp with the new Xantrex XC3012 3-Bank Charger. There is also a 50 amp model but using it on batteries less than 100 Ah isn't recommended. The charger can be set to handle batteries of a different type on each bank and has the capability to monitor tempereture on each bank.

Alternator Regulator This "Dory" is a different beast so an alternator regulator needs to be considered for the alternator on the diesel, if it doesn't already have one. The Volvo Diesel (if it becomes a reality in the CR-25) has a 150 amp alternator.

( The problem with this is you never know what you are really buying until you get it. Cdory doesn't put much real information in their sales literature.)

Control and Monitoring 3 bank switch isolator and combiner. Don't know what is supplied by the factory.
3 bank volt meter and charge level. The charger comes with a remote but it might be better to have a better one.
Conbination inverter and charger control and monitoring station on the dash. I'm asking for help here. Don't know what actually would be needed here.

Inverter Xantrex Prosine 1000W with transfer switch. It passes by 15amps when the AC comes on. I was debating on the 1800 but many seem to be happy with the 1000 and we won't be that much different in our power use from the inverter.

Please tell me what you think and let me know if you have different suggestions or ways to do this. I'm looking forward to not making a mistake. Too expensive.
 
Sawdust":13e9moxy said:
I've been learning a whole lot about this electrical stuff from Thataway, Sneaks and others... and I thought I knew everything :wink:
Click to expand...
Dusty – you know the difference between an intelligent person and a stupid person?

The intelligent person knows he does not know everything in his field of expertise and is willing to listen to anyone with an commonsense idea.

The stupid person thinks he can’t learn anything from someone less educated than himself in his field of study.

I do believe you fall into the former category.
 
Sounds good.

I have the frame and shelf done--except for paint--for the Norcold freezer and it works slick. I'll have the photos up in the next day or so. With 24" ball bearing runners, the entire chest comes right out into the isle and is easy to access. I can also add more foam/foil insullation on the outside--have not decided to do that yet or not. The freezer was down to 21 degrees this AM, even with the sun beating on the top and no air conditioning on. I will be putting a 12 volt computer fan to blow cool air into the bottom of the freezer, on a thermostat, located near the top of the motor/coil section.

I think that your electrical is good. The only reason to go with the inverter charger is to have the larger battery charger. Check out the reliability of the Xantrex charger & inverter. I like group 31 batteries, unless you are going to Golf carts. If you want to keep all batteries identical, then the Group 31 is probably the best way of going. I like the idea ablity of isolating house banks and have done this for some time.

What are you running off the inverter? The 1000 will not run the hair dryer--and may not run some of the larger microwaves. Consider at least one small inverter for charging rechargiables (not AA bats, since there are direct DC chargers for these)--and for a computer unless you have a DC to DC converter for the computer. I tend to go with larger inverters--but if you never need more than 1000 watts--then that will be most effecient.

The remote from the charger I have, only shows LED level ranges. I have the Blue Seas volt meter with a 4 way switch--gives excellent monitering--but not amp flow.

Most of the diesels have alternator regulators. You might want to upgrade, or even put on a second alternator with regulator--if you have the demand--especially if there is no generator carried and you want to run appliances off the inverter.
 
Thanks Bob

None of the specs I read about the inverter/chargers indicated that they did multi-bank charging. Sounds like it might be better to bite the bullet and go with the 50 amp charger and 1800W inverter.


Thanks again. Looking forward to seeing the pics of the refer set up.

dtol on Shadetree
 
dtol: Just a word about my experiences with alternator regulators. I tried a home grown one built in portland years ago and it was a piece of junk. Then I discovered the Balmars. They are one fine piece of equipment. Bulletproof. A Balmar alternator with external regulator will do a fine job for you if you are after lots of amps fast.
 
I found out that I can get Trojan Golf Cart Batteries here for $95 each. $400 for a bank of 4 isn't bad considering the 700 cycle life span and minutes on a bank like that.
 
At times we found that Sams had Trojans, but often they were Exide or Dunlap. The 4 golf carts are an excellent bank for an inverter and house use. This is what I used in both trawlers and long distance cruising motorsailors. The only question I would have in the C Ranger is the affect of weight--about 250 lbs, and of where to put the batteries.
There is enough weight to affect trim. If you are going to stay at displacement speeds then weight is not perticularly important--but all of the little things add up. For example the freezer weight is about 80 lbs, add in the frame it comes to about 120 lbs.--just keeps on adding up...
 
I hear you about the weight. However, the refer that comes with the boat is about 70lb and it is framed in as well. The boat also comes with 4 gp27 batteries from the factory as long as it has both thrusters (per Jeff Messmer) and that is about 200+ lbs there. However you are right, weight is a concern and it might be worth just putting in a set of two golf carts and a starter and experiment with the weight and power usage rather than plunking the whole works in the boat and finding out that there is a problem.

I still don't know what to do about battery and inverter control and monitoring and won't be able to make any determinations about that until I see what they install and if they will install the charger I want if I supply it.
 
I would consider doing what we did: continue to use the installed charger (in the Tom Cat case it is two 5 amp circuit charger)--In your case one 15 and 2 five amp circuits--then buy a second larger charger. We went with a 20/20 temperature compensated, but you may want larger or to use the inverter. Both the larger chargers and inverter chargers have control/monitering systems available as options.

I posted a description of the freezer frame and shelf under the galley section and photos in the Thataway album. The framing is considerably more than for the refigerator, but I did remove the two shelves, so probably the net gain is in the neighborhood of 35 to 50 lbs. So far I have only added one group 31 AGM battery. I may add a second. The Group 31 is charged and switched separately so it can run only the refigerator, or the refigerator and electronics and a couple of cig lighter plugs.

Have fun with the planning!
 
I'll add some observations here.

First and formost the electical system is just that...a system. Just as in a good sound system things have to balance and each component should relate to the others in the system in terms of quality and fuctionality and sizing; balance is everything.

I can put a lot of battery capacity (and weight) in a boat a simple as the C-Dory 25; as much as 400 or 500 amp-hours wouldn't be a real challenge. But...how are you going to charge them? On a lot of boats it's like installing an Olympic-sized swimming pool in the back yard and having someone hand you a garden hose to fill it with! At least in the case of the C-Ranger 25 there's a decent alternator supplying a charge.

dtol..your idea for the thrusters to see just one group 31 battery isn't the best solution. This is due to a thing called Peukert's Law which basically says the higher percentage of load you put on a battery the faster it discharges in an accelerating (exponential) manner. For instance...a 100 AH battery can deliver 5 amps for 20 hours but it can not deliver 20 amps for 5 hours (or even 4 hours!). This means you want heavy loads to see the largest pool of power available and typically when something like a windlass or thrusters are in operation as many batteries as practical should be paralleled to create a larger bank; the overall drain on the system is then less than on any individual battery.

This is also true of a charger by the way; one way of decreasing charge times is to increase the battery bank if the charger is sized correctly.

Something we often do with the C-Dory 25 is to use the factory installed charger for the starting battery (which typically shouldn't really need a charger much) and to install a larger charger for the house battery bank (typically two group 31 batteries in parallel). The combination charger/inverter will charge this large bank quite nicely. If you're replacing the factory standard charger altogether many of the inverter/chargers have an "echo" charger specifically designed to charge a starting battery in addition to the large house bank.

There a bit of a bump in the road here in trying to sort out loads. First, you want the starting battery totally isolated from every other system in the boat. Secondly, you want all the electronics and sensitive items on the boat on a house battery that does not see spikes in the voltage; this means not tied into the starting system and not tied into the batteries (at least not continuously) that supply power to the windlass and thrusters in particular.

To accomplish all that really means 3 battery banks unless you're willing to turn off all your electronics each time you use the windlass or thrusters.

You could use the layout you suggest if you have a parallel switch between Bank 2 and Bank 3 IF you don't try and run the windlass and/or thrusters with your electronics turned on. That's a difficult thing to remember always so I'd suggest adding a battery to Bank 3 and letting that bank handle the large loads all by itself. I'd use a Voltage Sensing Relay (Blue Seas Systems makes some very nice ones) to pass power from Bank 2 to Bank 3 when charging...this will work underway off the alternator or off the charger when on shorepower. The VSR will not allow Bank 3 to pull from Bank 2 (which is what we want to keep the electroncis and such from getting hit with voltage spikes). At least in this setup you wouldn't have to deal with a manual switch and keeping track of the last time you charged Bank 3 (and for how long and such).

That last may be a bit confusing because I have have picture of the system in my head and you may not. What it boils down to is having (say) two paralleled group 31 batteries in Bank 2 and two in Bank 3. What goes between the two banks is a VSR (Voltage Sensing Relay) so that once Bank 2 hits its target voltage (typically 13.7 volts or so) the VSR will kick in and send charge power to Bank 3 automatically. You don't "need" a manual switch between Bank 2 and Bank 3 but you could install one to physically parallel the two banks if you ever feel the need. If you plan to do so often I'd suggest something like the Blue Seas Systems E-switch which is really a remote controlled battery switch (it's a solenoid with a small toggle on the dash or somewhere convenient). With this arrangement (with the E-switch or manual) Bank 3 essentially becomes the "add-on" bank when you want to have more capacity for extended stays.

Because of the VSR if you're charging your main house bank (Bank 2 in this case) you'll automatically charge Bank 3 without the need for a multiple bank charger.

Be aware that some of the smaller inverters with built-in transfer switches will only transfer 15-amps. This means that you can not just bring shorepower to the inverter and then to the main AC distribution panel; you have to split the loads and provide a sub-panel for the loads the inverter will see. For this reason it's advantageous to choose an inverter than can transfer all 30-amps (and avoid the sub-panel situation). The other advantage is having an inverter than can (when necessary) handle larger loads. This can really turn into a complex issue since you don't want to be able to source two AC supplies at the same time. If you can't transfer all 30-amps through the inverter then you also need to provide a source selector switch so that shorepower and inverter power are not both available to the AC distribution panel at the same time.

I hope I haven't made this too confusing. There are about as many ways to implement electrical systems on boats as there are boats out there and even "experts" have varied opinions about what's best. Customers also have varied needs and ideas about what they want so a lot of thought and customization goes into each individual system.
 
I don't know about the rest of you in the Pacific NW, but having Les in our midst with his knowledge of boat systems is a wonderful close resource. And with the internet all the rest of the world actually has it also.
 
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